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Hakstol experiment over


trevluk

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If they were actually competitive in these games I would agree that its a learning experience. Losing like this is not that. The Pens aren't even close to their A game, so learning what it takes is not on the table. the only people learning anything are the fans and Hextall. We are learning that this team making the playoffs is a joke. Sorry, but the lottery pick would be far more beneficial than this. and unless you're an accountant at Spectacor you're an idiot if you don't believe that. But everybody gets a ribbon, so it doesn't matter.

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9 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Awesome. More valuable playoff humiliation. All part of the master plan. Everybody gets a ribbon. we all played nice with others. No homework. no name calling. No hitting. We even had a nice nap. And a nice healthy snack I'm sure. Whoever thinks making the playoffs benefits this team going forward is an idiot.

 

I'll sign up for that list.  I'll double down.  Whomever doesn't is a histrionic imbecile badly in need of a xanax and a little perspective. 

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So Neuvirth was ready to go and Hakstool decided to put that stiff Elliot out there?

 

Either Hakstool is the worst coach ever, or he secretly is a Penguins fan.

 

In either case it's time to flush Hak-Stool.

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I'm not sure what people thought Hakstol was supposed to skate last night.

 

Our bottom 6 is weak and we lost our first line center.    An already bad matchup became worse.   I would not have had Jake on the top line.   I would have had TK so there was someone who would shoot.    But it wouldn't really have changed much because...

 

NONE OF THEM CAN PLAY GOAL.  

 

This is David against Goliath.   I'm going to repeat what I said earlier:   It's a team a year ahead of schedule with no goalie.   What's more to the point is that it's a team that made it a year ahead of schedule at least in part because a couple other teams came back to them (NYR, Florida, Detroit, Montreal, Ottawa).   

 

Of course the playoffs are valuable.   In several ways.   For the players, they get a taste of what it takes and a realization they're not there yet.    It'll take all in.      For the coach, hopefully he'll learn how NOT to do it.    For management, you need a damn goalie.   You need a complete team.    The latter I think they know.  You just cannot do that all at once.  It's coming.   And they have to really strongly consider whether they have the right coach.   

 

I think he gets next year yet.   But if they go into the playoffs next year and see similar results (of things Hak can control.  Goalie isn't really fair when he has his choice between chicken dung, pig slime, and horseshit) then they let him go.   But if they don't make the playoffs this year we push all these things back.  NEXT year he and the team would have gotten the "first year" mulligan and the following year to proof it.   

 

So, of course there's benefit.  

 

And I really don't know what the hell all the bridge jumpers were expecting.   We have a team finally waking from a coma and you're all hand-wringing and jumping ship because the patient can't run a marathon before going through some therapy.

 

If you're leaving just as there's good things coming, that's fine.  That's your prerogative (it's also my prerogative to think you're an idiot).   But find another team and stay away then.    Maybe Vancouver.   Try Vancouver.   You can have a pissy party and burn a bus.

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13 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

So Neuvirth was ready to go and Hakstool decided to put that stiff Elliot out there?

 

Either Hakstool is the worst coach ever, or he secretly is a Penguins fan.

 

In either case it's time to flush Hak-Stool.

 

Maybe. 

 

Maybe the thought was if they put him in there after playing 30 minutes in the last 2-3 months when already down 2-1 in the playoffs and it goes badly that there would be a mob with pitchforks between the building and his car.   

 

Starting him would have been the wrong play.   The problem was, he didn't legitimately have the right play.

 

That's not to say I don't think your complaint is valid.   I think it is.   But I think it goes to a general complaint that is forming:   Hakstol makes decisions based on a desire to not lose rather than to throw in and play to win.   I think that's a dangerous approach, and I think it's starting to permeate this team.    I think it is very likely the reason you see a game like last night (the series, really) where you see very low shot counts.   They're circling the wagons and trying to not lose rather than raining shots.    The problem--with this team, in particular--with this approach is that we have a very young, still not ready for prime time defense and a not very responsible forward group capable of playing that kind of game.  It's dangerous for any team, but it can work in a 1-2-2 or 1-3-1 system we're not playing.   And it's further doomed to failure when you have a merry-go-round of incapable goaltenders who continually allow harmless shots to turn the light on.

 

Until or unless this coach changes his approach and plays to win -- something I don't think he's constitutionally capable of -- and some decent goaltending behind a continually growing defense, this is what you'll see.     

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10 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Whoever thinks making the playoffs benefits this team going forward is an idiot.

 

How exactly then did it hurt them? 

 

Would we have seen first round pick Nolan Patrick as the starting center if not for these playoffs?

We may have thought that our goaltending, for the most part, was seemingly adequate throughout the season, but the playoffs displayed how really horrible it is.

Playing against a mature team like the Penguins shows the inexperience of the majority of the Flyers roster,  how our defense is too small and not strong enough.  It shows how weak our 3rd and 4th lines really are.

These last few games have shown the lack of creativity and poor execution of the PP.

 

Yeah, playing against the Stanley Cup Champs is painful to watch but it also makes really clear what must change moving forward.

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9 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm not sure what people thought Hakstol was supposed to skate last night.

 

Our bottom 6 is weak and we lost our first line center.    An already bad matchup became worse.   I would not have had Jake on the top line.   I would have had TK so there was someone who would shoot.    But it wouldn't really have changed much because...

 

NONE OF THEM CAN PLAY GOAL.  

 

This is David against Goliath.   I'm going to repeat what I said earlier:   It's a team a year ahead of schedule with no goalie.   What's more to the point is that it's a team that made it a year ahead of schedule at least in part because a couple other teams came back to them (NYR, Florida, Detroit, Montreal, Ottawa).   

 

Of course the playoffs are valuable.   In several ways.   For the players, they get a taste of what it takes and a realization they're not there yet.    It'll take all in.      For the coach, hopefully he'll learn how NOT to do it.    For management, you need a damn goalie.   You need a complete team.    The latter I think they know.  You just cannot do that all at once.  It's coming.   And they have to really strongly consider whether they have the right coach.   

 

I think he gets next year yet.   But if they go into the playoffs next year and see similar results (of things Hak can control.  Goalie isn't really fair when he has his choice between chicken dung, pig slime, and horseshit) then they let him go.   But if they don't make the playoffs this year we push all these things back.  NEXT year he and the team would have gotten the "first year" mulligan and the following year to proof it.   

 

So, of course there's benefit.  

 

And I really don't know what the hell all the bridge jumpers were expecting.   We have a team finally waking from a coma and you're all hand-wringing and jumping ship because the patient can't run a marathon before going through some therapy.

 

If you're leaving just as there's good things coming, that's fine.  That's your prerogative (it's also my prerogative to think you're an idiot).   But find another team and stay away then.    Maybe Vancouver.   Try Vancouver.   You can have a pissy party and burn a bus.

 

 

 

 

G should have been at center Rux.    With Couts out it is so easy to shut down one line and that is all they have to do... 

 

By keeping G on the wing it also further exposes how dreadfully slow this team is.... 

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1 minute ago, hf101 said:

 

How exactly then did it hurt them? 

 

Would we have seen first round pick Nolan Ryan as the starting center if not for these playoffs?

We may have thought that our goaltending, for the most part, was seemingly adequate throughout the season, but the playoffs displayed how really horrible it is.

Playing against a mature team like the Penguins shows the inexperience of the majority of the Flyers roster,  how our defense is too small and not strong enough.  It shows how weak our 3rd and 4th lines really are.

These last few games have shown the lack of creativity and poor execution of the PP.

 

Yeah, playing against the Stanley Cup Champs is painful to watch but it also makes really clear what must change moving forward.

 

 

Nolan Ryan plays hockey? 

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Just now, murraycraven said:

 

G should have been at center Rux.    With Couts out it is so easy to shut down one line and that is all they have to do... 

 

By keeping G on the wing it also further exposes how dreadfully slow this team is.... 

2

 

That would have been what I expected.  But then it gave Patrick a chance to play on the top line, a line I never would have expected him to play on this season.  And you know, other than him needing to get stronger, he was one of the best players on the ice last night.

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9 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

 

 

G should have been at center Rux.    With Couts out it is so easy to shut down one line and that is all they have to do... 

 

By keeping G on the wing it also further exposes how dreadfully slow this team is.... 

 

I don't disagree, actually.

 

On the other hand, it gave the opportunity to see Patrick at 1C in the playoffs.   He may actually have had the best game among the Flyers.   I realize that's the equivalent of saying he was the least burned of the explosion victims, but....     He actually did acquit himself well.

 

But say you put G at center.  That does make you stronger down lineup at the center position.    But now you have bottom six wingers moving up to accommodate.   And you'd probably still end up with TK on the wrong side as a result.  Po-tay-toe patatta.   

 

I could argue this one either way and would if I didn't think it was entirely moot.    Giroux at center or wing or congress, you'd still have Manning inexplicably out there killing penalties.  You'd still have Gudas out there doing nothing in particular.    You'd still have Laughton sucking up the world (he was TERRIBLE, and he's been bad), etc.   And, the clincher, you'd still have feces-du-jour in net.    It wouldn't have changed anything other than where Giroux would have been on the ice when the simple flip shot was going into our net.

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16 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I don't disagree, actually.

 

On the other hand, it gave the opportunity to see Patrick at 1C in the playoffs.   He may actually have had the best game among the Flyers.   I realize that's the equivalent of saying he was the least burned of the explosion victims, but....     He actually did acquit himself well.

 

But say you put G at center.  That does make you stronger down lineup at the center position.    But now you have bottom six wingers moving up to accommodate.   And you'd probably still end up with TK on the wrong side as a result.  Po-tay-toe patatta.   

 

I could argue this one either way and would if I didn't think it was entirely moot.    Giroux at center or wing or congress, you'd still have Manning inexplicably out there killing penalties.  You'd still have Gudas out there doing nothing in particular.    You'd still have Laughton sucking up the world (he was TERRIBLE, and he's been bad), etc.   And, the clincher, you'd still have feces-du-jour in net.    It wouldn't have changed anything other than where Giroux would have been on the ice when the simple flip shot was going into our net.

 

Thankfully, I was out with friends last night and was spared the emotional drain of yet another clinical loss to the Pens. 

 

But, when I see Giroux at -3 for the game, -7 for the series with 1 single point to show for it.... it's more than just his line being neutralized and ineffective. He is being completely dominated, moreso than other lines. 

 

Yes, his line faces Crosby, but, whoa, he's getting abused in this series. Kinda makes me sad that we don't have a player who can elevate his game and come through, even in a losing cause. 

 

I will cut him some slack, though... Not many players would come out ahead in that matchup either. 

 

It's just that there's not a single player who's leading the charge, and that is more of a red flag for me. 

 

You know what? Maybe signing Tavares isn't crazy after all. 

 

Trade Voracek and Simmonds, and sign Tavares and Karlsson. 

 

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1 minute ago, brelic said:

Trade Voracek and Simmonds, and sign Tavares and Karlsson. 

 

I'm okay with the first part.   I don't trade them just to trade them, but I think the return could be valuable.

 

I'm not sure about Tavares, to be honest.  He'd be coming from very similar to what we currently have here (Lousy goaltending, meh wingers, shaky defense, in-over-his-head coach).    I don't think he's necessarily moved heaven and earth there and I don't know that he's actually made his linemates better.  Of note, he's not playing right now.   I'm not really heavily arguing against it or anything, but I'm not sure he wouldn't end up being another huge contract we wouldn't end up regretting.

 

Karlsson is Karlsson and hard to argue against, but I'm not sure there either.   We have people coming, but it would be insane to think he wouldn't be better than any of them.  I'm content to stick to the plan, but I can't say I wouldn't be ecstatic if he came to Philly.

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10 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm okay with the first part.   I don't trade them just to trade them, but I think the return could be valuable.

 

I'm not sure about Tavares, to be honest.  He'd be coming from very similar to what we currently have here (Lousy goaltending, meh wingers, shaky defense, in-over-his-head coach).    I don't think he's necessarily moved heaven and earth there and I don't know that he's actually made his linemates better.  Of note, he's not playing right now.   I'm not really heavily arguing against it or anything, but I'm not sure he wouldn't end up being another huge contract we wouldn't end up regretting.

 

Karlsson is Karlsson and hard to argue against, but I'm not sure there either.   We have people coming, but it would be insane to think he wouldn't be better than any of them.  I'm content to stick to the plan, but I can't say I wouldn't be ecstatic if he came to Philly.

 

Yeah, I agree with your thinking too. I was just throwing that out there more tongue in cheek than anything else. Tavares would definitely help and be the #1C, but that pushes Coots and Patrick down the lineup for the forseeable future. 

 

Same with Karlsson. We'd end up with two more guys on $9-10M long term contracts. 

 

There's no doubt they are game changers, but I just can't see Hextall making those two moves. 

 

It's just a bit demoralizing to see how far behind we are when compared to the Pens, and we have no one in the Crosby/Malkin category.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, brelic said:

I just can't see Hextall making those two moves. 

 

Yeah, this is ultimately the case, which renders any Tavares/Karlsson discussion just fantasy talk among fans (which is fine; that's what a discussion board is for!).

 

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

It's just a bit demoralizing to see how far behind we are when compared to the Pens, and we have no one in the Crosby/Malkin category.

 

Yeah.  "Demoralizing" is arguably strong, but it certainly feels that way while sitting watching.   I'm trying to stick with "eye opening" and simply measuring stick.   In the "this is where we are against the best."    And until someone beats them, they're the best.

 

We don't have anyone currently in the Crosby/Malkin category.   I'm not going to attempt to argue that we're going to.   Crosby, in particular, really is a once in a lifetime guy.   If the Pens win this year--and especially if he continues to play like he has in this series--you have to really consider Crosby's name in the same breath as Gretsky, Lemieux, et al.     And if Crosby weren't on the team, then Malkin is 1C and he's still in a category above Tavares or just about anyone not named McDavid.  Malkin's only real  problem is health.

 

Patrick has looked very good down the stretch and better than any other Flyer in the playoffs.   And it's his first rodeo.   Health is obviously an issue for him, as well, but if he overcomes that I think we really will see some special things there.    I don't pretend it will ever be "Crosby" special.   Maybe not even Malkin.   But I think elite.   I'm hopeful for Frost, but at this point that's still silly given he's still in juniors and who really knows?     I do think we have an incredible dman in Provorov.   Keep building around those two and get a damn goalie (hopefully our kids that are 2 years--or more--away are that, but we have to get a better bridge) and maybe you have something.   At least better than 17-1 against in 3 games (God, that's ugly).

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55 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I don't disagree, actually.

 

On the other hand, it gave the opportunity to see Patrick at 1C in the playoffs.   He may actually have had the best game among the Flyers.   I realize that's the equivalent of saying he was the least burned of the explosion victims, but....     He actually did acquit himself well.

 

But say you put G at center.  That does make you stronger down lineup at the center position.    But now you have bottom six wingers moving up to accommodate.   And you'd probably still end up with TK on the wrong side as a result.  Po-tay-toe patatta.   

 

I could argue this one either way and would if I didn't think it was entirely moot.    Giroux at center or wing or congress, you'd still have Manning inexplicably out there killing penalties.  You'd still have Gudas out there doing nothing in particular.    You'd still have Laughton sucking up the world (he was TERRIBLE, and he's been bad), etc.   And, the clincher, you'd still have feces-du-jour in net.    It wouldn't have changed anything other than where Giroux would have been on the ice when the simple flip shot was going into our net.

 

 

I would say Patrick has been the best player in O&B this series.

 

The simple fact that most forget is this Team is not built to compete right now.  They just aren't...   anyone who thought they had a shot at beating the Pens in this series was slugging the orange Kool Aid.   

 

Am I pissed?   No...  I never thought they would get into the playoffs to begin with.   I might be a little disappointed that they are getting their asses handed to them in this series but just look at the talent and match ups.  Easily, the Pens are the better team from the Coach down to the equipment manager they are a superior team.  

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The trade off of not making the playoffs is drafting higher, which statistically makes you better sooner. The SOP of this team drives me nuts, and this most recent version is all the proof you need. Make the playoffs draft Scott Laughton, Sam Morin. Miss the playoffs, draft Ivan Provorov and Nolan Patrick.

If you didnt already know before this week that goaltending, defence, and forward were all very weak, then yes, you are an idiot. But everybody gets a ribbon. In some cases, 8.2 million ribbons.

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Just now, murraycraven said:

 

 

I would say Patrick has been the best player in O&B this series.

 

The simple fact that most forget is this Team is not built to compete right now.  They just aren't...   anyone who thought they had a shot at beating the Pens in this series was slugging the orange Kool Aid.   

 

Am I pissed?   No...  I never thought they would get into the playoffs to begin with.   I might be a little disappointed that they are getting their asses handed to them in this series but just look at the talent and match ups.  Easily, the Pens are the better team from the Coach down to the equipment manager they are a superior team.  

 

Yeah, you and I view this very similarly.   You've been around on various boards to know I'm really not a flowers & butterfly type of fan.   I mean, I've called for firing coaches and "burn it down" in the 2nd game of a season.   This just doesn't feel like that to me.   I really do see a build.   And I agree, it's not built to compete right now.   I'm out of Kool Aid, but I'm also willing to be patient with this.

 

I would have lost a bet about their making the playoffs.   Not to take anything away from anyone, but in context of what I posted above, a large reason they did make it was the bunch of teams that fell back to them.   Tampa missed the playoffs last year largely due to injury and some poor goaltending, but I think anyone would have predicted their return this year.  Outside of that and New Jersey (also helped by the fall of 4-5 teams) no one else suddenly magically appeared.   So, we had a window open and did just well enough to get in on the last weekend.   

 

We are NOT in the same category as the 2x defending champ.   We're simply not.   We're barely half-baked at this point.   But I'll take the playoff round.  I would have been okay without it, too.   But it's nice to have the Flyers relevant to complain about on 4/19 rather than cheering for the playoffs to be over to get on with the business of the draft lottery.

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7 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

If you didnt already know before this week that goaltending, defence, and forward were all very weak, then yes, you are an idiot.

 

Who didn't know this?  I think that knowledge is what makes a lot of us sanguine about it.   I think some of us realize this is still a build and realize it's not SuperNintendo NHL '95 so it does require a build.

 

And we likely have St. Louis' non-playoff pick from that "oh my God it's horrible!" Schenn trade.   I'd have been okay if they missed the playoffs.  It would have met my expectations, actually.  But if they met my expectations they would have drafted 11-15 barring two miracle lotteries in a row.     I suppose 11-15 is better than 16-19, but how much better?

 

I just find the emotion behind "the sky is falling" astounding.

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