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caluso

Too Much Garbage

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For all of the talk about the youth movement and the infusion of talent the Flyers are experiencing, the Flyers roster is still littered with too much garbage. And, I hate to break it to you, but the future is not as rosy as Hextall will have you believe. After all, there are several "young" Eastern Conference teams on the rise that have much more talent than the Flyers do: Boston, Toronto, and Columbus... to name a few.

 

  • Matt Read: the fact that this bum was called up and found himself on the PK unit speaks volumes about the dearth of talent on the front end that this organization has.
  • Michael Raffl: Completely asinine move by Hextall to re-sign this guy for 2 million per year. He is wildly inconsistent and doesn't come close to justifying his cap hit
  • Brandon Manning: Tries hard but...
  • Simmonds: what happened to this guy?
  • Scott Laughton: I cannot believe that there is not a better option in the AHL. I simply cannot believe that. And, if that is true, the team is screwed. Laughton sucks!
  • Brian Elliott: Nothing more than a tier 2 goalie. Every shot on goal is an adventure. Every one of them.
  • Filpula: Might go down as one of the worst moves Hextall has made. The guy was washed up before he got here. Again, I cannot believe that there is not a better option in the AHL. I simply cannot believe that. And, if that is true, the team is screwed.
  • Lehtera: see Manning 
  • Sanheim: does anyone else think that Hartnell had better balance than this guy; I have never seen a D-man not be able to pivot and turn without falling down as much as Sanheim. And, he has a really, really low hockey IQ.

 

Looking at that list, it is obvious that the Flyers' needs are vast: a goalie, 6 forwards and several D-men.

I am not a believer that the future is bright. Personally, I think they will remain mediocre for many more years.

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8 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Wrong. 

 

I can tolerate the rest of your post but this is just wrong.

 

 

 Well that, and the part about Toronto having better young talent.

 

 Is Auston Matthews a better young centre than anything Philly has? Sure.

 

 The reason Toronto is getting smoked though is because their two "elite" wingers (Marner/Nylander) want no part of playoff hockey. And they aren't even close to having the up and coming defence Philly has. Not to mention most of Hextalls draft picks haven't made the Flyers yet. 

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Well that, and the part about Toronto having better young talent.

 

 Is Auston Matthews a better young centre than anything Philly has? Sure.

 

 The reason Toronto is getting smoked though is because their two "elite" wingers (Marner/Nylander) want no part of playoff hockey. And they aren't even close to having the up and coming defence Philly has. Not to mention most of Hextalls draft picks haven't made the Flyers yet. 

 

I totally missed that ridiculous comment! about Toronto. Leafs also don't have a Carter Hart.

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1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

 

I totally missed that ridiculous comment! about Toronto. Leafs also don't have a Carter Hart.

 

Or Sandstrom/Lyon/Stolarz/Ustimenko. 

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1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Wrong. 

 

I can tolerate the rest of your post but this is just wrong.

Wrong? No, it's not, wrong. It is not an opinion, it is a fact: Sanheim loses his balance and falls down - without any contact - every game. Either you don't watch many games or you are too biased to see it, but it is not wrong. 

 

As for the so-called plethora of goalies that we have, who knows who will amount to anything; though, I think we all can admit that Lyon is not the long-term answer and the team's management doesn't believe that Stolarz is, so team's future is tied to Sandstrom and Hart, both of whom are excellent prospects. Having said that, this organization has shown no ability to develop a goaltender. None. Zero. Other than Bob. oh, wait........scratch that.

 

And, I am not at all surprised that the Flyer's are getting their asses kicked. I honestly thought that they would lose in 4 or 5 games. Let's be honest, Pittsburgh has more talent, a better coach and a better goalie. 

 

Lastly, if you don't see that Toronto has much more young talent than the Flyers do, I kindly ask for you to hook me up with your weed connection and ask that you take off your orange-and-black covered glasses. Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Hyman form a much better core than who the Flyers have - MUCH BETTER! And to say that Toronto's forwards aren't playoff ready is foolhardy. Toronto isn't ready to compete for a Cup yet because their D sucks. And while we have Provorov - who is a beast, monster - the rest of our D aint much better than theirs.

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1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Wrong. 

 

I can tolerate the rest of your post but this is just wrong.

 

Image result for zoolander can't turn left gif

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Posted (edited)

@caluso

gosh, the series is 2-1, the game the Flyers won was 5-1... I can't really argue with the guys you think are duds, they are.

I don't know how I would have handled the goalie situation, it has been consistently addressed via the draft, there isn't really anyone one a team would want available via free agency. Mason talked his way out of town, Neuwirth has talent but is brittle.  There's been a lot of bad luck involved with the position regardless of what we think of the players chosen.

 

I like Sanheim though, I think he's going to be a good player, I don't think he's stupid either. I do think he's got >60 NHL games under his belt so he will make glaring mistakes.  I'll take him 100x over Manning who is game but doesn't have the ability to play 2nd pairing minutes.

I think Nolan Patrick is actually getting better as this series goes on and that makes me feel pretty good.

the hyperbole in your post worst ever this, he sucks that, is too much.  Pittsburgh is a better team, which is hard to type, but true. They are the defending champs and are playing really well.  Our guys just aren't ready to take it to their defense the way a deeper team will be able to...

My expectations for his season have been surpassed so while watching 2 goals against in 5 seconds is disheartening its also hockey I didn't think I'd get to watch this year.  

As for those other teams,  ours is younger, and our team will be in the mix with that group. , I think it will be good for the league to have 6 or 10 really good teams, competing for the cup, I think the Flyers will be in that group. It could be worse, we could root for the Islanders.

 

I will take where this team is today vs where it was 3 years ago every time.  

 

 

Edited by mojo1917
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20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I will take where this team is today vs where it was 3 years ago every time.

 

What we *don't* have right now is the next generation player to take over from G. TK showed flashes of it in the 2nd half. Patrick could also be that guy, and showed lots of flashes in the 2nd half as well. 

 

But compare that to Pastrnak, Boeser, Barzal, Hischier, etc. Pastrnak's first two seasons were just ok, and the last two he's exploded and still just 21. 

 

TK has shown a similar pace over 40 games. Patrick, not quite yet, but he's still just 19 years old. 

 

We need someone to emerge as the next leader and offensive threat over the next few seasons. I think G had a career year that won't be duplicated. 

 

Oh, and we need a goalie :)

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1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

@brelic

Morgan Frost.

 

 

I hope so. He's even more of an unknown quantity than TK and Patrick. 

 

He has all the tools... Add Allison and Ratcliffe, who should both bring some toughness to the team, and things are looking good. 

 

NAK should be on the team next year, maybe good for 20-25 points in a 3rd line role?

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2 hours ago, caluso said:

Wrong? No, it's not, wrong. It is not an opinion, it is a fact: Sanheim loses his balance and falls down - without any contact - every game. Either you don't watch many games or you are too biased to see it, but it is not wrong.

 

I've probably played more hockey than you have watched, but ok. Put the video clips together and we can see how bad a skater Travis Sanheim is, ok?

 

2 hours ago, caluso said:

As for the so-called plethora of goalies that we have, who knows who will amount to anything; though, I think we all can admit that Lyon is not the long-term answer and the team's management doesn't believe that Stolarz is, so team's future is tied to Sandstrom and Hart, both of whom are excellent prospects. Having said that, this organization has shown no ability to develop a goaltender. None. Zero. Other than Bob. oh, wait........scratch that.

 

I mentioned one (1!) goalie prospect: Carter Hart. It is a fact (since you like that word) that the Leafs do not have a goalie prospect in the pipe with Hart's pedigree or promise. 

 

2 hours ago, caluso said:

And, I am not at all surprised that the Flyer's are getting their asses kicked. I honestly thought that they would lose in 4 or 5 games. Let's be honest, Pittsburgh has more talent, a better coach and a better goalie. 

 

I don't disagree with any of this. I'm not surprised either.

 

2 hours ago, caluso said:

Lastly, if you don't see that Toronto has much more young talent than the Flyers do, I kindly ask for you to hook me up with your weed connection and ask that you take off your orange-and-black covered glasses....Kadri, Hyman 

 

That's a bit over the top.  I guess I could have been more precise, that when I'm discussing "young" players I'm really meaning "prospects." Kadri is 27. Hyman is 25, and while I like him, he's also not really the type of player we are talking about. He's a bottom six guy, but Babs likes his work ethic and so he plays top 6. 

 

Besides, I don't have orange and black glasses, I have these really cool blue ones that draw people's attention away from my large, bent nose. 

 

Anyway, GFY

 

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1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

What we *don't* have right now is the next generation player to take over from G. TK showed flashes of it in the 2nd half. Patrick could also be that guy, and showed lots of flashes in the 2nd half as well. 

 

But compare that to Pastrnak, Boeser, Barzal, Hischier, etc. Pastrnak's first two seasons were just ok, and the last two he's exploded and still just 21. 

 

TK has shown a similar pace over 40 games. Patrick, not quite yet, but he's still just 19 years old. 

 

We need someone to emerge as the next leader and offensive threat over the next few seasons. I think G had a career year that won't be duplicated. 

 

Oh, and we need a goalie :)

 

I couldn't agree more. The Pens are the single clearest example of this in today's NHL, the Hawks in recent years makes a second. It's very hard to win without at least one, if not two, top level players on your roster. G has shown flashes of that level of play, but even he can hardly be considered consistent. This season is more likely a statistical anomaly than an indication of years to come.

 

Is it the only formula? No. The alternative is having a very deep roster both at forward and on D. Here we have the Bruins, Kings, and a number of teams who have made it to the conference finals in the last decade. This year's Preds is probably the best example of this type of team right now.

 

We don't have either of those things. I'm not sure why we should expect to contend without either of those things. Can Patrick get to that level? Frost? I hope so.

 

That second option -- winning with depth -- is clearly what Hex is trying to do. This is evident in his building through the draft approach, his desire to peel away bad contracts over time and introduce young talent over several years, rather than throwing them in the sea the moment they show some promise (hello Edmonton).

 

The alternative? Well we can take the Pens approach and just suck a bag of *ahem* for whatever number of years it takes to get a pair of generational talents. When that would be is anyone's guess of course, and it would make for some pretty garbage hockey in the interim. Personally, I'll stick with what Hex is trying to do and just hope he finds a way to pull it off.

 

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2 hours ago, caluso said:

Wrong? No, it's not, wrong. It is not an opinion, it is a fact: Sanheim loses his balance and falls down - without any contact - every game. Either you don't watch many games or you are too biased to see it, but it is not wrong. 

 

 

No, it is wrong....

 

 

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4 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

No, it is wrong....

 

 

Classic

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14 minutes ago, elmatus said:

That second option -- winning with depth -- is clearly what Hex is trying to do.

Being from Columbus, I spend some time watching the Blue Jackets.  I believe this is what they're trying to do too.  Thy don't have 1 or 2 elite, flashy, high-skill players who are going to score 1000 goals during the seaon or rack up 250 points.  No Ovechkins, Crosbys, McDavids, etc.  They are deep and they just keep coming after you.  Over and over again.  No letup and they will wear you down and out.  There aren't many high or lows, it's just consistent relentless hockey.  They'll get a goal here, then one there, and pretty soon before you realize it, game over.  Oh, and they've got a great goaltender in Bob which helps.

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2 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

Being from Columbus, I spend some time watching the Blue Jackets.  I believe this is what they're trying to do too.  Thy don't have 1 or 2 elite, flashy, high-skill players who are going to score 1000 goals during the seaon or rack up 250 points.  No Ovechkins, Crosbys, McDavids, etc.  They are deep and they just keep coming after you.  Over and over again.  No letup and they will wear you down and out.  There aren't many high or lows, it's just consistent relentless hockey.  They'll get a goal here, then one there, and pretty soon before you realize it, game over.  Oh, and they've got a great goaltender in Bob which helps.

 

And elite talents are no guarantee either. Washington (AO, NB), Dallas (TS, JB), TB (SS, NK, VH), Nashville (PK, RJ, RE, RJ, PR), Edmonton (CM), NY Islanders (JT),  and the list goes on. 

 

It's how you surround those guys, how they're coached, who the coach is, luck, will, determination, mental toughness, luck, healthy lineups, luck, and maybe a bit of luck. There are some peer-reviewed articles I've read that characterize hockey as primarily a game of randomness, and teams try as best they can to control that randomness.

 

What the past 8 years have shown us is that an elite player(s) is the buy-in to be a Cup contender, but only 4 teams have won Cups over that time. And until those other ones do, they're no better than the Flyers in the grand scheme of things except entertainment value.

 

Washington is probably the best example of having a generational talent and a few pretty excellent complementary pieces, including a top level goaltender, but diddley squat to show for it. Doesn't look like this year will be any different.  Over the past 11 years, they have made the playoffs 10 times, and have NEVER advanced past the 2nd round, split about 30/70 losing in the 1st round or 2nd round.

 

I think if that was Philly, we'd be way more frustrated and with better reason than what we're seeing with our team over the past 3-4 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, brelic said:

I think if that was Philly, we'd be way more frustrated and with better reason than what we're seeing with our team over the past 3-4 years.

Exactly.  Second paragraph in your post is especially interesting and insightful.  Agree with everything you wrote.  But this quote, in particular.  I'm frustrated watching this Flyers team, or teams over the last 3-5 seasons, trying to compete and win a cup.  But not near as frustrated as I'd be if we had that elite level talent and with it the much higher expectations.  In all honestly, I have (had) low expectations for these Flyers given the talent on the team and the botching of it vis-a-vis ridiculous terms in a handful of contracts, cap constraints, and some of the draft picks.  Throw in injuries and there really hasn't been much to be overly optimistic about.  We're turning an aircraft carrier.  It's slow going, but it is turning.

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16 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

Exactly.  Second paragraph in your post is especially interesting and insightful. 

 

If you want to know more, here are few interesting reads...

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

In the link above, the interviewee talks about hockey having the highest rate of randomness / luck of the major sports, and basketball having the highest incidence of skill in terms of affecting the outcome.

 

Here's another one 

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Quote

 

Law #3:  Goals are random events

 

It may seem that focusing on goals violates Law #1.  If a team wins a lot of games in spite of a small average goal differential, we seem to be getting mixed signals.  But this is where Laws #3 comes in.

 

The game of hockey is played by humans at high speed in tight quarters on a slippery, but imperfect, surface with a disk made of rubber.  If this does not sound like a recipe for chaotic events, watch a hockey game.

 

There is a great deal of statistical proof that goals occur randomly.  This does not mean that skill, strategy and execution give way to luck.  It means that outcomes are uncertain, influenced by a myriad of factors including skill, strategy and execution.

 

In fact, that is why the games are played.  If variations in individual performance and conditions (‘randomness’) did not exist, the game would have no interest.

 

Most people struggle to accept this.  Human brains are hard wired to find patterns.  We like good stories and want to believe in cause and effect.  Yet there are too many chaotic factors in play.  Randomness is everywhere in the game of hockey.

 

 

 

And finally, if you have a few hours to kill

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Quote

 

In this manuscript, we develop Bayesian state-space models using betting market data that can be uniformly applied across sporting organizations to better understand the role of randomness in game outcomes.


These models can be used to extract estimates of team strength, the between-season, within-season, and game-to-game variability of team strengths, as well each team’s home advantage.

 

We implement our approach across a decade of play in each of the National Football League (NFL), National Hockey League (NHL), National Basketball Association (NBA), and Major League Baseball (MLB), finding that the NBA demonstrates both the largest dispersion in talent and the largest home advantage, while the NHL and MLB stand out for their relative randomness in game outcomes.

 

We conclude by proposing new metrics for judging competitiveness across sports leagues, both within the regular season and using traditional postseason tournament formats. 

 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

 

Agree with everything you wrote.  But this quote, in particular.  I'm frustrated watching this Flyers team, or teams over the last 3-5 seasons, trying to compete and win a cup.  But not near as frustrated as I'd be if we had that elite level talent and with it the much higher expectations.  In all honestly, I have (had) low expectations for these Flyers given the talent on the team and the botching of it vis-a-vis ridiculous terms in a handful of contracts, cap constraints, and some of the draft picks.  Throw in injuries and there really hasn't been much to be overly optimistic about.  We're turning an aircraft carrier.  It's slow going, but it is turning.

 

I'm optimistic for the next 3-5 years. I think Hextall is building the team the right way. There's no guarantee that he will succeed, but at least he's laying down a sustainable foundation. I'd love to see the Flyers win a Cup with Hexy at the helm. He is one of my favourite Flyers ever!

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

I go back and forth.  Thinking it may have been better for them not to have made the playoffs this year.  Fragile psyches, frustrations, and confidence that could be easily damaged.  On the other hand, playing D against the likes of Crosby and Malkin, watching the young guys on this team score goals against tenders like Murray in an amped-up playoff setting is giving them awesome experience.  And that's totally worth making it to the post season.  If they don't get down on themselves, if they take theses losses and disappointments constructively, this team will be hell on wheels in a couple of years.

Patrick is answering, raising his level of play. That's a great sign.  I really like that kid.

Koneckny is answering so is Provorov.  I have thought that Sanheim has raised his level of play also.  the OP disagrees, but I think the competition got tougher the pace got quicker and 6 is playing the best I've seen from him since his call-up 

Getting this experience, I think, will be good for this group of young players. 

I think Hextall has drafted prospects with high character in addition to their skill.

I don't think that can be overlooked either.

Edited by mojo1917
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, caluso said:

Wrong? No, it's not, wrong. It is not an opinion, it is a fact: Sanheim loses his balance and falls down - without any contact - every game. Either you don't watch many games or you are too biased to see it, but it is not wrong.

 

 

 It IS wrong when you say Hartnell has better balance. That's a joke .Skating is one of Sanheims assets. It's also wrong when you say he has "really, really low IQ.

 

Quote

As for the so-called plethora of goalies that we have, who knows who will amount to anything; though, I think we all can admit that Lyon is not the long-term answer and the team's management doesn't believe that Stolarz is, so team's future is tied to Sandstrom and Hart, both of whom are excellent prospects. Having said that, this organization has shown no ability to develop a goaltender. None. Zero. Other than Bob. oh, wait........scratch that.

 

 I won't argue with what you said, but Philly has, by far, better young goalies than the Leafs. 

 

Quote

 

And, I am not at all surprised that the Flyer's are getting their asses kicked. I honestly thought that they would lose in 4 or 5 games. Let's be honest, Pittsburgh has more talent, a better coach and a better goalie. 

 

 Well they are the back to back defending cup champions. The Flyers, by most of our opinions, were a borderline playoff team. They look like one. 

 

Quote

 

Lastly, if you don't see that Toronto has much more young talent than the Flyers do, I kindly ask for you to hook me up with your weed connection and ask that you take off your orange-and-black covered glasses. Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Hyman form a much better core than who the Flyers have - MUCH BETTER! And to say that Toronto's forwards aren't playoff ready is foolhardy. Toronto isn't ready to compete for a Cup yet because their D sucks. And while we have Provorov - who is a beast, monster - the rest of our D aint much better than theirs.

 

 I already gave you Matthews...no argument there.

 

 Marner is very flashy. So is Nylander. I'll take Provorov and Gostibehere over them all day every day and twice on Sunday. Defencemen are harder to get than wingers. Marner had 69 points this year. Ghost had 65, as a defenceman. Nylander had 61 points, playing zero defence. Provorov, our best defensive defenceman had 41 including a league leading 17 goals. Kadri is 27. He had 55 points. Voracek is 28  He had 85. Konecny is 20. He had 47. Hyman is 25 and a 40 point player. Konecny has 1 more career point than him at 20. 

 

 I didn't even mention Patrick. Or Sanheim. Or Morgan Frost. Or Couturier who is the same age as Hyman and a waaaay better player.

 

 

Edited by flyercanuck

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