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Bring Tavares to Philly


elmatus

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I know this has been mentioned in another thread, but I do believe it deserves more attention.

 

I fully expect people will have mixed feelings at this kind of move. From my standpoint, if Hexy has the opportunity to bring in a 27 year old gamebreaker like Tavares, I think he needs to give it some serious consideration.

 

Acquiring a guy like Tavares is not the same as getting an Evander Kane or a John Carlson or whatever other names have been floating around here. In my view, Tavares has a level of talent above anyone on our current roster -- yes, including Giroux. That kind of player generally cannot be signed while still in their prime. These are players teams will purposely tank to acquire. To sign a guy like that makes us tremendously better immediately, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

 

Yeah, he'd be expensive, but guess how many up and coming teams are about to have 20-25million in cap space next season? I'll give you a hint: It's a very short list.

 

Even if we need to tie up 10 million for seven years, I believe he would still be 100% worth it. With the right supporting cast -- something he has never had in NY -- this is a guy who can challenge 100 pts a year into his 30s. What's better? Having Tavares means a guy like Giroux cannot be double and triple teamed every game. Somewhere, someone's going to deliver the pain.

 

Consider a comparison to the *puke* Pens. Crosby is great, but a team that only has to worry about Crosby can probably shut him down and win. One of the main problems with Pittsburgh is the line up doesn't end with Crosby. That's why they have three cups in the last decade. That's why they're a top contender again this season as well.

 

Can Patrick become that kind of player? Maybe... but I like sure bets myself. We know Tavares has that ability. Worst case scenario, we're set with a rather impressive trio of Tavares, Couturier, and Patrick for the next whatever years. That is astonishing to say the least, and it would go a long way towards giving us the kind of depth required to elevate our game into contender territory in a hurry.

 

Is he enough? Well, he's not a goalie. So no, just adding him is unlikely to be enough right away. But it would be one hell of a step forward.

 

Bottom line, this kind of opportunity is virtually unheard of. Would the Flyers be a frontrunner to sign him at all? Who knows? Probably not. There's always a solid chance he just resigns in NY in the end. But, if I'm John Tavares, and I want to play for a team with a bright potential future... I could do a lot worse than the Flyers...

 

@brelic, #GetHexyOnThePhone

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45 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I know this has been mentioned in another thread, but I do believe it deserves more attention.

 

I fully expect people will have mixed feelings at this kind of move. From my standpoint, if Hexy has the opportunity to bring in a 27 year old gamebreaker like Tavares, I think he needs to give it some serious consideration.

 

Acquiring a guy like Tavares is not the same as getting an Evander Kane or a John Carlson or whatever other names have been floating around here. In my view, Tavares has a level of talent above anyone on our current roster -- yes, including Giroux. That kind of player generally cannot be signed while still in their prime. These are players teams will purposely tank to acquire. To sign a guy like that makes us tremendously better immediately, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

 

Yeah, he'd be expensive, but guess how many up and coming teams are about to have 20-25million in cap space next season? I'll give you a hint: It's a very short list.

 

Even if we need to tie up 10 million for seven years, I believe he would still be 100% worth it. With the right supporting cast -- something he has never had in NY -- this is a guy who can challenge 100 pts a year into his 30s. What's better? Having Tavares means a guy like Giroux cannot be double and triple teamed every game. Somewhere, someone's going to deliver the pain.

 

Consider a comparison to the *puke* Pens. Crosby is great, but a team that only has to worry about Crosby can probably shut him down and win. One of the main problems with Pittsburgh is the line up doesn't end with Crosby. That's why they have three cups in the last decade. That's why they're a top contender again this season as well.

 

Can Patrick become that kind of player? Maybe... but I like sure bets myself. We know Tavares has that ability. Worst case scenario, we're set with a rather impressive trio of Tavares, Couturier, and Patrick for the next whatever years. That is astonishing to say the least, and it would go a long way towards giving us the kind of depth required to elevate our game into contender territory in a hurry.

 

Is he enough? Well, he's not a goalie. So no, just adding him is unlikely to be enough right away. But it would be one hell of a step forward.

 

Bottom line, this kind of opportunity is virtually unheard of. Would the Flyers be a frontrunner to sign him at all? Who knows? Probably not. There's always a solid chance he just resigns in NY in the end. But, if I'm John Tavares, and I want to play for a team with a bright potential future... I could do a lot worse than the Flyers...

 

@brelic, #GetHexyOnThePhone

 

 

I keep mulling this over and I would love Tavares oi  the O&B.    As you say, it is really hard to have a chance to sign an elite player in their prime.   If I am Hextall I am on the phone trying to see what it would take to get him in Philly.   He is a special player that would immediately speed up the "plan."   The issue is that we would have nearly 28M wrapped up in 3 players.   

 

The other issue is that I just don't see Hextall deviating from the plan.  Imagine a line with TK-JT-CG - that would be exciting as hell and it would definitely help G in the long run.   

 

Right now I think it is fantasy but I would take a shot.   

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7 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

The issue is that we would have nearly 28M wrapped up in 3 players. 

 

That's a fair point. It's not so unlike other teams who have found considerable success in recent years mind you. Also, if it turns out that's too much money for three players, trade the weakest link. Trade Voracek and get a decent haul for him, especially if he's been playing for 1-2 years with Giroux and Tavares on the line. No doubt his numbers would be gaudy over that span.

 

Pump him up and try to make the money work. If it doesn't, trade him, and Tavares is still a clear upgrade.

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I was working up a similar topic.

 

Seems crazy, but could work.

 

Tavares

Patrick

Couturier

 

Down the middle sounds strong.

 

I said in the Tavares thread - and still believe - that a team throwing $10M at him for 7-8 would regret it by Y3-4.

 

And I think it would be 8 years because the Isles will look to get SOMETHING for him and Tavares likely wants the eighth year of a "re-signing" team.

 

But, damn it does sound strong.

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I don't do this, personally, but I wouldn't be VLC angry if it happened.   I don't think it's necessary and probably makes paying people like Provorov and Patrick difficult down the road.     Other teams (Pitt, for example) somehow make it work, so cross each bridge when we come to it.

 

I've said elsewhere and I'll repeat here:   Goaltending is my priority.   Shore up the goaltending even with a decent bridge to Hart/Sanderstrom and minor changes up front (mostly improve depth) and you'll see a much better result without buying the shiny.

 

It's fun to talk about and certainly a valid discussion so it's not one of those "that's nonsense!"  things.   I just don't personally do it.

 

Plus, honestly, I'm not sold on Tavares the way everyone seems to be.   We talk about how he hasn't had wingers, but some have moved away from him and actually have been better.   Even pretending that's nonsense, my other problem is if we do this and don't fix goalie, he's coming to a very similar situation here as he suffered with in NYI:  A decent line or two, no depth, spotty defense and crap goaltending.

 

I realize Giroux, Voracek, Konecny, Coots and Patrick are probably better than what he's had on the Isles (no probably, they are).  And Provorov and Ghost are better.    But there's still goalie.  If you don't fix goalie, it won't matter.

 

I wouldn't be upset if it happened.  It could be exciting, actually.  I just think we'd be better served with a goalie, a top-six scoring winger, and some better depth players on the bottom six who can competently play the PK.

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17 minutes ago, radoran said:

Seems crazy, but could work.

 

Tavares

Patrick

Couturier

 

But, damn it does sound strong.

 

Because this sounds like fun.

 

Giroux -- Tavares -- Konecny

Lindblom  --  Patrick -- Voracek

Frost -- Couturier -- Simmonds

Ratcliffe -- Veccione/Rubstov -- Aube-Kubel

 

Obviously, this wouldn't be next year yet, but the minus Frost that could be the top 3 lines (or variation of).   

 

If you were to keep Coots with TK & G you keep a really strong line that does NOT have Tavares on it.  Pretending for the moment that Simmonds was due to injury and not decay, Tavares between someone and Simmonds could be an amazing line.

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1 hour ago, elmatus said:

Even if we need to tie up 10 million for seven years, I believe he would still be 100% worth it. With the right supporting cast -- something he has never had in NY -- this is a guy who can challenge 100 pts a year into his 30s. What's better? Having Tavares means a guy like Giroux cannot be double and triple teamed every game. Somewhere, someone's going to deliver the pain.

History tells us that he's more of a "guy who flirts with 80 points" than a 100 point challenger, plus Tavares wouldn't need to log extra minutes on a deeper team, so the better talent around him would likely be close to a wash. 

 

image.png

 

The Islanders had some decent teams, but small markets rarely get the credit or attention that they deserve.

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17 minutes ago, Clarke2Leach said:

History tells us that he's more of a "guy who flirts with 80 points" than a 100 point challenger, plus Tavares wouldn't need to log extra minutes on a deeper team, so the better talent around him would likely be close to a wash. 

 

image.png

 

The Islanders had some decent teams, but small markets rarely get the credit or attention that they deserve.

 

I agree with all of that.   This year was a little different for him because he started out strong, but typically his final numbers aren't as high as they'd otherwise be because he's been such a slow starter.   His first half numbers have usually been "meh" (at least by "star" status).   

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30 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Frost -- Couturier -- Simmonds

Only if Simmonds rebounds.  Saw flashes of his old self in game 6 of the series, but all regular season and for the early part of the first round he was playing like there was something very wrong.  I never did hear what might be ailing him.  Maybe he heals whatever that is during the off-season, but overall I was pretty disappointed in/concerned by the way he played all year.

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The other thing, as @radoran alludes to indirectly ("regret by Y3-4") is that he's right around the age where players peak statistically. 

 

Now, of course playing with Giroux and TK, we can probably expect a bump in production, but the odds are that he's not going to get better in Philly. He will likely begin a decline in Y3-4.

 

How much of a decline is the question. By that time, Patrick should be hitting his stride as a rising star, while we're paying $10-11M for a declining one. Giroux's deal expires in Y4, Voracek in Y6. 

 

Lots to think about. But in the end, when that kind of talent potentially becomes available, you'd be negligent to not at least consider it.

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21 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

Only if Simmonds rebounds.  Saw flashes of his old self in game 6 of the series, but all regular season and for the early part of the first round he was playing like there was something very wrong.  I never did hear what might be ailing him.  Maybe he heals whatever that is during the off-season, but overall I was pretty disappointed in/concerned by the way he played all year.

We're supposedly going to hear tomorrow. It's supposed to be significant.  He was hurt and missed time early in the year. He came back way too soon and was never right since.  I can only believe this negatively affected his play.  Believe/hope. 

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Just now, ruxpin said:

He was hurt and missed time early in the year

It almost seemed to me like it had something to do with a fight he had early in the season.  Can't pinpoint it now, but he got clocked pretty good and never seemed the same.  I thought maybe he had been concussed.  Some sort of head injury he just couldn't shake.  He wasn't the agitator he was prior and he never dropped the gloves after.  Or if he did, it was only once or twice.  He was definitely playing cautiously.  

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38 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

It almost seemed to me like it had something to do with a fight he had early in the season.

 

Yeah, that was my recollection as well.  I know he was out a couple of weeks following a fight against Tony DeAngelo.    For whatever reason, his quote after Sunday's game indicated something more in the body but now that I'm re-reading it, I'm not sure why I got that impression.

 

Something to do with the fight, but I also vaguely recall his getting dinged in other way almost right when he came back (early) from that.  Who knows, but he also seemed to indicate we'd hear after the post-season player exit interviews (Wednesday).

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5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Something to do with the fight, but I also vaguely recall his getting dinged in other way almost right when he came back (early) from that.

I had forgotten this until I read it, but I think you're right about that.

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1 minute ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

I had forgotten this until I read it, but I think you're right about that.

 

You know what's weird?  I'm googling now and all the injury reports I'm seeing are from February 20.   I swear something went on earlier in the year, didn't it?

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The other thing about Simmonds.  It was definitely an off-year but still managed 24-22-46 in an off year and mostly on the 3rd line.  If he had any other name, we'd probably be quite happy with 24 goals/46 points from a third line winger.

 

Where we missed him is the other stuff he ordinarily brings like physicality, toughness, etc.   I want to blame whatever is physically ailing him for that.

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8 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

injury reports I'm seeing are from February 20.

That's when he fought Deangelo or right before.  I just checked his fight card.  He had three fights - October, December and the February DeAngelo fight.  Just watched all three and he didn't seem to have taken any head shots.  The DeAngelo fight actually wasn't as bad as I had thought upon watching it again.  BUT, there were no fights after that and his play started to drop.  So maybe I'm mistaken that his play had something to do with the fight.  On the other hand, maybe that Feb 18 fight was significant.  Who knows.  Really interested to find out what happened to him.

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3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

The other thing about Simmonds.  It was definitely an off-year but still managed 24-22-46 in an off year and mostly on the 3rd line.  If he had any other name, we'd probably be quite happy with 24 goals/46 points from a third line winger.

 

Where we missed him is the other stuff he ordinarily brings like physicality, toughness, etc.   I want to blame whatever is physically ailing him for that.

No doubt at all.  He just sets expectations so high that when there's a drop off it's like the end of the world!!

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3 hours ago, radoran said:

Tavares

Patrick

Couturier

 

 

Could it??

 

I would think put putting the 30 goal scorer on the 3rd would piss him off.

 

How about..

 

Tavares

Coots

Patrick

???

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2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Giroux -- Tavares -- Konecny

Lindblom  --  Patrick -- Voracek

Frost -- Couturier -- Simmonds

Ratcliffe -- Veccione/Rubstov -- Aube-Kubel

 

 

I like this better...

 

Giroux -- Tavares -- Konecny

Lindblom  -- Couturier-- Voracek

Martel -- Patrick -- Aube-Kubel

Laughton --Vorobyev-- Raffl

 

Edit: I forgot to include Raffl he is now.

 

....for next year...just my 2 cents in this fantasy.....look like i'm not the only one needing a padded room.

 

I welcome company!:hehe:

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15 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I like this better...

 

Giroux -- Tavares -- Konecny

Lindblom  -- Couturier-- Voracek

Martel -- Patrick -- Aube-Kubel

Laughton --Vorobyev-- Raffl

 

Edit: I forgot to include Raffl he is now.

 

....for next year...just my 2 cents in this fantasy.....look like i'm not the only one needing a padded room.

 

I welcome company!:hehe:

LOL

 

In your fantasy version, what did we get for Simmonds?  (not specific name, unless you happened to think that far. Just defense? Goalie? Prospects/picks? Mix?) 

 

I have to tell you. I'm on my phone typing this and just before I hit "post" I realized my phone changed "prospects" to "prostitute." Not sure I'm glad I noticed, because that could have been fun. 

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9 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

LOL

 

In your fantasy version, what did we get for Simmonds?  (not specific name, unless you happened to think that far. Just defense? Goalie? Prospects/picks? Mix?) 

 

I have to tell you. I'm on my phone typing this and just before I hit "post" I realized my phone changed "prospects" to "prostitute." Not sure I'm glad I noticed, because that could have been fun. 

 

A 1st round and 4th round pick and capspace.

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11 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

LOL

 

In your fantasy version, what did we get for Simmonds?  (not specific name, unless you happened to think that far. Just defense? Goalie? Prospects/picks? Mix?) 

 

I have to tell you. I'm on my phone typing this and just before I hit "post" I realized my phone changed "prospects" to "prostitute." Not sure I'm glad I noticed, because that could have been fun. 

 

I guess the blue line looks like this...

 

Provy/Mcud

Ghost/Hagg

Morin/Sanheim

Gudas

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15 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I like this better...

 

Giroux -- Tavares -- Konecny

Lindblom  -- Couturier-- Voracek

Martel -- Patrick -- Aube-Kubel

Laughton --Vorobyev-- Raffl

 

 

As I have previously stated I would prefer Voracek be moved this off season. He’s not worth his contract and will fetch more than Simmonds. I really think this was an off year for Simmer due to injuries and I would hate losing his character on and off the ice. If he struggles again next year dump him for whatever you can get or just let him walk. I think Simmonds with Coots and Lindblom or up on line 1 as you have it could be exciting.

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