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Flyers 2018-19 Offseason moves


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2 minutes ago, vis said:

Relax.  It was a comment about the various directions in which they could go.  Not complaining about the substance of the thread.

 

Just making sure been a lot pissing and moaning around here lately and some very sensitive folks here (not saying it's you) just got some message from the mods here telling us to tone it down, we have been to negative and have been posting some nasty language here is all.

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2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Just making sure been a lot pissing and moaning around here lately and some very sensitive folks here (not saying it's you) just got some message from the mods here telling us to tone it down, we have been to negative and have been posting some nasty language here is all.

Gotcha.  Wow.  Didn't realize folks were minding the store that closely.  This thread is too negative?  What nasty language?

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16 minutes ago, King Knut said:

There's just too much to sort out for Hextall and the goalies.  Too many variables.  Too many options.  

 

Agreed.   Just your take:  how many of the options in goal are actually viable?   I'll give my take but am interested in yours.

 

Elliott.  That's a given for next year.   This question probably won't sort itself out until next year, but do they extend or get another rent-a-mule?   Or is there some thought that Hart is ready by September 2019?   I think another year for him, myself.

Lyon:   For me, he's just not a viable alternative on the NHL level, and I don't think he will be.   He could be a backup somewhere maybe, but not on a good team.

Stolarz:   He could top out at backup.  If he's healthy, I'm okay with him backing up Elliott and playing 25-30 games.   I wonder if that isn't still too much of a workload for Elliott

Neuvy:  Honest to God, he has a better chance of a career on a Sally Struthers or UNICEF commercial.  I don't know what they're options are with him in terms of getting out of him staying, but they have to explore that.

Hart:  See above

 

 

I agree, there are way too many variables, so Hex has his work cut out for him.  Stolarz, if healthy, my be the easiest but I'm scared of his health.   A UFA backup like Hutton might be the bridge to nowhere that we need.   That said, I bet my lunch money that Hextall doesn't go outside.  

 

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4 minutes ago, vis said:

Gotcha.  Wow.  Didn't realize folks were minding the store that closely.  This thread is too negative?  What nasty language?

 

I don't *think* it was this thread, but definitely wasn't you in any case.

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1 minute ago, vis said:

 

But the team is in a weird place.  They are not legitimate Cup contenders.

 

They're not far off.  Even if they'd just had decent goaltending, they might have survived the Penguins despite being significantly out coached throughout the series. 

 

The pieces they need are obvious now too, so that helps.

1 minute ago, vis said:

 

Package a roster player/prospect/picks and try to get a young, offensively gifted forward?  Who?

 

 

If I'm Hextall, I'm on the phone with Ottawa offering draft picks for Mark Stone.  I'd also take a look at Mike Hoffman (though he costs more).  But Stone's the guy I want on our wing.  He's 25, he's productive, but he's also one of the best two way YOUNG players in the league not named Sean Couturier.  

 

I'd think they could take a look at Bozak at 3C if the Tavares thing falls through.

I don't think they'll go near JVR with a 20ft pole.  He won't want to come back (let's face it... the little **** never wanted to be a Flyer) and even if Hextall could swallow that, I'm not sure there's a forward in this league less primed for Hakstol Hockey.  

 

Hextall actually has no choice but to take the risk on Morin.  He was ready last year.  He would have finished the year in Philly after Radko got suspended if he hadn't been hurt because his presence would have made Manning and Radko useless pretty quickly.  But all of that aside, his no longer waiver exempt.  He makes the 23 man roster and he doesn't leave it or he gets claimed and you don't want another team getting THAT guy for free.  Hak may be Hak again and put him in the press box because rookies something something yadda yadda, but the long and short is that Hextall will either trade Sam Morin this off season or he will be a Flyer in October.  

 

The goaltending thing is a mess. I said it in another post just now, but they somehow simultaneously have too many guys and not enough guys.  I'm saying this a LOT now so I won't stop, but I want them to keep Neuvy for the almost exclusive use of using up that 23rd roster spot and using him as a target dummy in practice.  Elliott commented that Hakstol practices seem to require more hard minutes from the starting goalies than games do, so screw that.  Make Neuvy chew up those minutes until he hurts himself.  

 

What they do from there is anyone's guess.  I think elliott would have been fine had he been healthy, but he's having another core muscle surgery and lord knows if we'll see a full strength elliott again in orange and black.  

 

Is Stolarz going to be able to play like he did two years ago?  I think he's a viable backup if so.  Lyon isn't.  I'm sorry.

There are a number of UFA options out there who could be had on short term deals, but few have experience starting 50+ games.

Then there's the trade option... Fleury?  Crawford?  These are guys you could maybe get for a pick or two (if Fleury waives again (doubful) the Hawks have something else in place also doubtful)).

 

Long story short, there's no right move, but I'm not sure you can screw up too badly either given the circumstances.  As long as Hart gets 25-40 games in Lehigh Valley, they season will have done it's job. 

 

For the success of the Flyers team however, I'd take a stab at this either Carter Hutton in ST. Louis, Aaron Dell in San Jose or Jonathan Bernier coming off a typically competent yet unamazing season as a backup in Colorado.  None are starters, but each has shown when thrust into the spotlight.

 

The dark horse option in net is to work a three way deal with a friendly team out west like The Kings or Vegas or someone.  Send them a pick plus, they send something the capitals want to Washington and the Capitals send us Holtby for two years.  A direct trade would never EVER work.

 

1 minute ago, vis said:

 

Or maybe just go all-in on Tavares.

 

This is the long and short. Everything else is moot if you can do this.  he's not even what the team needs, but if a guy like this is available, you have to take a stab at him.  If the Flyers had ZERO prospects on D or in Goal, I'd say, forget him, let someone else overpay him, we have more urgent needs... but the fact is the Flyers aren't in a bad situation long term in either position.  They need to be upgraded, but those upgrades are imminent.  Hextall can spend money to accelerate them with short term relief as discussed above, or he can make the team an instant contender while the upgrades work their way up.  

 

You gotta take a crack at it and the Flyers are in a unique position to do so without sacrificing ANYTHING.    It just makes too much sense not to try.

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10 minutes ago, vis said:

This thread is too negative?  What nasty language?

 

 

Not this one the ones a few weeks back when Philly was in the playoffs.

 

Yeah i thought we had freedom here to be as negative as we wanted or as positive as we want...obviously some can't just not look away or just ignore or even use the ignore feature i guess this world has all types of folks.

 

Oh well.

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13 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Lyon:   For me, he's just not a viable alternative on the NHL level, and I don't think he will be.   He could be a backup somewhere maybe, but not on a good team.

Stolarz:   He could top out at backup.  If he's healthy, I'm okay with him backing up Elliott and playing 25-30 games.   I wonder if that isn't still too much of a workload for Elliott

 

 

I think one of these two could be re upped to help support Hart next year in LV and the loser shipped off for whatever or like you said given the chance to backup Elliott next year which will either be i can't say.

 

Lyon is the older of the two and the better pedigree of them as well. Just can't say WTF Ron is thinking.

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25 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'll flip the coin, but I got to be honest:  I'm heavily altering the coin so that it has Gudas on both sides.

 

I'm not calling you out here, this is just another thought I had and I want to keep this threaded to a relevant post.

 

If the Flyers move Gudas (or MacDonald, or Hagg), who comes in to fill that spot on the roster?

 

Because you know that's the next guy for Hakstol to fall in love with and play 70 games next season for his "veteran presence" while Morin or Sanheim sits in the pressbox.

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2 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

I'm not calling you out here, this is just another thought I had and I want to keep this threaded to a relevant post.

 

If the Flyers move Gudas (or MacDonald), who comes in to fill that spot on the roster?

 

Because you know that's the next guy for Hakstol to fall in love with and play 70 games next season for his "veteran presence" while Morin or Sanheim sits in the pressbox.

 

Boy is the bolded true.    Do we need someone?  Or do we go with the young?

Provorov will be in his third season.   Ghost 4 (accurately, 3 1/2).    MacDonald would be the vet.   Then you have 2nd year Hagg (I know) and Sanheim & Morin.   I think it may be a lot to ask of Moriin given his missing last year, and then there's hedging your bets against his newest injury.   I think you probably have to bring someone in as the 7th and to guard against injury, but my fear is that you're right about Hakstol.  

 

 

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Just now, ruxpin said:

 

Boy is the bolded true.    Do we need someone?  Or do we go with the young?

 

 

 

You really need to carry a 7th, the same way you need to carry a 13th forward. If someone tweaks something in the pre-game, you need to be able to adjust and ice a complete roster.

 

It's why I was fine with Manning. He was perfect as a 7th defenseman. But when your coach plays him like a 3., or even a 2 at times.. That's a problem. 

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26 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I don't *think* it was this thread, but definitely wasn't you in any case.

Well, I did drop a few F-bombs and other colorful language in chat and on the board.  I think the board censored it.

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9 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

It's why I was fine with Manning. He was perfect as a 7th defenseman. But when your coach plays him like a 3., or even a 2 at times.. That's a problem. 

 

Agreed on both counts.  I definitely agree with the need for a 7th, too.  I don't think a kid for that role is ideal (like a Myers, just for example).  That does nothing for development.

 

Okay, I'm not going for excitement here.  Just a bottom pair plug in/7th kind of guy.   Would a Dennis Seidenberg, Josh Gorges, Jason Garrison or Mike Green type get it done?   All would require an ego-adjusting cut in pay and ice time.   What about an Ian Cole?   All of them run the risk you're concerned about with Hakstol.   The problem, I think, is that when you get down to the 20-somethings, you're going to have a hard time getting someone to sign to sit in the press box that much.   I don't have a great, "then who?" answer.

 

You're right about Manning being a good 7th.   Maybe move Gudas and see if he's game.  Again, the Hakstol thing, though.   I just think the Hakstol thing is a huge factor if you're thinking of going with Gudas for #7.   Unless you keep him and rotate 3 in 2 slots like we talked about.

 

 

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

What assets would you be spending?

 

A pen and a piece of paper to offer him a contract a bump up for what he is making is all.

 

He is a UFA.

 

Oh I didn't realize he was UFA. In that case, it sure makes things easier.

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Just now, ruxpin said:

 

Agreed on both counts.  I definitely agree with the need for a 7th, too.  I don't think a kid for that role is ideal (like a Myers, just for example).  That does nothing for development.

 

Okay, I'm not going for excitement here.  Just a bottom pair plug in/7th kind of guy.   Would a Dennis Seidenberg, Josh Gorges, Jason Garrison or Mike Green type get it done?   All would require an ego-adjusting cut in pay and ice time.   What about an Ian Cole?   All of them run the risk you're concerned about with Hakstol.   The problem, I think, is that when you get down to the 20-somethings, you're going to have a hard time getting someone to sign to sit in the press box that much.   I don't have a great, "then who?" answer.

 

You're right about Manning being a good 7th.   Maybe move Gudas and see if he's game.  Again, the Hakstol thing, though.   I just think the Hakstol thing is a huge factor if you're thinking of going with Gudas for #7.   Unless you keep him and rotate 3 in 2 slots like we talked about.

 

 

 

Honestly, depending on cost, I'd be game for any of those options as a 7. 

 

And you're right. I think you run into the Hakstol problem no matter what. Gudas is your 7? Well, he'll play every game. Trade Gudas, bring in Green? Morin is too young, Green gets the majority of the time. Trade Hagg to clear that spot and bring back a decent return, sign Garrison to be the 7th? Morin is still too young, Garrison gets the majority of the time.

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15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Agreed.   Just your take:  how many of the options in goal are actually viable?   I'll give my take but am interested in yours.

 

 

Options currently on the Flyers?  As a Starter, I think Hart and Sandstrom are probably both still decent options.  Sandstrom did okay last year, worse than hoped right, but he was hurt, so that's a tough one.

 

I am NOT comfortable with Elliott as a 55 game #1 goalie coming off the 2nd core muscle surgery... especially the way he looked in the playoffs.  He hunkered down and got it together for 2 games out of the entirety of his return, but you could see those games of added effort cost him in the long run.  

 

I like Stolarz as a potential backup.  I'm so ticked he lost all of last year.  I think if He'd been healthy, he'd have been the perfect fill in guy.  he's not amazing, but he makes the saves you'd hope in a way that settles the play down and helps your D regain control.  This is the key aspect the team's been missing for a long damn time.  It was what made Boucher so effective back in the day and what made Cechmanek so ineffective despite being such an amazing athlete and acrobat.  It's why they got to the ECFs with a goalie as boring as Esche and why they made it to the finals with the Boosh/Leighton tandem.  In the end, both of them were hurt and couldn't make the saves you'd expect anymore (I don't blame Leighton for being bad, I blame him for not telling the trainers and coaches he'd herniated a disk in the finals).  

 

The hope is that Hart is that breed of goalie who can make the expected saves and the amazing ones and get most of them done in a way that calms the game down for the D men.

 

I just don't think we'll have a clue what Sandstrom is until he's here playing games.  

 

Options not on the Flyers, like I said, short of the 3-way with the Capitals for Holtby, think Dell, Hutton and Bernier are good burner options to get us to the time frame in which Hart should be a viable starter.  

 

If Stolarz is healthy and "back" to where he was when he was playing with the Flyers in /17, I'm good with him as the backup.  The question is whether I trust one of those UFAs to be the "starter" with a maybe healthy Stolarz as the backup?  Nope. I don't.  

 

I know I harp on this idea of Neuvirth being a practice goalie only, and wasting a 23 man roster spot on him, but the more I think about it, they may have to burn Neuvirth someplace (3rd AHL goalie, ECHL, buyout) AND STILL sign one of the aforementioned UFAs just to make it through the season because right now, they have NO ONE I'd trust to start 40+ games and the free agents mentioned aren't really in the reliable 50+game range either.  You almost have to set yourself up for a situation in which you have three guys splitting time.

 

That Darkhorse option of using the Kings to 3-way leverage Holtby is looking better and better no matter how absurd it feels now. 

 

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Or is there some thought that Hart is ready by September 2019?   I think another year for him, myself.

 

 

I agree.  The scuttlebut is all about how Frost needs to fill out, but have you seen Hart?  Pretty scrawny.  I wouldn't put him in there against NHL grown men crashing his crease.  Our new toy will break before we ever get to really play with him.  I could see him getting the Mrazek emergency call up for a few games if they literally burn through ALL other 4 goalies again... but otherwise I don't want to see him even getting fill in minutes in the NHL until the second half of 20-19-2020... and I'm the guy usually pushing for young guys to be on the NHL roster.  

 

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Lyon:   For me, he's just not a viable alternative on the NHL level, and I don't think he will be.   He could be a backup somewhere maybe, but not on a good team.

 

Yeah, I tend to agree.  There were moments against some team in which he looked like he may have that Leightonesque, "i'm not very good, but I'll make the easy saves if you only let them have low % shots and I'll control the rebounds to the D-men" kind of look... but that was fleeting and far between.  

 

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Stolarz:   He could top out at backup.  If he's healthy, I'm okay with him backing up Elliott and playing 25-30 games.   I wonder if that isn't still too much of a workload for Elliott

 

 

Yeah, I like Stolarz as a backup a LOT.  I think he's the kind of backup who, with a good team in front of him, could while not being terribly flashy, could be a very steadying force to help the team keep winning.  I'd liken him to Boosh in '10 or Esche in '04... and imagine if neither had needed to be our starter?  They'd have been pretty impressive if they'd just been backups.  

 

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Neuvy:  Honest to God, he has a better chance of a career on a Sally Struthers or UNICEF commercial.  I don't know what they're options are with him in terms of getting out of him staying, but they have to explore that.

 

I'm great with Neuvy staying on the team as long as he only ever wears a practice jersey for the remainder of his contract.  I honestly think that's how he can best help the club.  

 

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I agree, there are way too many variables, so Hex has his work cut out for him.  Stolarz, if healthy, my be the easiest but I'm scared of his health.   

 

 

The bright news is that the Phantoms REALLY REALLY seem to be taking it very carefully and slowly with both him and Morin... which is admirable.  They could just toss them out there and hope for the best the way the Flyers did with Elliott and Neuvy.

 

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

A UFA backup like Hutton might be the bridge to nowhere that we need.   That said, I bet my lunch money that Hextall doesn't go outside.  

 

The thing about that Bridge to Nowhere that no one talks about which makes it a very apt metaphor in this instance is that the "nowhere" in question was always intended to BECOME somewhere.  They were building the bridge to make it easier to build all the other stuff they were planning to develop on the Island.  But they never built the bridge... and now the island is still just nowhere.  

 

The Flyers have the "somewhere" ready to go.  They just need the damn bridge to not collapse before they get across.

 

So in keeping with the metaphor, I wouldn't trade a pick unless you can get a Holtby or a Crawford for it.  But I'd take a flyer on signing any one of the Free agents I threw out... which is in no way an exhaustive list.  as long as no one's signed for more than two years, you always have options ahead.  If you don't sign one you could end up with Stolarz, Elliott, Neuvirth again and ALL OF THEM hurt... AGAIN. Before Hart should even be worried about being ready.  I don't think you can risk it.  

 

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26 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

If the Flyers move Gudas (or MacDonald, or Hagg), who comes in to fill that spot on the roster?

 

I wouldn't fill it.

 

Leave them some flexibility...

 

...utilize some call up time i say.

 

If you needed a vet i think Brennan could be that guy.

 

Or call up a kid (yeah i know another kid would be risky)...

 

Friedman or Willcox if would maybe get first chance if you wanted an older young guy. They will be 23 and 25 respectively next year.

 

Myers could even too by the way.

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8 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Honestly, depending on cost, I'd be game for any of those options as a 7. 

 

And you're right. I think you run into the Hakstol problem no matter what. Gudas is your 7? Well, he'll play every game. Trade Gudas, bring in Green? Morin is too young, Green gets the majority of the time. Trade Hagg to clear that spot and bring back a decent return, sign Garrison to be the 7th? Morin is still too young, Garrison gets the majority of the time.

 

Man, I wish you weren't right.    Sadly, you're dead on.

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1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

However unlikely, I don't see why not.  They never use the 23rd spot on the roster anyway.

 

They're in an odd situation wherein their three guys most likely to get NHL minutes are coming off surgeries and the other guy they have left just wasn't very good in his NHL time, but one of the best if not the best goalie to ever come out of the WHL is ready for AHL time next year.

 

They simultaneously have too many NHL goalies AND not enough decent or healthy NHL goalies while at the same time need to get their prospect some major minor league minutes.  

 

I'd say delegate Neuvirth, but you'd have to send him to the ECHL to make sure he doesn't take time away from Hart.

I'd say buy him out, but they don't need the money and I think this is actually a much more useful way to burn off the rest of his contract.  

 

Does anyone know when they have to decide about Sandstrom? Do they get camp to decide?  Any preseason games?  If they can determine that he looks passable as an NHL backup, I'd go ahead and dismiss Neuvy and figure something out with Stolie and Lyon as the third man in such a way to get Carter Hart the minutes he needs (but not too many as to break the kid).

 

Good question about Sandstrom... I know that he's not interested in the AHL this year but I wonder if he would leave Sweden for an NHL gig? He signed a contract with a new team, so the whole thing may be moot anyway. I don't know if breaking a contract requires compensation or anything like that. 

 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm actually still mad at Hextall about that.  I'll try to see his POV on a lot of things, but in that one he just screwed up.  And he's making the same mistake now over and over again with Hakstol.  I know he doesn't want to meddle in the head coach's responsibilities and he wants to maintain the order of command and blah blah blah and yes, I see the reasons and respect that.  But sometimes your head coach is just wrong and sometimes he's wrong in a way that costs you a goal, or a game or Steve Mason for the playoffs... and other times he's wrong in a way that makes you have to trade a draft pick for Petr Mrazek ahead of the deadine because he's literally broken your 2 NHL goalies for the THIRD YEAR IN A ROW.  

 

He could have learned the lesson when Berube risked Mason's knee by forcing him to play before the guy was ready.  But he fired the first good goalie coach in forever instead because Reese had the cajones to say, "This is stupid.  Chief's just desperate to make the playoffs to save his job"  

 

I'll forgive Hextall all the Dale Weises in the world, but it's this stuff that gets my blood angry.  Somone has to be able to sit Hak down and as of yet, Hextall ain't doing it and that is a problem.  

 

 

Yeah, that was a strange move from Hextall. 

 

I'm sure Public Hextall is different from Private Hextall. I can't imagine he hasn't sat down with Hak and explored some of these very issues and shared his point of view / concerns. 

 

The fact that the message doesn't seem to be getting through is frustrating, though. Seriously, Hak's goalie usage is worse than Lavi's who basically cost us Bob. I know Homer pulled the trigger, but Lavi was a short-tempered ass clown and created that circus. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Options currently on the Flyers?

 

Just quoting the first line so you  know which post I'm talking about:

 

Man was that a great post.

 

I'm actually okay with Neuvirth on the 23-man roster for practice purposes.   I don't know that anyone's done that specifically for that purpose, but the Islanders ran with three.   It didn't work for them because they tried to play all three, but this is so crazy it just might work.

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well if that was the case why didn't it inflate Jake Allen's numbers???

 

He posted a 906% ...sorry i can't get behind the idea that the team in front of a goalie boosted his stats a full 25% in front of one guy and not the other.

 

Hutton allowed only 2.09 gaa in front of the same team that Jake posted a 2.75 gaa.

 

Dude is certainly worth kicking the tires on i think....if for no other reason than to bring him to replace Neuvy. I would feel better with a Hutton/Elliott tandem than standing pat.

Just my 2 cents without trading away assets for another goalie option.

 

I like Varlamov but i can't see the Avs trading him.

 

I like Grubauer too but then again how much of the team in front of him is the reason he posted 923% 2.35 gaa????

 

But then again that same team he put up 837% 4.57 gaa in the 2 games he started before getting yanked for Holtby.

 

Fair enough. Allen did have an off year when you compare that to his previous three seasons. 

 

But, yeah, as a UFA there's no reason Hexy can't kick the tires and see what it would take. Then look at moving Neuvy.

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6 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Oh I didn't realize he was UFA. In that case, it sure makes things easier.

 

He is just an inch shorter.

 

But i think he way faster laterally and gets up off the ice light years faster than Elliott...a lot less mileage on him and stays relatively healthy and reliable...i would make him a reasonable offer for sure and hope he wants a change of scenery.

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2 minutes ago, brelic said:

Hak's goalie usage is worse than Lavi's who basically cost us Bob

 

Hak's usage is far worse.

 

I don't actually blame Lavi for Bob.  I think you can make a justified argument that he used the rookie okay (was it his second year? I'm still okay).  I squarely blame Holmgren for panic moves that included trading Bob.

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1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

Hak's usage is far worse.

 

I don't actually blame Lavi for Bob.  I think you can make a justified argument that he used the rookie okay (was it his second year? I'm still okay).  I squarely blame Holmgren for panic moves that included trading Bob.

 

I agree, the only real mistake that Lavi made was to play Bob in that one playoff game which eliminated his waiver exemption. But that didn't cause any issues in an of itself, other than to force the Flyers to keep him up the next season. Bringing in psycho is what ultimately forced Bob out of town.

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