An Interesting Take on Flyers vs. VGK

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

I thought this was a great take on the O and B relative to VGK.  We play a defensive, risk-averse game, they go after people.  On face, their castoffs shouldn't be in a Cup final. Well, what can we do better:

 

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2018/5/21/17374904/viva-las-vegas-gallant-hextall-hakstol-flyers-fleury

 

I hope Hakstol and Hextall learn from VGK.  

 

Best,

 

Howie

[OccamsRazor]

7 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I thought this was a great take on the O and B relative to VGK.  We play a defensive, risk-averse game, they go after people.  On face, their castoffs shouldn't be in a Cup final. Well, what can we do better:

 

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2018/5/21/17374904/viva-las-vegas-gallant-hextall-hakstol-flyers-fleury

 

I hope Hakstol and Hextall learn from VGK.  

 

Best,

 

Howie

 

Morning Howie,

 

I posted his comments last page.

 

Wasn't aware there was an article on it but @ruxpin discussed this briefly. 

 

However i agree when you have the horses why not play an aggressive style??

 

Unless when you look at the roster they have some of the horses but not enough??

 

I think so....for one they just don't have the goalie to do this with.

 

However what can be still gleaned from this is to encourage your players to be smart press and pursue the puck and no matter what don't kill them for every mistake they make and punish them they are young....coach them up.

[ruxpin]

Puck Hunting! 

[Howie58]

Watching the conference finals games reminds me of how far we have to go in terms of offense.  TB and VGK have skills we seem to lack.

 

My gut says a lot of GM's and coaches have looked at the conference finals and asked themselves some tough questions about roster and style.  The post-strike NHL made for a different game; now we seem to be in a new era of attacking/swarming offense.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Watching the conference finals games reminds me of how far we have to go in terms of offense.  TB and VGK have skills we seem to lack.

 

My gut says a lot of GM's and coaches have looked at the conference finals and asked themselves some tough questions about roster and style.  The post-strike NHL made for a different game; now we seem to be in a new era of attacking/swarming offense.

 

 

 

I got no problem with that it makes for exciting hockey.

 

I just hope Hextall and Hak take note and plan accordingly for next year.

 

A deep reflection on their personel needs to be done and hopefully modified for the "new style".

[ruxpin]

Stick with the program.   Maybe, just maybe, the Flyers become the standard-bearer for whatever the "new style" is in 3-4 years.   You start altering now and deciding you don't have the style for VGK or the Bolts or Jets NOW and take 3-4 or 5 or whatever years to emulate, you end up with a 3-4 or 5 year old style while whomever is raising the Cup has moved on with something new and suddenly you're reflexively changing to that and it's another 3-4 or 5 years.  Rinse. Repeat. 

 

Clarke, and then Homer, did this with the Devils

Homer did this with Buffalo. 

With Los Angeles

 

Stop emulating and build whatever you're going to build and innovate. 

[OccamsRazor]

21 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Stick with the program.   Maybe, just maybe, the Flyers become the standard-bearer for whatever the "new style" is in 3-4 years.   You start altering now and deciding you don't have the style for VGK or the Bolts or Jets NOW and take 3-4 or 5 or whatever years to emulate, you end up with a 3-4 or 5 year old style while whomever is raising the Cup has moved on with something new and suddenly you're reflexively changing to that and it's another 3-4 or 5 years.  Rinse. Repeat. 

 

Clarke, and then Homer, did this with the Devils

Homer did this with Buffalo. 

With Los Angeles

 

Stop emulating and build whatever you're going to build and innovate. 

 

Good point.

 

Personel still needs an upgrade.

[Howie58]

We seem to be building a "Defense of the Future" in terms of offensive skill.  Now we need the forwards to catch up.

 

I agree we should innovate.  But think about the Islanders, the team that became "Best of Breed" after our Cups .  They combined size, skill, and speed.  We kept building big and center-oriented.  Nobody minded the store.  

 

Something is changing out there.  We lack speed and skill.  

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Good point.

 

Personel still needs an upgrade.

 

Well yeah.  But I think that's in progress.   I think at some point Hextall needs to go outside and bring in.  It's sounding like that's this summer, but I think it may actually be a summer too early for anything life-altering.   Probably some improvement to the bottom six and a 2nd pair defenseman (I'm not sure that's necessary, either).  

 

I'm irrationally excited about Frost, and to a lesser extent Ratcliffe.  And, of course, others.

 

Pretend for a second Hextall doesn't go outside for anything after next year (a mistake, I think, but stick with me).  Forget line combinations for a second but just to put the names up there:

 

Giroux  Couturier  Konecny

Lindblom  Patrick  Voracek

Twarynski Frost Ratcliffe

Strome (Martell, Laczynski) --  Rubstov (Varone, Laughton, Laberge, Vecchione)  -- Aube-Kubel (Sushko, Laczynski, Laberge, Knight, Allison)

 

Provorov     Myers

Ghost   Morin

Sanheim   Hagg

 

Friedman

 

 

Hart & (Lyon, Stolarz, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Tomek)

 

I know, I know.  Not everyone pans out.  But there are enough options that it looks like a decent team.  Add someone upfront, if necessary, or on the back end, and maybe in 3-4 years we're hosting the Cup and someone in Long Island is in a boardroom going "we have to scrap everything; that's how you do it in today's game!"

 

 

[brelic]

11 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

We seem to be building a "Defense of the Future" in terms of offensive skill.  Now we need the forwards to catch up.

 

I agree we should innovate.  But think about the Islanders, the team that became "Best of Breed" after our Cups .  They combined size, skill, and speed.  We kept building big and center-oriented.  Nobody minded the store.  

 

Something is changing out there.  We lack speed and skill.  

 

I'm not so sure we lack speed and skill. I think it comes down to execution and desire.

 

It could be because I watch the Flyers almost exclusively, but most teams we play it seems their players keep moving their feet and pursue the puck relentlessly. The Flyers often seem to passively pursue the puck (i.e. gliding), or not at all (i.e. standing around until the player makes a move). 

 

I think a small tweak in that approach can yield big results. 

 

EDIT: Also, if you look at the Flyers' and Knights' rosters side by side, I would take the Flyers roster.

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

Just now, brelic said:

I'm not so sure we lack speed and skill. I think it comes down to execution and desire.

 

I also think it's not a particularly forward-thinking position given the way this is being built.  I don't think you can look at some of our prospects and say "no speed or skill."  

 

Yes, if this were 2002 and you looked at it, you have to be in the mindset of trades or FA to do it.   It isn't and you don't.  We're still at the last stages of cleaning out and bringing in.   

 

But yes, right now there's not enough depth of speed and skill on the Flyers' roster.  But now is not the time to panic.  This is the time to start watching what the last 3-4 years of work will bear.

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

I think a small tweak in that approach can yield big results. 

 

Yeah, I don't know whether this is Hakstol's preference or if he's still working with what he's got, but the gliding, etc., you describe needs to change.  

 

 

[Howie58]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

But yes, right now there's not enough depth of speed and skill on the Flyers' roster.  But now is not the time to panic.  This is the time to start watching what the last 3-4 years of work will bear.

I hope so.  As I wrote Sam Carchidi a few days ago, we seem to be saying that "well, we will be elite in two years," and that has been a mantra as given.   The Hextall-Hakstol Duo needs to deliver a playoff series win within the next two years or be considered a failure.  

[brelic]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

Yeah, I don't know whether this is Hakstol's preference or if he's still working with what he's got, but the gliding, etc., you describe needs to change.  

 

 

 

Also, like I said in my edit, I would take the Flyers roster over the Knights roster. 

 

Something tells me if we had that roster under Hakstol, we wouldn't be any better. 

[ruxpin]

I also don't think I agree with the grouping of styles of VGK and Tampa (and I'll throw the Jets and Nashville in there).  

 

There is swarming across the board to an extent, but none of them do this like VGK.  Their style, to my eye, is different in many ways from anyone else in the tournament.  It's a product of the group that was thrown together and the coach putting together a system and style that fits his players (rather than the other way around--funny how that works!).

 

 

And Tampa didn't just arrive here (nor the Caps, obviously).  They've had several years in their accent and have added and tweaked and ultimately failed.  They're here now.   We're NOT there yet.  We're at a wholly different stage in the lifecycle and seem to be wondering why our 8 year old isn't driving yet.

[flyercanuck]

8 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

We seem to be building a "Defense of the Future" in terms of offensive skill.  Now we need the forwards to catch up.

 

I agree we should innovate.  But think about the Islanders, the team that became "Best of Breed" after our Cups .  They combined size, skill, and speed.  We kept building big and center-oriented.  Nobody minded the store.  

 

Something is changing out there.  We lack speed and skill.  

 

I agree on the D...wait til these guys hit their prime. Provorov/Ghost/Sanheim/Myers/Morin etc. should be an enviable blueline core for a long time.  Hextall may even add to that with 2-1sts again this year.

 

 There's plenty of good forwards in the prospect pool as well. Other than Patrick and Konecny, we just haven't seen it yet on the big team. But both those guys have speed and skill. So does Frost.  Rubtsov and Ratcliffe aren't exactly chopped liver. And again we will ad in this draft. Lindblom, Allison and Laczynski add some skill with grit. 

 

 To me the biggest plus of having Hextall as gm is that someone is finally trying to address the goaltending position. Hart might be the best prospect we have, period. Sandstrom is also a good one. ALL those players mentioned above should become better with each passing year. Beats the hell out of the old way of buying FAs who we got to watch get worse with each passing season.

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

Something tells me if we had that roster under Hakstol, we wouldn't be any better

 

Obviously, it's hard to say, but I tend to agree.

 

Gerard Gallant has done something that is oddly unique.  He has developed a system and playing style that suits the roster he has.  It's almost like he considered his roster and said, "this is what they can do" and devised something to magnify or take advantage of that and get the most out of it he could to where the sum is greater than its parts.  I say the "it's almost like" with considerable sarcasm because this seems like this should be common practice.   I say "oddly unique" because it's not common but, again, should be. [EDIT:  And, by the way, he did this in Florida, as well, yet they fired him and have suffered for it]

 

Hakstol is not alone in this, but he's among the majority of coaches who seems to come with pre-baked ideas of how the game should be played and what he likes and thinks should work --roster be damned.  This type looks at a roster full of sloths and demands an up-tempo game.  Or looks at a team with a bunch of defensive specialists (clearly, I'm talking in general on this one and not Flyer-specific) and wants run and gun.

 

Vegas has a lot of guys really working hard and working smart, but in my mind three guys are most responsible for where they sit:  McPhee, Gallant, and Fleury.   If you could give the Conn Smythe to a coach, this would be the year to do that.

[flyercanuck]

From the article... "They forecheck like demons. They back check like guys chasing after a thief that grabbed their kids’ ice cream cones."

 

 This is something I've never understood while playing or watching hockey. Why do guys need to be told to forecheck and backcheck? Don't you want to win? Doesn't it make sense if you force the other team to move the puck faster, they'll make mistakes? Or that you'll actually take it away from them?  

 

 I'm the guy you never have to tell that to...and if you don't I'm in your face about it. That was a big part of Clarkes Flyers winning. It's what made Mike Richards great until he went all Hollywood. And it's what highly skilled teams hate to play against.  

[brelic]

38 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Obviously, it's hard to say, but I tend to agree.

 

Gerard Gallant has done something that is oddly unique.  He has developed a system and playing style that suits the roster he has.  It's almost like he considered his roster and said, "this is what they can do" and devised something to magnify or take advantage of that and get the most out of it he could to where the sum is greater than its parts.  I say the "it's almost like" with considerable sarcasm because this seems like this should be common practice.   I say "oddly unique" because it's not common but, again, should be. [EDIT:  And, by the way, he did this in Florida, as well, yet they fired him and have suffered for it]

 

Hakstol is not alone in this, but he's among the majority of coaches who seems to come with pre-baked ideas of how the game should be played and what he likes and thinks should work --roster be damned.  This type looks at a roster full of sloths and demands an up-tempo game.  Or looks at a team with a bunch of defensive specialists (clearly, I'm talking in general on this one and not Flyer-specific) and wants run and gun.

 

Vegas has a lot of guys really working hard and working smart, but in my mind three guys are most responsible for where they sit:  McPhee, Gallant, and Fleury.   If you could give the Conn Smythe to a coach, this would be the year to do that.

 

I agree with your post and thoughts in general, but the bolded parts sound like you contradict yourself.

 

So is it the case that Gallant is truly a genius? Or, the more likely scenario, is that his general style, demeanor, and knowledge are a better match for the current Vegas team than his previous teams?

 

I say that not to take anything away from Gallant, but I think it's more likely that the stars are aligning. Put another way, Gallant in Philly with the current roster would in all likelihood not perform like the Golden Knights. And Gallant will have terrible seasons as his coaching career extends, guaranteed. 

 

 

[brelic]

33 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

From the article... "They forecheck like demons. They back check like guys chasing after a thief that grabbed their kids’ ice cream cones."

 

 This is something I've never understood while playing or watching hockey. Why do guys need to be told to forecheck and backcheck? Don't you want to win? Doesn't it make sense if you force the other team to move the puck faster, they'll make mistakes? Or that you'll actually take it away from them?  

 

 I'm the guy you never have to tell that to...and if you don't I'm in your face about it. That was a big part of Clarkes Flyers winning. It's what made Mike Richards great until he went all Hollywood. And it's what highly skilled teams hate to play against.  

 

They don't need to be 'told' to forecheck and backcheck (well, at least not constantly!). 

 

But they do need to be motivated to keep the tempo going. When I workout by myself, I have enough self-discipline to be honest, and work very hard. When I work out with my group and trainers, who are constantly yelling at me to "push through the pain" and "just five more reps", and I see everyone else upping their game too, well, I keep my tempo up way past what I would do without that motivation.

 

 

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I agree with your post and thoughts in general, but the bolded parts sound like you contradict yourself.

 

So is it the case that Gallant is truly a genius? Or, the more likely scenario, is that his general style, demeanor, and knowledge are a better match for the current Vegas team than his previous teams?

 

I say that not to take anything away from Gallant, but I think it's more likely that the stars are aligning. Put another way, Gallant in Philly with the current roster would in all likelihood not perform like the Golden Knights. And Gallant will have terrible seasons as his coaching career extends, guaranteed. 

 

 

I don't think I contradicted myself, but perhaps I wasn't clear.  I brought up Florida because I think he did exactly the same thing in Florida--created a system and approach that worked with the players there rather than the other way around. And the idiots there fired him anyway. And, in his absence, they've taken big steps back. 

 

One ingredient missing in Florida was goalie. Luongo is decent, but at no time has he played like Fleury (not consistently, anyway). For all of my Gallant accolades, they're not waiting for a finals opponent without Fleury.  I say that despite knowing they churned along while Fleury was hurt no matter who was put in net.  But I still believe gallant has gotten them to the dance. Fleury is getting them the ribbon. 

 

Gallant with the Flyers?  I don't know. Clearly, he wouldn't have the goalie. Maybe the results are better, but one point out of second was already over their heads.  I will say this:  if he were to succeed in Philly, his system and approach would have to look awfully different than that in Vegas. We don't have enough horses for that. 

[ruxpin]

10 minutes ago, brelic said:

I say that not to take anything away from Gallant, but I think it's more likely that the stars are aligning. Put another way, Gallant in Philly with the current roster would in all likelihood not perform like the Golden Knights. And Gallant will have terrible seasons as his coaching career extends, guaranteed

I think there's a fair amount of truth to that.  I still maintain this particular team is an odd situation where the coach got them there. That won't be the case every year, for sure, but it was the year. 

 

Honestly, I think similarly with the Eagles this year. Ordinarily, I do think the role of coach is often over exaggerated, but I think with VGK and the Eagles we probably have two examples where GM and coach were extremely large factors m

[brelic]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

I think there's a fair amount of truth to that.  I still maintain this particular team is an odd situation where the coach got them there. That won't be the case every year, for sure, but it was the year. 

 

Honestly, I think similarly with the Eagles this year. Ordinarily, I do think the role of coach is often over exaggerated, but I think with VGK and the Eagles we probably have two examples where GM and coach were extremely large factors m

 

Absolutely. That's why I was saying I don't want to take anything away from Gallant, because a coach's role, especially for a team of random individuals thrown together, is probably the most important factor in creating and fostering a sense of team-ness. At least at first. 

 

It will be more interesting once Vegas becomes a regular team, saddled with the same issues everyone else has - contracts, drafting and developing, trading, signings, etc. 

 

In other words, when the honeymoon's over lol.

 

[murraycraven]

I think Berube had it right all along:  Just skate harder!

[murraycraven]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Stick with the program.   Maybe, just maybe, the Flyers become the standard-bearer for whatever the "new style" is in 3-4 years.   You start altering now and deciding you don't have the style for VGK or the Bolts or Jets NOW and take 3-4 or 5 or whatever years to emulate, you end up with a 3-4 or 5 year old style while whomever is raising the Cup has moved on with something new and suddenly you're reflexively changing to that and it's another 3-4 or 5 years.  Rinse. Repeat. 

 

Clarke, and then Homer, did this with the Devils

Homer did this with Buffalo. 

With Los Angeles

 

Stop emulating and build whatever you're going to build and innovate. 

 

 

Could not agree more... as much as the growing pains suck it would be foolish to deviate from the plan.   The Flyers have had the same old mentality for decades and it has not worked.   There are no guarantees in the NHL for winning a cup and maybe the "plan" won't work but for now I am in favor of watching the home-grown talent become NHL players.   

 

There is a lot to like about the future and I would be shocked if Hextall deviates from the plan.  I see next season similar to this one with maybe making the playoffs a bit easier.   I see the team being more talented by the pure subtraction of the UFAs.  But then again, and as always, there is that goalie thing that seems to always be an issue 80)