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CreaseAndAssist

Wild Message Board Memories...

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On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:42 PM, rottenrefs said:

Fond memories? Remember this one?

A lot of it's whacked out here with a different format (and while it's only a portion it's quite long.)

 

Mean Hockey Guys Secret Meeting

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I said it was nice to see posts about hockey.  

 

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You guys actually talk hockey here instead of holding a good old boys internet bully contest in every thread?

 

 

If you don't think this site comes off that way, then your either in denial or you are oblivious.  Don't be butthurt.  

 

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Lots of people have come and gone over the years, for many, many reasons.  Ships passing in the night.  But some of us hang around, like farts in an elevator.

 

ople are a very small % IMO.

 

 

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CehNehDeh moved on because of personal choice issues. Great guy with a lot on his plate.

 

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Farts in an elevator... Tolerable. If you're chewing gum or something and grit your teeth convincing yourself "you'll live" everything will be just fine.

 

In a car, when a woman cuts loose a silent one and doesn't say anything. My God, I just about gag. Opening the windows late just means it's going to get caught in my hair or pores for Christ sake and minutes will go by as I hope my damn eyes will stop watering.

 

Farts when meds or something is causing them. Get used to it, welcome to old age.

 

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Drove by Reid's last Friday night 3-4 times. I'm hardly ever in St. Paul. Partly grew up around there though off Hodgson. Lived off East 7th for a bit in my 20's...

 

Anyway, the girl toy made a cake for a co-worker and while she ran it in to Patrick McGovern's Pub I kept going around a few blocks unable to find parking and not willing to look too hard. We weren't planning on lingering around.

 

Maybe one of you guys know of it. It was a two tier Groom's party cake... For a Wild fan. It was fancied up with the Wild trees, #8 and a pair of skates on top.

 

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Confrontational... These guys are too rich for your blood. They have character, will, determination, pride and enjoy just about everything hockey brings them in whatever form. For them it's not just an interest level it's a pure enjoyment level.

 

Kind of like when you blow your nose instead of just eating the boogers and licking your fingers. Maybe you can relate to that.

 

Would I ever meet these guys? Sure. It's very hard though as I'm over an hour away from the Excel (to say the least) but I've made it there a couple times over the past couple years and so far dragging the girl toy along on journey's like that, well let's just say they've been her company’s corporate suites I've been a guest in... And if I didn't have to drag a woman along with me (wait, I guess that could be construed as the other way around)... If the girl toy didn't drag her boy toy to the games I'd have freedom to wander around more and act like a normal citizen as opposed to a stuffy goodie two shoes.

 

Hanging around with some chicks at sporting events is sometimes worse than being constipated... If you know what I mean.

It would be like hanging around confrontational for eight to ten minutes. Not very joyful, ya know?

 

Otherwise I'd be there a ton more. Especially if it wasn't a six hour journey (time slot) every time.

 

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There is 0 chance he was chased away.  CehNehDeh had a sense of humor.

 

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I stopped in for a few beers Saturday after I picked up my ducats for the Habs tilt.  Talked to Tom for just a while....I love it that he is there - even on non-game days and makes a point to come around and talk to us fans...He even remembered me and laughed when I walked in and said to me: "Montreal Tickets, right?"  

 

I'm in for the meet-up - though I've met most of ya already

 

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I'd be in as long as my schedule allows me to make it down from Btown!

 

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He just posted.  It is Jagged_Ice.

 

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So are only those of you with a Y chromosome allowed in this club?

 

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Ha! MNSOTA,you got here first. Boys will be boys.

 

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Well the movie is called "Mean Girls".....I guess we can start our own club.

 

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MNWildatHeart is on of the sweetest, nicest people you could ever meet. She had a slick 'Mean Girls' sticker on her car window. I so wanted to peel it off, but, that woulda been...mean.

 

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What the!?

 

Who let the skirts in?

 

And yes, I'm referring to Confrontational and mplspug.

 

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Yea, its different when you actually have REAL friends than being someone like yourself with 15 screenames pretending to be 15 different people.  You can carry on with your facade though...its entertaining. 

 

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My little kindergarden teacher is far too funny...  Trust me when I tell you I have better things to do than create multiple AE's for this site - no offense - nothing on here is that crazy important...  But, I do find it interesting how you and "mr. crotch" seem to be very interested in each and every one of my posts - obsessed would probably be a better word...

 

You may think you're a badass - but a little birdy said that you get a little butthurt when anyone new comes to this forum...  Like your own little playground - constantly throwing stones - constantly trying not to be "that guy"...

 

You picking up what I'm laying down derek...?

 

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  I'd say thats probably because almost every one of your posts takes a dig at them lately (not saying they don't do it back it all goes both ways). Its your perogative to post what opinions you wanna post and I could care less as I skim over most of it but its kind of silly to assume that someone isn't going to respond when they're constantly being called out or slandered no matter who's the one slinging the mud in this circumstance between all of you. You obviously do have the time or you would have dropped it by now instead of egging it all on everyday for how long now?

 

As for the "whenever someone new comes to the forum" stuff we've heard it all time and time again... that "little birdy" is most likely someone who has had problems with one of them in the past trying to make a message board ally out of you in thier crusade against the "message board mafia". I'm not super old on this forum.. only probably 3-4 seasons now and although there was some ribbing when I first started posting I never caught the flack some of the people do lately and I wonder why that is? Either the "message board mafia" completely missed me as a new board member, I was given a Granlund/Shep style free pass or the whole ideal of the "MBM" existing is false. I don't buy the "everyone is out to get me" mentality some people come in here with .. because between all of these rants and e-fights over my time here there has been new people popping up and contributing with no problems from the older members at all. 

 

I've disagreed with LiG and Rotten a number of times myself and its never got personal.. infact, I've come to enjoy thier posts and insight even if its something I don't personally agree with or hold the same opinion on.. maybe its time to ask yourself why are you getting all of this flack when alot of the other newbies aren't and and alot of us haven't in the past when we were new? or you can keep on assuming everyone here is one of thier "lap dogs" as you so kindly put it just for having an opinion that is similar to thiers or doesn't agree with yours.

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Agree with Soulfly, kinda hard to feel for you Confrontational when you're digging at these guys with every post.  It's cowardly to put them on ignore and then continue to run your yap.  Either shut up about them or have the decency to drop the gloves and fight fair.  I get just as tired of the insults and jabs and bullying as anyone else but you're pretty much asking for it.

 

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Well I'll be... Thanks guys.  (While I'm aware I don't need to add to the drama but I do try bringing some humor along with it.)

 

Soulfly brought up a very valid point where 'a person in question' constantly digs and basically eggs on the same guy for years.

 

I added the for years of course, but it really is true. Very true and for the most part that's why I jump all over the freak(s) when all they're here for is to relentlessly badger someone while contending they're the ones being bullied.

 

And uh, mplspug, I think you now I was just plunking you in there for the heck of it - about the skirt crud. lol

 

 

Thanks!  Lots of laughs and good memories for me!

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7 hours ago, Fargocase said:

 

I think the time KC and others were being accused of killing the Wild boards was about five years before you joined.  Could be wrong, of course.  But that's damn rare.  😘

Yes, dead wrong as usual.

 

Actually, as recent as last year (and every year, and in old threads I've read from before I got there) new users would appear on the Wild message board, you guys would bully and browbeat them, and several regulars not there in ages would reappear claiming they went to other boards... Because you and a few others were the reason why they left - saying you guys contributing to killing the board.

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I always enjoyed the little battles between people and glad to see them continue. ;) 

 

I always liked to go back the the GDT and watch the transition of emotions throughout the game and how during it the sidetracks of recipes, Personal stories and so on. The pics, Gifs and photoshops too.

I know they still go on now but because of my schedule etc, I still have to record the game and watch it after it has started.

 

Also having fans from other teams (Edmonton in particular) show up to discuss things. That was fun too.

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10 hours ago, rottenrefs said:

Yes, dead wrong as usual.

 

Actually, as recent as last year (and every year, and in old threads I've read from before I got there) new users would appear on the Wild message board, you guys would bully and browbeat them, and several regulars not there in ages would reappear claiming they went to other boards... Because you and a few others were the reason why they left - saying you guys contributing to killing the board.

 

That's all we did...was kill the boards.  We were just internet bullies...who were people who hid on a screen.  I remember; it had to be six years ago or longer...when the guy who said he bought Wild season tickets when he was like 13 (he also said he he was a cop and was going to arrest us) said he was going to kick our ass.  We went to a game and met up at Reid's either before or after it was over...and the guy never showed up, what a surprise.  

 

But as I said earlier...I'll never forget the incredible rant we had with that Legion guy from Switzerland who got mad when we didn't go all crazy over Petteri Nummelin.  I think at one point I got him so upset he said he was going to shoot me or something like that.  Hahaha...the funny times at the old boards!  

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18 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

 

That's all we did...was kill the boards.  We were just internet bullies...who were people who hid on a screen.  I remember; it had to be six years ago or longer...when the guy who said he bought Wild season tickets when he was like 13 (he also said he he was a cop and was going to arrest us) said he was going to kick our ass.  We went to a game and met up at Reid's either before or after it was over...and the guy never showed up, what a surprise.  

 

But as I said earlier...I'll never forget the incredible rant we had with that Legion guy from Switzerland who got mad when we didn't go all crazy over Petteri Nummelin.  I think at one point I got him so upset he said he was going to shoot me or something like that.  Hahaha...the funny times at the old boards!  

 

Rotty diesn't get it.  He thinks it all starts with him.  He's either too stupid or too obstinate to understand we were discussing the Wild many years before he showed up with his sucks, sucks, sucks mantra.  I remember posting on the old hockey boards Rosie  O'donnell was going to be the first Wild Captain.  That Aaron Gavey was going to be the Wild's best Center, etc.  Being told 100 times we should just be glad MN has a new NHL team, forget the fact the team had the lowest payroll, even after the WCF run, year after year.

 

But Rotty and his haters can be proud - they did what people accused us of many times over the years - they actually did kill the Wild Msg Boards! Quite an impressive feat!

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@Fargocase no I do get it. Your attitude and reckless abandon to flame anyone not agreeing with you is why people left the board.

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22 hours ago, rottenrefs said:

@CreaseAndAssist might have been more than 6 years ago. Was it before Yeo was at the helm? Todd Richards might have been the head coach.

 

It probably was during the Richards' years.  But it was ages ago.  It was the last time I got together with Fargo.  The cop guy said he saw us there...but decided not to start anything.  I am pretty sure both Fargo and myself even told the guy what we were wearing to the game too.  Hence...the 'secret' meeting.  

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4 hours ago, Fargocase said:

 

Rotty diesn't get it.  He thinks it all starts with him.  He's either too stupid or too obstinate to understand we were discussing the Wild many years before he showed up with his sucks, sucks, sucks mantra.  I remember posting on the old hockey boards Rosie  O'donnell was going to be the first Wild Captain.  That Aaron Gavey was going to be the Wild's best Center, etc.  Being told 100 times we should just be glad MN has a new NHL team, forget the fact the team had the lowest payroll, even after the WCF run, year after year.

 

But Rotty and his haters can be proud - they did what people accused us of many times over the years - they actually did kill the Wild Msg Boards! Quite an impressive feat!

 

Hahahah...too funny.  I remember those days, heck even the old Fanhome Days too.  The people with the unhealthy Manny Fernandez obsession.  And who could forget the scintilating discussion some of the puckbunnies had about Brent Burns' hair...

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Fanhome had a prior name as well....I think it was hockeyboards.com. Fargo, were you there as well?

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I was on Hockeyboards.com and Fanhome.  I was a Moderator on one of them.  So long ago I don't remember which was first.  Did you ever meet MannyBaby?  Met her at Reid's a couple of times.  Back when Sylvain (sp?) Blouin and Manny Fernandez hung out there.  I remember after one game this big, drunk Canadian ragged on Blouin.  Fortunately it dudn't get ugly.

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I used to be a "bad fan" because I so wanted the Wild to keep improving.  But Dumpster Doug signed guys like Ferguson, a farmhand Dman from the Edm organization, classic soft Euro Tjarnqvist, and old school cement head goon Nasty Nazarov.  So many players have come and gone.  So many posters.   Makes me really miss the old Pollyanna fans. Nuck trolls, foreign fans of specific countrymen, and actual NHL fans who knew the game.  

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40 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

I was on Hockeyboards.com and Fanhome.  I was a Moderator on one of them.  So long ago I don't remember which was first.  Did you ever meet MannyBaby?  Met her at Reid's a couple of times.  Back when Sylvain (sp?) Blouin and Manny Fernandez hung out there.  I remember after one game this big, drunk Canadian ragged on Blouin.  Fortunately it dudn't get ugly.

 

Yes, that was who I was referring to as the person with the unhealthy Manny Fernandez obsession.  Speaking of the old boards, remember WildestDave, he just hosted a hockey memorabilia thing at Reid's today coincidentally.  He used to be a moderator on those old boards too.  I remember meeting her, Dave and his wife...you of course as well as others.  Shutterbabe, she's still a season ticket holder and still around too.  I still recall meeting you for some pre-game where the Children's Museum is currently located at at that pre-season game in Season #2; we played the Calgary Flames.  

 

I remember when Socodawgs jumped onto the Wild.com boards, I didn't really tear into him as much as I told him I didn't forget about what he did as a mod.  He immediately jumped off the boards after that.  He is the only person that I can say without just empty anecdotes from other places that I know I scared off.  

 

MNSOTA used to talk about those old days at Reid's when you used to see players over there a lot.  

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58 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

I was on Hockeyboards.com and Fanhome.  I was a Moderator on one of them.  So long ago I don't remember which was first.  Did you ever meet MannyBaby?  Met her at Reid's a couple of times.  Back when Sylvain (sp?) Blouin and Manny Fernandez hung out there.  I remember after one game this big, drunk Canadian ragged on Blouin.  Fortunately it dudn't get ugly.

 

The first time I was there in Season 1, as I was leaving, some drunk decided to throw a punch toward Tom, and let's say it didn't end well for the drunk. I think Jeff Nielson helped break things up as well. And of course, St. Paul's finest were but on the corner outside.

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Here's a Tom Reid's war story.  Me and my son Matt were there when he about 10.  Talking to other Wild fans.  A guy came up and wanted to trade tix.  About row 6, sec 115, season tix.  I don't remember where our tix were but not nearly as good.  Why? Because he was a great guy and wanted the kid to have a great time.  So we're in Bill's seats  (whatever his name was) and people all around Bill's seats talk to us.  In warm-ups a lady grabs Matt, goes down to the photo hole in the glass and hollers some Wild player, "Give the kid a puck!"  Some player comes over and gives him a puck.   Let the Haters hate,  but that incident defined the Wild organization.

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LOL, I forgot you were a mod.

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:42 AM, rottenrefs said:

topmemebers_2_most-posts.jpg

I am shocked I only had 541 posts! I swear it was way more then that. Thanks for sharing Rotty!


The old board was fun though. The characters that came in there were great. There was at least a few good posts each day where you could have a good laugh. Felt a little loose, free for all that you can deal trash but had to expect it to come back. What does make me happy is that a lot of the fun and good people from there are here too!

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As I was listening to Martin St. Louis' induction speech, I couldn't help but remember at that pre-season game against the Flames, St. Louis was playing in that game!  That was where it all started for him...not because of any of us, but interesting to be at that point in his career.  

 

You and I caught all kinds of flak for not being Wild homers on Fanhome.  I remember the ad nauseum discussion how this franchise was profiteering and fielding a bargain basement roster when it didn't need to.  If you read Mike Lynn's book, you could tell he had a strong aversion to the organization ever spending any $$$.  

 

MNSOTA deserves the credit for introducing me to everyone at Fanhome.  I remember when I'd get told, your wife is nice, but you are such an %sshole!  At times MNSOTA would ask me to stop causing problems...oh well, to the good ol' days!  

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10 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

 

You and I caught all kinds of flak for not being Wild homers on Fanhome.  I remember the ad nauseum discussion how this franchise was profiteering and fielding a bargain basement roster when it didn't need to.  If you read Mike Lynn's book, you could tell he had a strong aversion to the organization ever spending any $$$.  

 

 

My recollection is it got really contentious when we jumped from Fanhome to the official Wild board.  After the WCF Final run, my recollection is Dumpster Dough low-balled Dupuis and Gaborik, effectively ruining the season after the WCF run.     Wasn't that Curse-on-the-NHL  slimeball Walsh Gaborik's agent?  And it didn't get resolved until Gaborik fired his azz and got a new slimebaqll agent.

 

Anyway, the window was open to improve the team and Dumpster Doug didn't do anything constructive.  Again, after the lost season, when there was a plethora (gotta spit while saying that word) of UFA's Doug signed huge duds like Ferguson, Nazarov, Winehandle, and Tjarnquit.

 

When we pointed it out that, even after the windfall profits from the WCF playoff games, we STILL hand a bottom three payroll we got two standard replies:

 

"Just be thankful you have an NHL team."

And

"Don't mortgage the future."   What was so stupid is we were talking about signing UFAs!  There was absolutely zero logic in that.   UFA's have no future penalty, other than the Cap Hit, and the Wild had such a low payroll a half dozen expensive UFAs wouldn't have mattered!   Instead Dumpster Doug signed Euro trash "Stars" and picked up waiver wire guys.

 

Good times!  Naysayers vs Pollyannnas!   :D

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On 11/13/2018 at 5:58 PM, Fargocase said:

 

My recollection is it got really contentious when we jumped from Fanhome to the official Wild board.  After the WCF Final run, my recollection is Dumpster Dough low-balled Dupuis and Gaborik, effectively ruining the season after the WCF run.     Wasn't that Curse-on-the-NHL  slimeball Walsh Gaborik's agent?  And it didn't get resolved until Gaborik fired his azz and got a new slimebaqll agent.

 

Anyway, the window was open to improve the team and Dumpster Doug didn't do anything constructive.  Again, after the lost season, when there was a plethora (gotta spit while saying that word) of UFA's Doug signed huge duds like Ferguson, Nazarov, Winehandle, and Tjarnquit.

 

When we pointed it out that, even after the windfall profits from the WCF playoff games, we STILL hand a bottom three payroll we got two standard replies:

 

"Just be thankful you have an NHL team."

And

"Don't mortgage the future."   What was so stupid is we were talking about signing UFAs!  There was absolutely zero logic in that.   UFA's have no future penalty, other than the Cap Hit, and the Wild had such a low payroll a half dozen expensive UFAs wouldn't have mattered!   Instead Dumpster Doug signed Euro trash "Stars" and picked up waiver wire guys.

 

Good times!  Naysayers vs Pollyannnas!   :D

 

Yea, happy to have the NHL back was worthy of the Common Man's "IALTO" (I Always Love That One) line.  Yea, don't mortgage the future was also a wonderfully sad argument about spending money on free agents when you were a bottom 5 team in payroll.  Damn, you and I had to deal with a small army of fools who tried to tell us to drink the company Kool-Aid.  

 

You are right, it was Allan Walsh that got Gaborik AND Dupuis to hold out in 2003-04.  Dupuis ended up taking a lesser offer when the team was more than happy to let him sit and then when he came back he sucked.  I don't think I laughed so hard at anything on the boards more than the quip someone had about Dupuis being unable to drop a piece of candy in a Halloween pumpkin / bucket because his aim was so poor.  For whatever reason I could literally picture that happening and him standing their and sighing at how he missed yet again.  Then Gaborik...came back later too, this time for the same offer the team made him in the summer after he canned Walsh.  

 

People used to give me crap about 'having a blog that no one reads' when I started, and at some points I wondered if that was true until I got a comment from Allan Walsh about something I said about Gaborik a few years later.  I don't even remember precisely what he said other than he tried to correct me on something.  And I was like, hey aren't you the jackhole that got Gaborik to hold out?  

 

So many good memories there.  And yes, it was contentious, because Fanhome and the Wild.com boards were their own sort of turf.  But the modding over at fanhome became oppressive and they kind of morphed into a Go Wild Go place or your not welcome.  I know I was suspended multiple times for simply disagreeing with people too often.  

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I always liked Dupuis!  Yeah, it was hilarious when he let one rip from the faceoff circle and missed the net by 10 feet!  People used to really rag on him in Gameday threads!  In the Wild's first year a poster came on and posted about Dupuis, before he had made the Wild.  I didn't know anything about him, I think he went undrafted because he broke a leg or something late in his junior career.  Anyway, this female fan of his piqued my interest so I looked him up and followed his career closely, starting when he was in the AHL.  I never met the girl, but we corresponded on the boards.  She wasn't another Puck Bunny postimg silly chit about his hair...  You could tell she was French by the way she posted.   I had a mental picture of her as a young cutey with a darling French accent!   It might have been Dupuis' Mom or Gramma. but in my mind's eye she was a hot young French chick!  😘

 

I remember an argument with a Dupuis hater from way back then.  Said it was an absolute fact that Dupuis would never, NEVER score 20 goals again!   Of course, it took Pascal several years to make it to Crosby's wing, but that's one case where I'd love to throw an "I TOLD YOU SO!" back into that hater's face.

 

Other than from the AV's official NHL board, I have never been banned anywhere.  And that was a totally bogus ban, I wasn't flaming anyone, they had some total Nazi Mods that refused to allow anything anti-Avs.

Edited by Fargocase

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1 hour ago, Fargocase said:

I always liked Dupuis!  Yeah, it was hilarious when he let one rip from the faceoff circle and missed the net by 10 feet!  People used to really rag on him in Gameday threads!  In the Wild's first year a poster came on and posted about Dupuis, before he had made the Wild.  I didn't know anything about him, I think he went undrafted because he broke a leg or something late in his junior career.  Anyway, this female fan of his piqued my interest so I looked him up and followed his career closely, starting when he was in the AHL.  I never met the girl, but we corresponded on the boards.  She wasn't another Puck Bunny postimg silly chit about his hair...  You could tell she was French by the way she posted.   I had a mental picture of her as a young cutey with a darling French accent!   It might have been Dupuis' Mom or Gramma. but in my mind's eye she was a hot young French chick!  😘

 

I remember an argument with a Dupuis hater from way back then.  Said it was an absolute fact that Dupuis would never, NEVER score 20 goals again!   Of course, it took Pascal several years to make it to Crosby's wing, but that's one case where I'd love to throw an "I TOLD YOU SO!" back into that hater's face.

 

Other than from the AV's official NHL board, I have never been banned anywhere.  And that was a totally bogus ban, I wasn't flaming anyone, they had some total Nazi Mods that refused to allow anything anti-Avs.

 

Sounds like the old Vancouver Canucks boards. Wouldn't allow any email addresses from Hotmail.com or gmail.com and only positive things about the Canucks...like this:

Image result for dan cloutier beach ball

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2 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Sounds like the old Vancouver Canucks boards. Wouldn't allow any email addresses from Hotmail.com or gmail.com and only positive things about the Canucks...like this:

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

'Trash Can' Dan Cloutier!  Even @DJ Ricky should agree with that!  Dupuis was undrafted, and you're right...a broken leg was at the heart of that story.  Then he did really well with the Cleveland Lumberjacks (as did Richard Park) but the IHL and the Lumberjacks folded after that first year (2000-01).  A few IHL teams joined the AHL like Milwaukee, Grand Rapids, Chicago and Houston...but most of their league disappeared shortly thereafter.  

 

Dupuis' strange tendency in 2003-04 was to skate just inside the blueline and blast a slap shot...often when he had the room to take it in closer he didn't...he just cannonaded a shot 10-feet wide and turn it over.  It drove me and many others crazy.  After the hold out, I wanted nothing to do with him.  Then he got some better, more scoring roles on Atlanta and later Pittsburgh and his career took off.  We still have a puck with his autograph on it at our house; and I got another Pascal Dupuis signed puck from a podcast I listen to out of Iowa believe it or not (they happen to have one big Pittsburgh fan on it).      

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On 6/1/2018 at 4:10 PM, rottenrefs said:

@PtoJoneser yep, he was pretty good. Good, bad, all things in-between but hilarious.

 

However when angelina_e left the place really took a hit.

 

Awww...feeling the love. 😊

 

On 6/1/2018 at 8:25 PM, Jagged Ice said:

Now if only I would have saved a Crock-Pot recipe that either you or Angie posted. I actually think it was Angie. It was so easy and simple, yet I can't even remember the protein source. It was my go to for a few months. 

 

I'd gladly share it again if you remember what it is!

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On 11/21/2018 at 2:57 PM, angelina_e said:

 

Awww...feeling the love. 😊

 

 

I'd gladly share it again if you remember what it is!

 

No one is mentioning Jackbag?  Or the other mega disrupters...like EMIREiD.  It seemed like just about ever few months there had to be a major message board pissing match.  The plethora of people just sitting back and watching it all unfold...

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