How Close Are The Flyers?

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

I don't think he's going to trade 2 good young D men to protect one

 

Never say never.

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

You keep saying that he'll trade them for something rather than lose them, but unless he trades them for picks, he'll be trading them for something that would also be easily taken by Seattle.

 

Yeah you could flip Sanheim (just for example) for a prospect that wouldn't require protection.

 

It's not that hard. You just have to make your mind up have a plan and execute it while you still have leverage.

[King Knut]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They have a 2nd round pick.

 

They don't have a 3rd round thanks to Mrazek.

 

I would however flip Gudas for a 3rd to replace it.

 

Oh right, because we didn't advance, right?  GOod deal.  I'd trade Gudas for a 3rd at this point too.  Just to get him off the team.  

 

And I don't think it's entirely his fault.  I think it's a situation where he is bad for us and we're bad for him and everyone will do better if he's someplace else. 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What he never got a chance to play in the playoffs.

 

So we'll never know what he can do.

 

But i'll tell right now i would take him over Bernier.

 

I'm just not up on Lyon.  

I really didn't think he looked good.  He got better and then he got worse, but he never looked strong to me.

 

The reason I like Stolarz better (though we'll see how his knee is) is because he's got that thing that just calms the game down a bit.  He's most likely not going to make the amazing save, but he is likely to make the easy to average saves and he's likely to make them in a way that are more easily controlled by the defense.  Which just calms play down in his own end.  

 

Lyon was so jittery in his first stint and just looked horrible, like beyond horrible.  He got better in his second stint and looked decent, but even when he started making the expected saves, things didn't get easier in his own end.  

 

Now I FULLY believe this is in part because of how the defense plays.  I don't know if it's Hakstol or if it's Murphy or who the hell it is, but the DMen on this team (even the good ones) seem to be coached rather idiotically in their own zone and that needs to change urgently.  

 

They're a slower team and I think this is why their PK sucks and why they lost so many 1 goal leads at the end of games, because they just lose races to the puck... but the D men in particular seem to be so consistently in the wrong position to make a play on a rebound that it feels like it's a systemic problem, not an individual problem.  

 

All that aside, i still might have played Lyon in the playoffs because the team tends to play more defensively responsible and carefully in front of younger less experienced goalies, and they played horribly irresponsibly for 3/4 of that series.  

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I'm just not up on Lyon.  

I really didn't think he looked good.  He got better and then he got worse, but he never looked strong to me.

 

14 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Lyon was so jittery in his first stint and just looked horrible, like beyond horrible.  He got better in his second stint and looked decent, but even when he started making the expected saves, things didn't get easier in his own end.  

 

I'm with you on Lyon.  However, just to play Devil's advocate, while before he came up I saw nothing to tell me he's an NHL goalie and his stint did nothing to change my mind, the way he played since returning to the Phantoms says to me that maybe he's decided what needs to be done and is working harder or smarter or something.   I don't want to hitch my wagon to him, but I'd like to see what he does at the NHL at least in camp before returning to my initial insistence that he doesn't belong in the NHL (I've previously said he's Neil Little 2.0).

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

 

I'm with you on Lyon.  However, just to play Devil's advocate, while before he came up I saw nothing to tell me he's an NHL goalie and his stint did nothing to change my mind, the way he played since returning to the Phantoms says to me that maybe he's decided what needs to be done and is working harder or smarter or something.   I don't want to hitch my wagon to him, but I'd like to see what he does at the NHL at least in camp before returning to my initial insistence that he doesn't belong in the NHL (I've previously said he's Neil Little 2.0).

 

This is a good point.  One thing I can definitely hand to Lyon is that he is a studious player.  He learns from his mistakes.  Maybe thats just the IVY League in him, but he really seems to improve on something each time he gets back in there.    While I don't love what I've seen, I do think that's a very positive attribute, especially for a goalie and who knows how far that can get him.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I don't get why everyone is hating on Gudas. He had one bad year. That's it. Every player in the league has experienced a bad year at some point or another. Part of Gudas's bad year was that the imbecile behind the bench used him in a role he normally doesn't play. Let Gudas go back to being the hard hitting, defensive guy that can get the puck out quickly and he becomes useful again. Or, deal for his old partner Del Zotto and let them go to town.....lol

[ruxpin]

26 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Let Gudas go back to being the hard hitting, defensive guy that can get the puck out quickly and he becomes useful agai

 

That's not the coach.  It's that he doesn't know how to do that without incessant penalties and suspensions.  I can't blame him, because the fricken goalposts keep getting moved on him.   I forget who was involved at the moment, but the one he didn't even touch the dude and got thrown from the game.   I really think he's to the point that he has a game to play but no longer knows how to do it within the rules and quite legitimately doesn't even know what the rules are.   So, he's been castrated.  I, for one, don't hate the guy.  I feel bad for him, because he was effective in what he did.  I'm not sure he's not gun shy at this point, and as a result his positioning is horrible.

 

I hope he figures it out, for his own sake.  But there are a bunch of kids pressing him and I don't know that it'll be in Philly.

[Howie58]

I am going to repeat something I said at the end of last season.  This team has among the highest winning percentages in the regular season (.57) but that drops to 13th historically (.51).  We may make progress in the regular season, but we are a middling team when it counts.  So, I have to ask--when do we win at least one round in the playoffs, something we haven't done for six years?  

 

Again, being a broken record, I'd say it is two years.  If we don't do that by 2019-20, it is time to say goodbye to Hakstol-Hextall.  We have to draw a line in the sand. That's my two cents.  Drafts, trades, maturation...whatever: It needs to gel and produce playoff wins.  That sounds mercenary, but it's a reality.   We play in a league with enormous parity.  We can make improvements...so can others.  We have had our two fluky playoff runs in the past decade, and that's about it.  Patience may be a virtue, but mine is wearing thin.

 

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

I am going to repeat something I said at the end of last season.  This team has among the highest winning percentages in the regular season (.57) but that drops to 13th historically (.51).  We may make progress in the regular season, but we are a middling team when it counts.  So, I have to ask--when do we win at least one round in the playoffs, something we haven't done for six years?  

 

Again, being a broken record, I'd say it is two years.  If we don't do that by 2019-20, it is time to say goodbye to Hakstol-Hextall.  We have to draw a line in the sand. That's my two cents.  Drafts, trades, maturation...whatever: It needs to gel and produce playoff wins.  That sounds mercenary, but it's a reality.   We play in a league with enormous parity.  We can make improvements...so can others.  We have had our two fluky playoff runs in the past decade, and that's about it.  Patience may be a virtue, but mine is wearing thin.

 

 

 

It depends on the goalie situation next year.  If that has improved at all (which could mean anything from Elliott being healthy, to Hextall bringing in someone to Hart being forced to step in because everyone got hurt again and kicking butt way earlier than we want him to) I FULLY expect an advance next year.  

 

I'm not sure that's what's best for getting to a conference final faster because I don't think that happens until Haksol is replaced with an actual hockey guy... but I'd love to be wrong about that.  

 

Honestly... and this IS going to sound crazy, but... I think the Penguins series was winnable with a healthy, half decent goalie.   Pre-Injury Elliott for instance was probably good enough to win in a 7th game series.  

 

I think this team with a healthy half decent goalie beats the Capitals if they'd played them in the first round and probably the Maple Leafs.

 

The Devils are a question mark because they had our number this year.  Blue Jackets I think they could take.  Bruins and Lightning are the others I'm not sure about.  

 

But the Flyers haven't had a healthy half decent goalie in the playoffs since 2000.  They got to the Conference Finals with a rookie Boosh then and he looked like the real deal until barber decided to go all in on Roman fire in his pants.  They made the conference finals with Robert Friggin' Esche.  They make the Stanley Cup Finals with a ten years later Boosh and Michael "Leaky" Leighton (and took a Dynasty team to OT of game 6 despite the fact that BOTH sub standard goalies were injured).  Then they advanced to just the 2nd round with Boosh again and a mentally unstable head case (Roman part II) And since then they've been trying to Advance with Scotch tape and bailing wire.  

 

Hextall has a nice stock of young Goalie talent, but until they're ready or we see a temporary upgrade this team's playoff fate rests with the health of whatever crappy make shift kinda okay when he's not hurt goalie happens to be backstopping him that week.  If whoever that is is injured again, it's light's out.  We've seen this.  We know this.  It's natural.

[Howie58]

Having a competent goalie would help. So would an offense that applies pressure constantly and keeps in the attack zone a lot.

[OccamsRazor]

7 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Having a competent goalie would help.

 

Yep.

 

Just look at the starting goalies in the East this year....who would you pick to play goal for your team here are your choices...

 

Holtby

Schneider

Vasilevskiy

Murray

Rask

Bobrovsky

Andersen

Elliott

 

 

...yeah if your picking for your team we know who would be last to be picked...you get what you paid for.

[Howie58]

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

..yeah if your picking for your team we know who would be last to be picked...you get what you paid for.

Yes....and it makes me sad to think we had Bobo.  We need to keep our fingers crossed that one of our prospects pans out.

 

 

[King Knut]

19 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I don't get why everyone is hating on Gudas. He had one bad year. That's it. Every player in the league has experienced a bad year at some point or another. Part of Gudas's bad year was that the imbecile behind the bench used him in a role he normally doesn't play. Let Gudas go back to being the hard hitting, defensive guy that can get the puck out quickly and he becomes useful again. Or, deal for his old partner Del Zotto and let them go to town.....lol

 

I personally don't blame Gudas for his bad year.  I agree that it's Hakstol to blame for that... but of all the things that I'll blame Hakstol for, this is one I don't think he's wrong on.

 

That style of a player is a problem for the game the Flyers are playing. Gudas' game doesn't fit the Flyers system at this point and it's not adapting enough to do so.

 

In addition, Gudas being on HIS game (while I agree would be better for the Flyers than what he's doing) will simply result in him being suspended more and more.  The Flyers Aren't Allowed to Hit Like that.  

 

I have a lot of issues with the way Hakstol has the D playing in their own end.  They do very well in the neutral zone and in the other end, but in their own zone, they literally aren't playing textbook basic hockey.   The problem is that while Gudas isn't a fit for Hextall's system, he's not necessarily a fit for what a fixed Hextall's system might look like.  

 

I was mad at him for breaking Sean Couturier, but it turns out it made Sean Couturier better which is odd.

 

Long and short is that I think moving on from Gudas will be good for Gudas and good for the Flyers.  He'll be able to play his game better somewhere else (preferably in the west) and the Flyers won't suffer as much from having his game happening in an orange and black jersey.  

[King Knut]

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Just look at the starting goalies in the East this year....who would you pick to play goal for your team here are your choices...

 

Holtby

Schneider

Vasilevskiy

Murray

Rask

Bobrovsky

Andersen

Elliott

 

 

...yeah if your picking for your team we know who would be last to be picked...you get what you paid for.

 

If we talk about the goalie problem though, we have to be realistic.  It's not like picking teams at a pond.  They weren't all just sitting there and Ron chose Elliott.  He literally did pick last because Homer screwed up with Bob 5 years ago or whenever it was.  

 

THe other half of that coin is that Ron did Choose well since taking over.  Hart's the best goaltending prospect in Hockey.  I actually prefer dark horses to how well touted this kid is because the position is crazy and you can be awesome at one level and nothing at the next, but... BUT it's not just Hart.  The flyers have a pretty darn good stock of goaltending prospects.  I don't know when that was true.  EVER.  It feels like at least one or two of them actually SHOULD turn out to be one of the OTHER guys on your list up there.  

 

The question is, now badly do they want to win next year and is it worth blowing an asset to get better in net for a year.

 

I for one think it might be for the right asset.  

 

[King Knut]

13 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Having a competent goalie would help. So would an offense that applies pressure constantly and keeps in the attack zone a lot.

 

Having D men in the right position in their own zone, so they can win a puck race or two and then outlet into the neutral zone will also help.

 

That doesn't even require acquiring anyone.  Just some competent coaching.

[Howie58]

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

That doesn't even require acquiring anyone.  Just some competent coaching.

Well, this is part of the equation.  Without playoffs, or possibly a playoff win, he might go this year.  

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

I agree that it's Hakstol to blame for that

 

I forget the part to add this isn't meant towards you, but for others i have seen blame Hak for this. I'm not sure you will get it because i had to edit it to add it. My apologies.

 

Thats a crock of s.h.i.t!

 

So people (and i have seen it said) think Hak showed the other defensemen how to play around the crease but not Radko???

 

They think he showed the rest of the guys how to separate guys from the puck except Radko??

 

That is total ********. Now i'm down with blaming hi for a lot that is wrong with this team.

 

But basically making Radko ineffective is all on Radko.

 

He has been taught for a long time how to make a legal check and when he can't do so he must avoid it....and he hasn't/won't so that is all on him.

 

Man i get the Hak hate i do but some of this stuff is on the players.

 

I don't see anyone blaming Barry Trotz for Tom Wilson's dumb ass play and neither should Hak be blamed.

 

He they deserve blame it's that they continue to play them instead of sitting them for their selfish head up their ass style.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

Long and short is that I think moving on from Gudas will be good for Gudas and good for the Flyers. 

 

I think they can flip him to the Canes who have said they want to get tougher for a 3rd at least.

 

If not them then maybe the Ducks since i don't think they bring back Bieksa and he was a right hand shot.

 

So he has some value and Ron needs to find it.

 

The Isles only have 4 Dmen under contract as well.

 

 Those are just 3 of the teams i can think of.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

It's not like picking teams at a pond.  They weren't all just sitting there and Ron chose Elliott

 

 

 

That is irrelevant to the point i am trying to make.

 

The point being if you're the fat kid left when guys are picking teams and they don't pick you it should tell you something.

 

The quality of goaltending isn't up to par.

 

I was just trying to be nice i didn't even include the Western conference which would have made it look even worse.

 

So let's do so...

 

Quick

Rinne

Jones

Gibson

Dubnyk

Hellebuyck

Valarmov

Fleury 

Holtby

Schneider

Vasilevskiy

Murray

Rask

Bobrovsky

Andersen

Elliott

 

So we put them all in starters from the teams.

 

Varlamov was hurt so i still included him and yet still we see if i am picking my goalie there will be 15 goalies selected before Elliott.

 

So now we see hey they made the playoffs despite the goaltending!!!

 

It would be nice once before i die if they were to make the playoffs because of the goaltending!!!!!!!

 

So for this club to get better they must get better in net. It must.

 

[King Knut]

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So for this club to get better they must get better in net. It must.

 

 

I’m  not expressing my point well I fear.  

 

If your only point is that the goaltending g needs to get better, you will get no arguments from anyone.  

 

But identifying the root of the problem starts 17 years ago with a big franchise ruining swing and a miss in 2012.  

 

This has been a direct development focus for the organization under Hextall and as of now they are doing all the right things to get maybe several of those upper tier goalies coming up through within. 

 

As as for last year, Elliott wasn’t the fat kid picked last.  He was the fat kid picked second last.  Mason was the fat kid picked last.  Bernier also got a worse deal than either.  There are also others (Nilsson e.g.)  who are just career Backup and we’re barely chosen at all. 

 

Which is is just to say that with what was left in the UFA pool by the time 7/1 came around, Hextall did okay.  

 

Amd Elliott wasn’t bad.  He wasn’t good but he was good enough.  What he wasn’t was durable enough to withstand Hakstol’s insanity and eventually he got hurt.  

 

Thats is why he sucked in the playoffs.  He’s not better than most of those guys, but he’s not as worse as he looked.  

 

The goaltending IS getting better.  The only question is whether it can get better in Free agency this year without tying the team to a long useless contract (i’m not sure it can) or if it can get better by trading an asset for an established player (I kinda like this idea) or it they stand pat, then it gets better through Hakstol playing Elliott and Sandstrom/Stolarz/Lyon/HArt/god help us Neuvirth more intelligently. 

[OccamsRazor]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Mason was the fat kid picked last.

 

Well that was Mason's doing. Can't help him there. Elliott was hand picked by Ron. He settled. He got what he paid for.

[AJgoal]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He settled. He got what he paid for.

 

What other realistic option was there? It's not like Hextall could just go out and pick any of those 15 names that you list as better than Elliott, and there's no indication that a single one of them was available to the Flyers. It's one thing to want better goaltending, it's quite another to blame Hextall for not acquiring a goalie that wasn't moved to any team in the offseason, with the exception of Fleury during expansion.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

What other realistic option was there?

 

Could have pursued a trade with someone.

[AJgoal]

14 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Could have pursued a trade with someone.

 

But who, for what? You keep throwing the "He didn't try hard enough!" BS against the wall, without giving any kind of realistic expectation of what he could have done. The only goalies traded last offseason were Raanta (with Stepan) who cost the 7th overall and Deangelo. Would you have given up Patrick and Myers, which was the likely cost to a division rival? Or a first this year for a 35-year old Mike Smith?

 

It's all well and good to say "Trade for a good goalie!" But teams that have them aren't just giving them up (Unless you're Paul Holmgren). You have to blow them away, and even then most aren't going to give up a solid core piece at the most difficult position to find. So again, WHO would you have acquired last year that would have been better than Elliott, and what would you have paid to acquire him?