JVR back to Philly

[ruxpin]

27 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

At this point who do we believe is best suited for 3rd line center? If Frost was 15 lbs heavier, he would be the favorite.

 

Yeah, that's my concern.  It was mentioned, I think in this thread, that Frost doesn't have any more to prove/learn in juniors.  I actually agree with that thought, but I think there may be a desire to have him bulk up some more before going to the NHL (and AHL is not an option).    I wonder if he could come up and play wing until he bulks.  I don't know if that's even plausible.

[ruxpin]

30 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Weal is useless, he is like a third wheel. Vorobyev or Vecchione? or a longshot like Rubstov.  Is Simmonds traded for a center, which is probably not a good idea due to our surplus of young centers.

 

Should have just included this in my other post.

 

I don't like the Weal idea.  At all.  I'm with you in thinking he's useless.   I'm thinking probably Vorobyev or Vecchione.   It was only 3 on 3 at development today, but I couldn't figure out what Vorobyev was doing.    He kept forcing stuff that just wasn't there.   I think Rubstov is yet another year away, but maybe.    I don't like trading Simmonds for a center but that may be an option, too.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Out the door in a deal with Simmer????

 

HHHhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm???

 

Blockbuster: Simmer, Laughton, Gudas and Neuvy for............

 

Ryan Strome and Oscar Klefbom. You know Chiarelli can't help himself.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

32 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

At this point who do we believe is best suited for 3rd line center? If Frost was 15 lbs heavier, he would be the favorite. Weal is useless, he is like a third wheel. Vorobyev or Vecchione? or a longshot like Rubstov.  Is Simmonds traded for a center, which is probably not a good idea due to our surplus of young centers.

 

Well, Frost is up to 184 pounds and by the time the actual training camp starts, there's no reason he can't add another 5 to 10 pounds, which puts him in the 190 - 195 range. Gut feeling is that Rubstov is going to be getting groomed as a winger and Vorobyov and Vecchione are probably targeted for the fourth line with Raffl (which could actually make for one hell of a fourth line). The '3rd' line and bottom 3 could end up being one of the best units in the league. There's speed, there's scoring, there's physicality, there's defense and they'll be able to spell the top six when the need arises. 

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Well, Frost is up to 184 pounds and by the time the actual training camp starts, there's no reason he can't add another 5 to 10 pounds, which puts him in the 190 - 195 range. Gut feeling is that Rubstov is going to be getting groomed as a winger and Vorobyov and Vecchione are probably targeted for the fourth line with Raffl (which could actually make for one hell of a fourth line). The '3rd' line and bottom 3 could end up being one of the best units in the league. There's speed, there's scoring, there's physicality, there's defense and they'll be able to spell the top six when the need arises. 

 

Vorobyev i think will get every chance to prove he can play the 3rd line center role....he can't be worse than Filppula.

 

 

I think he could win due to his great passing ability and defensive awareness Gordon raved about him for the Phantoms and i think Laughton might be better suited at LW.

[Howie58]

Given our GMs patience, I don't see him bailing on Laughton. My wager is another year as 4th line center. But that's it.   Laughton has shown flashes of competence. I'd give him another shot.  Next year is a different story.  

 

I get the impression that Hexy isn't so eager to use free agency to get a  fourth-line center.  If Laughts isn't a plus we'll see an early season call up. 

 

Meanwhile, for the first time in longer than I care to remember, we may have two competitive top lines.  

[LegionOfDoom]

Loosing Brayden Schenns goals, just came back in signing JVR.

High shooter mentality, and does what Coots does on rebounds/deflections: keep whacking at it till it goes in mentality(Schenn would do also).Though Schenn would sometimes show some snarl.

There was one shift in the playoffs where JVR had me looking at the shift he had, and I pause for a second there, I saw Shadows of Lindros when he dominated that shift to score that goal.

I too remember how at times it looked like he felt secure as a career player and maybe gave off the impression as unconcerned as if this was a secondary part time job for beer money. But I think it's fair to remember when your very young and all of a sudden gonna be a millionaire, you can kind of let go of the gas. Spending time in Toronto and being given more responsibility out of necessity and opportunity helped him see the league his career was needing to shape into, to become a professional hockey player and what he needs to do if he wants to be paid as one.

 

JVR-Couts-Raffl(temp solution, till: Frost, Rat, Farabee come up)

Voracek-Giroux-Simmonds

Lindblom-Patrick- Konecny

Weal-(Vecci/Voroby)-Laughton

Jori/Weise

 

This is a think outside the box.

Very uncomfortable for the casual fan dynamic, but in putting pieces where they can boost each others production across four lines.

I know Raffy wouldn't be an ideal first line right wing but he can slot there and with the help of his linemates, can pot 20+ goals(how is that not a positive for the team.)

 

VGS line have played together and have some familiarity and could help Simmonds score more with his recovery this year(he's gonna need some help this year to get the most out of him during his rehabbing season.)

 

I would like to see the LPK line have a season to grow this year and take a bigger piece of the scoring pie for the team than last year. They need some time to grow in this league and can have some sheltered time together as they grow into a more dynamic scoring threat and can be given more responsibility as the year grows. (developing your young core.)

 

The fourth line can be a mixture of players that are responsible in their own end and contribute with some aggregate goal scoring as well. (This can be interchangeable pieces and can give AHL call ups some looks during the season: Vecci/Voroby/NAK/etc...)

 

This isn't set in stone for every shift for the next 82 games. But this would spread out the scoring and let the opponents game plan on this setup. The best time to overstack a line would then be to put the G/Coots/Konecny line on a shift where the other team ices the puck and has to put their tired line back on and then you strike them hard and you strike them long(Michael Scott angry stair) and overwhelm them with our top barrage of talent on tired shifts and miscommunicated plays/assignments/reads.

 

This is coaching to win, coaching to confuse/wear out your opponent.

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said:

There was one shift in the playoffs where JVR had me looking at the shift he had, and I pause for a second there, I saw Shadows of Lindros when he dominated that shift to score that goal.

 

Yeah, I remember those playoffs.  That's when I was saying aloud to myself, "it could be fun to watch him and Giroux for a couple years!"  And then he went back to doing this:

 

5 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said:

I too remember how at times it looked like he felt secure as a career player and maybe gave off the impression as unconcerned as if this was a secondary part time job for beer money.

 

 

If he's scoring the 30s and around 60 for points, I'll suffer through periods of time where he does the latter.

[ruxpin]

8 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said:

Very uncomfortable for the casual fan dynamic, but in putting pieces where they can boost each others production across four lines.

I know Raffy wouldn't be an ideal first line right wing but he can slot there and with the help of his linemates, can pot 20+ goals(how is that not a positive for the team.)

 

 

You know, it is (uncomfortable) but it harkens to the "put two guys together for each line and the others can slide around" thing.  I'm not thrilled with Raffl on the top line, but it could work.

 

I really don't like the "Voracek-Giroux-Simmonds" thing because you have 2 RWers.  I guess it's role thing in the offensive end, so I get that part, but I don't like it on the Flyers' side of the offensive blueline.

 

But again, it's probably going to need to be a "pair two guys" and interchange the rest.

[LegionOfDoom]

 

4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

If he's scoring the 30s and around 60 for points, I'll suffer through periods of time where he does the latter.

 

I remember feeling the same about Jeff Carter, and look how he changed his game.

I hope Reemer sees the value of being a 200 foot player, who knows maybe he can challenge for the Selke one day...

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said:

 

 

I remember feeling the same about Jeff Carter, and look how he changed his game.

I hope Reemer sees the value of being a 200 foot player, who knows maybe he can challenge for the Selke one day...

 

LOL @ Selke. 

 

The comparison to Carter's growth as a player probably really isn't far off.   I wasn't against trading him the first time (just what we got back), but I'm pretty okay with the signing.

[LegionOfDoom]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

 

You know, it is (uncomfortable) but it harkens to the "put two guys together for each line and the others can slide around" thing.  I'm not thrilled with Raffl on the top line, but it could work.

 

I really don't like the "Voracek-Giroux-Simmonds" thing because you have 2 RWers.  I guess it's role thing in the offensive end, so I get that part, but I don't like it on the Flyers' side of the offensive blueline.

 

But again, it's probably going to need to be a "pair two guys" and interchange the rest.

 

I hear you about being uncomfortable for sure.

But it's kinda like bringing along someone to complete the job at hand at work, you need that third person to complete the task and you either deal with it for now(temporary thing) and be the professional you are and get it done and move on to other important issues in the project. Like Hextall said not many players on a team are perfect players, and I really want to roll four lines this year and in this way you can do that until help arrives to straighten things out.

The importance of rolling four lines in an 82 game season cannot be understated. When we get to the playoffs, that's when we'll have the fresher team and can role play lines to better accommodate the opponent at hand.

I'm just also thinking the long game. Get Simmer back where he needs to be at. Get role players being able to move around during the playoffs and knowing they can contribute.

I think Vegas showed if you have players buying into a system, you can plug people in and not miss a beat.

[LegionOfDoom]

Again this isn't "Best of Breed" but that thinking doesn't always work out when your stable isn't full just yet.

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, LegionOfDoom said:

I'm just also thinking the long game. Get Simmer back where he needs to be at.

 

So is it Voracek you're moving off his natural wing?  Because moving Simmonds to left isn't moving back to where he needs to be at.  As an offensive unit I'm fine.   You have your guy in the crease causing havoc (Simmonds) and Voracek high slot and right side.  Giroux coming off the left hashboards.  And most of the shot origination is coming from the point anyway.   All three can play along the boards.

 

Again, though, my concern is coming back toward the Flyers' end.  I may be over-exaggerating the risk here some, but I'm not a huge fan of people playing on their offwing.  Both Simmonds and Voracek have been around long enough they can do it, I suppose.  I really didn't like Konecny on his offwing.  I think it did him a disservice, but he was obviously a lot younger.

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said:

Again this isn't "Best of Breed" but that thinking doesn't always work out when your stable isn't full just yet.

 

This goes with my above post:   Like you said, you can move around from that base architecture.   Was it Lavy who preached the 2/line and float the third?  Some Flyers' coach did that recently and I want to say it was him.

[LegionOfDoom]

I think Hak's coaching decisions shows the mentality that he doesn't want the kids to go on stage and show "The full Monty".

He want's them to be the wanker in the background for a while and earn their spotlight eventually.

This does work usually in the College Realms, but doesn't evenly translate at the NHL level to the same extent. You kinda have to let the freshmen get more time in there for differing reasons at the Pro level.

[LegionOfDoom]

20 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

So is it Voracek you're moving off his natural wing?  Because moving Simmonds to left isn't moving back to where he needs to be at.  As an offensive unit I'm fine.   You have your guy in the crease causing havoc (Simmonds) and Voracek high slot and right side.  Giroux coming off the left hashboards.  And most of the shot origination is coming from the point anyway.   All three can play along the boards.

 

Again, though, my concern is coming back toward the Flyers' end.  I may be over-exaggerating the risk here some, but I'm not a huge fan of people playing on their offwing.  Both Simmonds and Voracek have been around long enough they can do it, I suppose.  I really didn't like Konecny on his offwing.  I think it did him a disservice, but he was obviously a lot younger.

Yes it would be Jake who can move off wing as he has done several times. Not Ideal but more palatable than Simmer.

Absolutely I would not do this to the younger players, it would not be progressing their development( case in point: Schenn, Coots).

But vet players for sure should be able to muster up the cajones and go out there and play.

I think Haks system would help out as "team defense" would take over(override) the back checking offensive, neutral, defensive zones as a unit(if they follow protocol)

These are definetly moving parts in this system that have to be in sync.

That's the thing the vets would have the task of running this during the season.

The youth would have more of a softer task to acclimate themselves to a grueling 82 game season and all that goes with it.

3rd line would be somewhat sheltered. Fourth line would be a conservative line with a dash hear in there of a rookie/call up to see how it pans out for the season on callups/first look players.

Your first two lines would be your seniority line. being tasked with the difficult jobs, the third would be your not to recent hires in training for advancement to upper level responsibility.

And the fourth line, your crew to go out there and close or also see what talent is up and coming.

[LegionOfDoom]

Again this would be a solid base to work around with, nothing set in stone for 82 games but this should help out the Flyers as a team build on the season till reinforcements arrive and shelter us from 10 game losing streaks during the season.

[jammer2]

On 7/2/2018 at 5:44 PM, ruxpin said:

 

Yeah, that's my concern.  It was mentioned, I think in this thread, that Frost doesn't have any more to prove/learn in juniors.  I actually agree with that thought, but I think there may be a desire to have him bulk up some more before going to the NHL (and AHL is not an option).    I wonder if he could come up and play wing until he bulks.  I don't know if that's even plausible.

 

 As much as I love the OHL and CHL in general...I do a slight amendment should be made to this rule. NHL teams should have the right to place one 19 year old in the AHL, if it deemed best for their development. One player will not kill CHL teams....and in the end, we have to start doing what is best for the players development. Frost is a perfect case in point, he NEEDS to turn pro and face the rigors of competing against men. 

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, jammer2 said:

 

 As much as I love the OHL and CHL in general...I do a slight amendment should be made to this rule. NHL teams should have the right to place one 19 year old in the AHL, if it deemed best for their development. One player will not kill CHL teams....and in the end, we is have to start doing what is best for the players development. Frost is a perfect case in point, he NEEDS to turn pro and face the rigors of competing against men. 

 

It's so when he dominates in juniors other can come back a whine and say "but he did it against 16 and 17 year olds...yadah yadah..."

 

...it won't change the junior leagues need those Super Star in their league to draw attendance too.

 

I get both sides.

 

It won't change.

[flyercanuck]

On 7/2/2018 at 11:44 AM, csummers said:

They did exactly what I knew they would do. They went to try and find a guy who could do what schenn was doing for 5 million a year. No schenn at 5 million, but lehtera and JVR for 12. And schenn is only for two more years.

 Schenn with 70 points last year, JVR and Lehter combined for 62.

 They put themselves in this spot by letting go a guy who will play for just over 5 million for two more years. Salaries go up, schenn is a steal right now.

 Lots of people who said the flyers were "stuck" with giroux and 8 million now are saying van reimsdyk makes sense at 7.

 Hextall made a mess of this whole situation, plain and simple.

 

They got Frost AND Farabee for Schenn. They had to take Lehteras salary for it to work for St. Loo. 

 

Of course neither may ever make the NHL. And of course they may both end up better than Schenn. They're both better skaters in a league where that matters more than ever. They're both smarter players than Schenn. Time will tell. I'd do that trade again in a heartbeat. We lucked out with Frost and also with the Blues sucking last season enabling us to pick 14th and grab Farabee.

[mojo1917]

16 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

This goes with my above post:   Like you said, you can move around from that base architecture.   Was it Lavy who preached the 2/line and float the third?  Some Flyers' coach did that recently and I want to say it was him.

John Stevens... baked that cake

[hobie]

JVR

 

As a Leaf fan, I thought that having JVR was like having a designated hitter, he's valuable because he goes to the opposition's net, he will score goals but he has little value beyond these niches.

 

On TO he was on the 3rd line, Hymen and Leo Komarov got more icetime than him, he played extremely sheltered minutes and towards the end of last year he rarely received more than 12 minutes in icetime per game.

 

I noticed that some of you were inserting JVR in the top 6 which may be possible if the other 2 linemates are prepared to do all of the grunt work beyond scoring like defending, being creative, being physical or any other such chores.

 

So if Philly's coach(s) have the players to shield JVR from the hum drum going ons of a hockey game then he might prove valuable but a 15 goal scorer with a better head/heart for the game would probably be more useful.

 

Was JVR's results from the last 2 years an aberration or something that can be held as a given constant? The bulk of JVR's offense happens on the PP and his new found productivity coincided with the introduction of Marner onto his PP unit.

 

I give it a year before it becomes painfully obvious that JVR is now going to be overpaid and overtermed.

[brelic]

7 hours ago, hobie said:

JVR

 

As a Leaf fan, I thought that having JVR was like having a designated hitter, he's valuable because he goes to the opposition's net, he will score goals but he has little value beyond these niches.

 

On TO he was on the 3rd line, Hymen and Leo Komarov got more icetime than him, he played extremely sheltered minutes and towards the end of last year he rarely received more than 12 minutes in icetime per game.

 

I noticed that some of you were inserting JVR in the top 6 which may be possible if the other 2 linemates are prepared to do all of the grunt work beyond scoring like defending, being creative, being physical or any other such chores.

 

So if Philly's coach(s) have the players to shield JVR from the hum drum going ons of a hockey game then he might prove valuable but a 15 goal scorer with a better head/heart for the game would probably be more useful.

 

Was JVR's results from the last 2 years an aberration or something that can be held as a given constant? The bulk of JVR's offense happens on the PP and his new found productivity coincided with the introduction of Marner onto his PP unit.

 

I give it a year before it becomes painfully obvious that JVR is now going to be overpaid and overtermed.

 

It's clear to see that there is a three year period where JVR struggled..... Now without knowing anything about the Leafs during that period, it seems like they over-relied on JVR. Which, to be fair, is a normal thing to expect for a 2nd overall - it just didn't work out in his case. 

 

Who were his linemates?

 

I see two things happening - too many defensive zone faceoffs, and too much TOI. But the Leafs were also really bad during those years. How much of it is a weak team(mates), and how much of it is just JVR's weaknesses being exposed?

 

 

[hobie]

Thru most of JVR's time with the Leafs he played with Kessel and Bozak, he was even used to PK probably part of the reason TO was so bad.

 

You'll notice that as TO improved JVR's icetime decreased. As his predominately OZ% increased so did his scoring, he's a very productive 3rd liner when he plays sheltered minutes as your charts attest. Is a 3rd liner worthy of 7 mil. per no matter how much they score.

 

Considering how productive JVR has been, he was probably worth his previous contract, 4 mil. per even as a 3rd liner.