Eklund rumor : Flyers in "heavy" pursuit of Karlsson....

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, jammer2 said:

I honesty can't remember how Frolin looked  playing for the Kings.

 

 

He is a solid position sound type stay at home defenseman. He brings a nice physical presence on the backend that to me is welcome.

 

He does everything Gudas does except draw penalties and brings less turnovers. However don't expect anything flashy.

 

He has a very heavy shot from the point that he needs to use more i think.

 

I think he could be a very nice physical partner to pair with Hagg maybe on the bottom pair who could be hard to play against.

 

Plus you can deploy them together on the PK so you don't have to break the pairs up.

 

He is the type of guy though is not going to really standout much but that can be a good thing the unsung type guys who just come in and do the dirty work and doesn't produce all the glamour points stuff.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I think he and Vorobyev will get a hard look in camp/preseason.

 

Misha has a good chance to steal the 3rd role.

 

He has the higher upside than Vex and is the type of playmaker defensive sound forward Hak is going to love.

 

He is also a very underrated scorer that Gordon had raved about the last half of last season saying he had been working on getting the kid to start shooting more and when he listened he started finding the back of the net.

 

I can't wait for next year too start i miss hockey.

 

He may have the higher upside, but Vex has been ready for a year now.  Veobyov will benefit from development time more.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

He is a solid position sound type stay at home defenseman. He brings a nice physical presence on the backend that to me is welcome.

 

He does everything Gudas does except draw penalties and brings less turnovers. However don't expect anything flashy.

 

He has a very heavy shot from the point that he needs to use more i think.

 

I think he could be a very nice physical partner to pair with Hagg maybe on the bottom pair who could be hard to play against.

 

Plus you can deploy them together on the PK so you don't have to break the pairs up.

 

He is the type of guy though is not going to really standout much but that can be a good thing the unsung type guys who just come in and do the dirty work and doesn't produce all the glamour points stuff.

 

Sounds almost exactly like Haag. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

He may have the higher upside, but Vex has been ready for a year now.  Veobyov will benefit from development time more.  

 

Yeah well there is a 5 year age difference there to. 

 

However if Vex can't help this year it could be over for his Flyer career there is just too much talent behind him to waste much time on a 26 year old prospect.

 

So if he doesn't land a spot this year he will be playing on a new team come 2019.

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Sounds almost exactly like Haag. 

 

Yes.

 

It is why I think they could be used as a good physical pair to put out when Hak wants to grind on the other team some.

 

And the best part of he doesn't find a fit or just bombs you just bury him and move on.

 

The perfect 6-7th type of D man to have.

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I think he and Vorobyev will get a hard look in camp/preseason.

 

Misha has a good chance to steal the 3rd role.

 

He has the higher upside than Vex and is the type of playmaker defensive sound forward Hak is going to love.

 

He is also a very underrated scorer that Gordon had raved about the last half of last season saying he had been working on getting the kid to start shooting more and when he listened he started finding the back of the net.

 

I can't wait for next year too start i miss hockey.

I've heard all that and look forward to it. 

 

Did you watch any of the streaming of the development camp 3v3 games?  Voro drove me nuts in the limited time I watched.  He kept forcing things that just weren't there.  I couldn't tell if it was "this is 3v3 scrimmage so I'm just going to try stuff I wouldn't usually" or what.  But some of it was mind bedoggling. 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah well there is a 5 year age difference there to. 

 

However if Vex can't help this year it could be over for his Flyer career there is just too much talent behind him to waste much time on a 26 year old prospect.

 

So if he doesn't land a spot this year he will be playing on a new team come 2019.

 

Thats fine.  They should bring him up to show him off and then trade hIm.  

 

He he should have been up last year.  The 4th and the PK would have been much better with him and Read.  

[Poconono]

On 7/5/2018 at 7:47 PM, ruxpin said:

I'm proud of this board that it's nearly 90% against on this. 

 

@pilldoc or @hf101, i don't see how on my phone, but we should do a poll. 

And I think you're all nuts.  You don't want a Hall of Fame defenseman?  A guy that controls the game every minute he's on the ice?  And mentioning Ghost in the same sentence?  Wow!   Talk about being homers.  No wonder Flyers' management keeps their jobs year after year after year.  You guys buy into everything they tell you.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, Poconono said:

And I think you're all nuts.  You don't want a Hall of Fame defenseman?  A guy that controls the game every minute he's on the ice?  And mentioning Ghost in the same sentence?  Wow!   Talk about being homers.  No wonder Flyers' management keeps their jobs year after year after year.  You guys buy into everything they tell you.

I'm okay with disagreeing. 

[pilldoc]

2 hours ago, Poconono said:

And I think you're all nuts.  You don't want a Hall of Fame defenseman?  A guy that controls the game every minute he's on the ice?  And mentioning Ghost in the same sentence?  Wow!   Talk about being homers.  No wonder Flyers' management keeps their jobs year after year after year.  You guys buy into everything they tell you.

Not a homer by any stretch of the imagination. Just not worth giving up prospects after finally restocking the farm. Karlsson is a nice toy I admit. However his price tag will hurt this team down the road. Also unless EK can play goal, the Flyers are still extremely weak between the pipes.  I agree to disagree on this one. 

Sometimes it is better to think with ones head instead of ones heart or emotions.

 

[mojo1917]

15 hours ago, Poconono said:

And I think you're all nuts.  You don't want a Hall of Fame defenseman?  A guy that controls the game every minute he's on the ice?  And mentioning Ghost in the same sentence?  Wow!   Talk about being homers.  No wonder Flyers' management keeps their jobs year after year after year.  You guys buy into everything they tell you.

I don't think anyone has said Ghost is just as good. People have called him EK lite, which is pretty accurate.  Ghost's metrics compare favorably to Karlsson in a down year.

Ghost is younger and plays with a guy that reminds me of Duncan Keith without the stick penalties. DK in his prime controlled the game the way Karlsson and Doughty do, I think Provorov can be that player too, no need to blow up the roster to have that guy on the team, he' already here.

If it were only money, I would say throw as much as possible to bring Karlsson to Philly. 

That's not the case though. Ottawa is looking to use the trade to kick-start a rebuild, it would require players I don't want to trade going to Ottawa, I don't want to trade Koneckny or Simmonds, I don't want to Trade Provorov, I don't want to trade Meyers or Sanheim. I think those guys are the core group that keeps a championship window open for 6 to 10 years if they pan out.  I'd rather see the results of this program that has taken years to reach this point, the point where these magic beans become stalks. 

Karlsson is nearly 30 and has a robo-ankle. Great as he is I don't think it's worth the cost.

 

[hf101]

16 hours ago, Poconono said:

And I think you're all nuts.  You don't want a Hall of Fame defenseman?  A guy that controls the game every minute he's on the ice?  And mentioning Ghost in the same sentence?  Wow!   Talk about being homers.  No wonder Flyers' management keeps their jobs year after year after year.  You guys buy into everything they tell you.

 

If we didn't have the core of talented young defensemen in the organization I probably would think differently, but how many trades has this organization made which turned out to be not as great as we all desired for the money and younger players and picks that we lost?

 

I'll restate this again as I'm not sold Karlsson is 100% the same player since his ankle injury.  IMO last years numbers are a result of not being 100% and not merely a down year.  Having that doubt increases the risk of making a bad decision as he would likely want a 7-8 year deal for big $$$$$.  Frankly, I'd rather invest that money in Provorov.

[OccamsRazor]

16 hours ago, Poconono said:

And I think you're all nuts

 

Hello pot this is kettle......

 

[JR Ewing]

If you don't at least kick the tires on Karlsson, as a GM, you're probably not doing your job. However... There is still the matter of thje biggest inefficiency in the NHL.

 

1) Players get paid for points
2) Many players who get points contribute to their teams getting outscored despite their point totals

Finding the players who help the goal share while not getting enough points to move the salary dial is the golden ticket when filling out the roster.

 

I think Karlsson is great, but like most other players who score a lot, I'm not sure where he resides in that point I make above. He will command an absolute boatload of cap space, and for all of that the Sens get about same GF% when he's on ice compared to when he's off. You can't be wrong about players who cost this much. Yeah, yeah, you're an Oilers fan, JR, but... Let's compare him to McDavid (since he's the highest paid player in the league):

 

I took every teammate who played 60 minutes with both Karlsson and McDavid, and compared how their GF% fared with and without the two players in 2018.

 

Karlsson, 22 teammates.

Better GF% with - 8 (best combo was Zack Smith, at +10.34%)

Worse GF% with - 14 (worst match was Nate Thompson, at -20%)

Average GF% difference with/without: -5.9%

 

McDavid, 22 teammates.

Better GF% with - 21 (best combo was Darnell Nurse, at +25%.)

Worse GF% with - 1 (only combo, Maroon, at  -1.9%)

Average GF difference with/without: +19%)

 

Honestly, I was a bit shocked that more of Karlsson's teammates didn't do better while they were with him compared to when they weren't. At this stage of his career, with that ankle, I think Karlsson represents extreme risk. It could work for whichever team does it, but for that kind of cap hit, I want to outscore the opposition with regularity and uniformity.

 

As it pertains specifically to the Flyers: when you have a core of very good young defensemen, adding a player like Karlsson can throw a lot out of alignment, in good ways and in some ways which aren't as helpful. The Senators (rightfully) want a haul, and the combination of acquisition cost and cap cost are very high, and often, the best trade is the one you didn't make. If I were Ron Hextall, I wouldn't do it.

 

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

If I were Ron Hextall, I wouldn't do it.

 

I agree with all you said.

 

And if they were a EK away from a serious run for the Cup i would be inclined to say f**k it go for it.

 

But they are not, they are just looking to jump the next rung on the ladder which is to make the playoffs and at least get to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

And with the goalies they have combined with a lot of youth in several spots that at the time is a huge task in itself.

 

So no just hard pass on EK.

[King Knut]

On 7/21/2018 at 10:24 AM, OccamsRazor said:

 

I agree with all you said.

 

And if they were a EK away from a serious run for the Cup i would be inclined to say f**k it go for it.

 

But they are not, they are just looking to jump the next rung on the ladder which is to make the playoffs and at least get to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

And with the goalies they have combined with a lot of youth in several spots that at the time is a huge task in itself.

 

So no just hard pass on EK.

 

Any team that can make the playoffs without him is an Erik Karlsson away from competing for a cup.

The Flyers are a goalie away from being quite good. 

 

A goalie and Karlsson would make them favorites.  

 

I say all this with the acknowledgement that I don't really think they should bother getting him.  But he is that good and the Flyers are about that close IMHO.  

 

[OccamsRazor]

35 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Any team that can make the playoffs without him is an Erik Karlsson away from competing for a cup.

The Flyers are a goalie away from being quite good. 

 

A goalie and Karlsson would make them favorites.  

 

I say all this with the acknowledgement that I don't really think they should bother getting him.  But he is that good and the Flyers are about that close IMHO.  

 

 

I think they are a goalie away from getting pass the 2nd round.

 

I think they can get a playoff series win with their current group, and that is with a lot of improvement with special teams and some luck.

 

But it think that is far as this current group can go without a serious upgrade in net.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I think they are a goalie away from getting pass the 2nd round.

 

I think they can get a playoff series win with their current group, and that is with a lot of improvement with special teams and some luck.

 

But it think that is far as this current group can go without a serious upgrade in net.

 

Agreed,  I also consider making the ECFs competing.  

 

I think the necessary upgrade in net is now in the system.  Whether it’s Hart or someone else I don’t know but there are. Uneriusnoptions looking quite good. Time will tell.  But what I’m xcjt d about is that whoever it is, instead of coming up into a crap team with a line and a half and numerous gaping holes, he will be coming up into very fleshed our team with no R for Lemelin in sight.  This tends to help acceptably decent goalies become good ones.  And this team needs a good goalie. They won’t need a goalie to steal them 16 playoff wins.  Maybe just 6 or 7

 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

They won’t need a goalie to steal them 16 playoff wins.

 

 

Right now......i will be just happy with a guy who stops the ones he is suppose too....

 

#babysteps

[King Knut]

11 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Right now......i will be just happy with a guy who stops the ones he is suppose too....

 

#babysteps

 

I only wish it were that easy.  

We need a guy who can stop the ones he should, AND put the rebounds where his D can get tot them first. 

Next we need a D that doesn’t play so far out of position that the shots he should save become unsavable. 

 

That makes it sound bad.  

 

So... maybe a goalie and a coach away?

 

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

AND put the rebounds where his D can get tot them first.

 

I would just prefer to reduce the amount of rebounds...directing them where you want them is something even the great ones struggle with.

 

So eliminating them would be welcome.

[King Knut]

15 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I would just prefer to reduce the amount of rebounds...directing them where you want them is something even the great ones struggle with.

 

So eliminating them would be welcome.

 

I think the carbon fiber sticks make both of the above more difficult than it used to be.  

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I think the carbon fiber sticks make both of the above more difficult than it used to be. 

 

 

I don't think the stick have anything to do with the fundamental aspects it takes to control the rebounds being square to the shooter and learning to absorb the shot correctly.

 

A lot of that comes down to smarts, knowing the angles and most importantly speed to get ready for the shots....something Holby lost how to do when he lost the net to Grubauer briefly...but regain his from and improved on greatly in the Caps cup run.

 

Speed unfortunately is one thing that Elliott has lost some of and will continue to lose. But maybe it comes more down to mechanics he can work on to get better in that area...can't say for sure i am no goaltender or coach.

 

Just i see other do it so i would expect he can learn too.

 

Maybe i am wrong.

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I don't think the stick have anything to do with the fundamental aspects it takes to control the rebounds being square to the shooter and learning to absorb the shot correctly.

 

A lot of that comes down to smarts, knowing the angles and most importantly speed to get ready for the shots....something Holby lost how to do when he lost the net to Grubauer briefly...but regain his from and improved on greatly in the Caps cup run.

 

Speed unfortunately is one thing that Elliott has lost some of and will continue to lose. But maybe it comes more down to mechanics he can work on to get better in that area...can't say for sure i am no goaltender or coach.

 

Just i see other do it so i would expect he can learn too.

 

Maybe i am wrong.

 

I think the shots are quicker and more accurate which means the goalie is slower to get to where the save needs to happen, which makes controlling the rebound or eliminating it harder to do.  

 

It's the same reason being a flopper goalie makes controlling a rebound nearly impossible.  You have to work harder and are a few milliseconds late to get to where the shot is going and are usually just barely getting there which changes the trajectory of the rebound instead of being able to absorb it, you're merely deflecting it.  

 

It does come down to speed and to catch up with today's shots, you have to be faster than you did before the new sticks.   It's the difference between hitting a 90 mph fastball and a 95mph slider that the pitcher can conceal the release on for a bit longer. 

 

 

[King Knut]

30 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Speed unfortunately is one thing that Elliott has lost some of and will continue to lose. But maybe it comes more down to mechanics he can work on to get better in that area...can't say for sure i am no goaltender or coach.

 

Just i see other do it so i would expect he can learn too.

 

Maybe i am wrong.

 

 

Elliott's a strange case to me.  He's not stable in his net, he can't control rebounds to save his life, but somehow it doesn't create the kind of havoc in his own end I would have expected.  Somehow the pucks while not going to his guys and not being smothered, aren't going to the opposition either... well until the playoffs, but if we're fair, we all know he was not remotely ready to play.

 

I don't understand how it works as well as it does, but i'm not the only person I've heard confused by this about him.