CreaseAndAssist Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Bench them? You do understand how the salary cap works right? Reduce their ice time; sure. Zero problem with that. Take away the "A's" and the "C" which MAY make them angry...but as long as they're healthy, they're likely going to be playing. No matter how much they annoy us all, that isn't going to change. It is why so many of us were infuriated when we learned they gave Koivu a no movement clause. I am not sure I'd say Foligno stepped up in the playoffs and Winnik? For what, the fact he fought at the end of a game? Did that matter at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomdog Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 9 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said: Bench them? You do understand how the salary cap works right? Reduce their ice time; sure. Zero problem with that. Take away the "A's" and the "C" which MAY make them angry...but as long as they're healthy, they're likely going to be playing. No matter how much they annoy us all, that isn't going to change. It is why so many of us were infuriated when we learned they gave Koivu a no movement clause. I am not sure I'd say Foligno stepped up in the playoffs and Winnik? For what, the fact he fought at the end of a game? Did that matter at all? Lig, Rotty is right on with this take. If you don't give the effort you don't play. That's the rule with the young guys, should be the rule with the old as well. I don't know how you missed, or forgot the quality play of our lower lines in the playoffs, they were the ones that gave us hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 One thing you need to be careful with having that iron fist mentality with these players is that there is a fair bit of psychology involved. Different players respond to different treatments. They are human, after all. Some players will step up their game, others will go into a shell. Sure, you may scream and holler at them in the locker room, but there are certain players you don't call out in the press because their mental make up will cause them to lose confidence instead of lighting a fire under them. Same with benching them, or scratching them. Yes, it is a way to send a message. But certain players may take it personally and dwell on it for days while others will just laugh it off and say "Ok coach, I got the message" and go out and play hard. And other players see how current players are treated by the club. That could have a big effect on future trades or free agent signings. Clubs that treat their players poorly won't get the big FA signings, or will have trouble hanging onto their own FA's, simply because the player wants out because of the way he was treated. They might even be included on "No Trade" lists for players that have modified No Trade Clauses. I'm not saying treat these guys with kid gloves. But they are human and you have to know how each player will respond to criticism, in order to get the maximum out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, IllaZilla said: One thing you need to be careful with having that iron fist mentality with these players is that there is a fair bit of psychology involved. Different players respond to different treatments. They are human, after all. Some players will step up their game, others will go into a shell. Sure, you may scream and holler at them in the locker room, but there are certain players you don't call out in the press because their mental make up will cause them to lose confidence instead of lighting a fire under them. Same with benching them, or scratching them. Yes, it is a way to send a message. But certain players may take it personally and dwell on it for days while others will just laugh it off and say "Ok coach, I got the message" and go out and play hard. And other players see how current players are treated by the club. That could have a big effect on future trades or free agent signings. Clubs that treat their players poorly won't get the big FA signings, or will have trouble hanging onto their own FA's, simply because the player wants out because of the way he was treated. They might even be included on "No Trade" lists for players that have modified No Trade Clauses. I'm not saying treat these guys with kid gloves. But they are human and you have to know how each player will respond to criticism, in order to get the maximum out of them. From a more basic standpoint. 3 guys making far more than the coach will talk to the owner and this dictator of a coach would probably be $chitcanned pretty fast. Ice time and opportunity are the easiest places to manipulate. Now, are the ice time decisions dictated by the coach or can that be changed by the players meeting with the owner too? So if Suter doesn't get top power play time; even though he's going to probably be pretty weak upon his return, he complain to ownership? I'd say its likely given his history. Same if Parise just sits on the bench during the power play or 3-on-3 because otherwise why keep sending them out there in those situations? I also agree players pay attention to how they perceive treatment by other teams. I don't think your going to see too many tyrant NHL coaches anymore. Tortorella may be the last one and his shelf life has been shorter and shorter ever since he left Tampa Bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, CreaseAndAssist said: From a more basic standpoint. 3 guys making far more than the coach will talk to the owner and this dictator of a coach would probably be $chitcanned pretty fast. Ice time and opportunity are the easiest places to manipulate. Now, are the ice time decisions dictated by the coach or can that be changed by the players meeting with the owner too? So if Suter doesn't get top power play time; even though he's going to probably be pretty weak upon his return, he complain to ownership? I'd say its likely given his history. Same if Parise just sits on the bench during the power play or 3-on-3 because otherwise why keep sending them out there in those situations? I also agree players pay attention to how they perceive treatment by other teams. I don't think your going to see too many tyrant NHL coaches anymore. Tortorella may be the last one and his shelf life has been shorter and shorter ever since he left Tampa Bay. And that’s just it. Like everyone says “You can’t fire the team, so you fire the coach.” As unhappy as we are with The Three Stooges, they’re not going anywhere. The only way Koivu moves to 3C is if EEK suddenly discovers a scoring touch and becomes the team lead scorer. And if Koivus FO% continues to plummet. But it’s probably going to take both those occurrences. Parise will always get top six time. Even if there are players out performing him. The Wild will use the excuse that they want to spread the scoring around to different lines. So they’ll move an effective player from line 1 or 2 to insert Parise to keep him happy for the dozen or so games he’s on the ice and not in the trainers room. And Suter is a law unto himself. Where else could a player dictate his ice time, line mates, and PP time? Why bother hiring Boudreau? Suter is just going to do what he wants anyway. Make Suter the player/coach. He seems to fit the Wild mold of being the smartest guy in the room... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, IllaZilla said: And that’s just it. Like everyone says “You can’t fire the team, so you fire the coach.” As unhappy as we are with The Three Stooges, they’re not going anywhere. The only way Koivu moves to 3C is if EEK suddenly discovers a scoring touch and becomes the team lead scorer. And if Koivus FO% continues to plummet. But it’s probably going to take both those occurrences. Parise will always get top six time. Even if there are players out performing him. The Wild will use the excuse that they want to spread the scoring around to different lines. So they’ll move an effective player from line 1 or 2 to insert Parise to keep him happy for the dozen or so games he’s on the ice and not in the trainers room. And Suter is a law unto himself. Where else could a player dictate his ice time, line mates, and PP time? Why bother hiring Boudreau? Suter is just going to do what he wants anyway. Make Suter the player/coach. He seems to fit the Wild mold of being the smartest guy in the room... Unfortunately I can't argue against any these examples, this is probably what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomdog Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 EEK will have a hard time outscoring koivu because he will never see pp time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I found it interesting in Russo's mailbag that there was the suggestion that Boudreau wanted to see Eriksson-Ek duke it out with Koivu for the 2C slot and move Koivu to the 3C in a checking role... The only way Eriksson-Ek gets the 2C role is when Staal leaves and Mikko reclaims the 1C slot, either this March at the trade deadline if the Wild are out of the Playoffs and they trade Staal, or next season when, Staal leaves as a UFA... No one puts Mikko in the corner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 27 minutes ago, Tomdog said: EEK will have a hard time outscoring koivu because he will never see pp time I agree and IMO, just like Zucker / Nino...they don't get the power play ice time they deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Tomdog said: EEK will have a hard time outscoring koivu because he will never see pp time A few people here who think their word is gospel haven't figured that out yet, but it's been that way since before Parise and Suter were added to the roster. I said about 7 years ago when I noticed if any young player out-shines Koivu they lose ice time and either get sent back to Iowa, see fourth line duty or get the press box. Fontaine was a perfect example of gaining some ground, showing some promise... Showing a lot more effort, scoring a few times within a few games and presto: They put him in the press box after losing 3rd line time from filling in for someone, then sent to the fourth line and thrown under the bus for not continuing his mini hot streak (with lessor-than players.) Several handfuls of players have gone through that ridiculous circus and it's all been notably documented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Huh? Where is this groupthink conspiracy you keep referencing. Most people here have been annoyed by the way the team has danced / placated the egos of #9, #20 and #11 in that order. So you think the Wild railroaded Justin Fontaine? Did we railroad Chris Stewart too? Similar situations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 hour ago, rottenrefs said: A few people here who think their word is gospel haven't figured that out yet, but it's been that way since before Parise and Suter were added to the roster. I said about 7 years ago when I noticed if any young player out-shines Koivu they lose ice time and either get sent back to Iowa, see fourth line duty or get the press box. Fontaine was a perfect example of gaining some ground, showing some promise... Showing a lot more effort, scoring a few times within a few games and presto: They put him in the press box after losing 3rd line time from filling in for someone, then sent to the fourth line and thrown under the bus for not continuing his mini hot streak (with lessor-than players.) Several handfuls of players have gone through that ridiculous circus and it's all been notably documented. So what NHL team is benefitting from Justin Fontaine's skills now after the Wild were dumb enough to release him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 12:39 PM, IllaZilla said: There is a big difference between his Buffalo numbers and his Minnesota numbers: Season Team Games TOI Hits Shifts/Gm Hits/Gm Time/Shift 2016 - 17 BUF 80 15:28 279 19.9 3.5 0:46 2017 - 18 MIN 77 10:52 185 14.7 2.4 0:44 The Wild utilized him far less than Buffalo did. Could be a culture issue. Especially considering all the time that was available due to Coyle, Niederreitter, and Parise being out...not that he was ever going to be on the #1 or #2 lines. But still, that's quite a drop from the previous year... The key was the ice time he was given by the Wild. His hits per shift was virtually the same both years .57 with Buffalo in 2016-17, .61 with the Wild in 2017-18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, sweetshot said: The key was the ice time he was given by the Wild. His hits per shift was virtually the same both years .57 with Buffalo in 2016-17, .61 with the Wild in 2017-18. Again, this goes back to the "If you're going to acquire a tough guy to give the team a spine, what good is it if you don't play him?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomdog Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 13 hours ago, IllaZilla said: One thing you need to be careful with having that iron fist mentality with these players is that there is a fair bit of psychology involved. Different players respond to different treatments. They are human, after all. Some players will step up their game, others will go into a shell. Sure, you may scream and holler at them in the locker room, but there are certain players you don't call out in the press because their mental make up will cause them to lose confidence instead of lighting a fire under them. Same with benching them, or scratching them. Yes, it is a way to send a message. But certain players may take it personally and dwell on it for days while others will just laugh it off and say "Ok coach, I got the message" and go out and play hard. And other players see how current players are treated by the club. That could have a big effect on future trades or free agent signings. Clubs that treat their players poorly won't get the big FA signings, or will have trouble hanging onto their own FA's, simply because the player wants out because of the way he was treated. They might even be included on "No Trade" lists for players that have modified No Trade Clauses. I'm not saying treat these guys with kid gloves. But they are human and you have to know how each player will respond to criticism, in order to get the maximum out of them. Yes you can't just iron fist them all Mike Keenan, but you can send the message. And if a players temperment is that soft they probably aren't cut out for the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 This was on Twitter today from @MNWild "I discipline when it's needed to be but I think the way you get through to anybody — especially today's young people — is through communication." — Bruce Boudreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 39 minutes ago, IllaZilla said: So what NHL team is benefitting from Justin Fontaine's skills now after the Wild were dumb enough to release him? He was a SUPER cheap player who unlike friends of friends of Wild players who played exactly the way all fringe players are supposed to play. Unlike the multi million dollar bastards you were drunk on when they were here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, rottenrefs said: He was a SUPER cheap player who unlike friends of friends of Wild players who played exactly the way all fringe players are supposed to play. Unlike the multi million dollar bastards you were drunk on when they were here. Again, if the Wild made a mistake letting him go, what NHL team benefitted from signing him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 You guys are totally missing the point. I'm not surprised. - Psychological aspects of the Wild: 1. The owner owns the team. 2. He hires a GM to run the team. 3. They select a head coach to coach the players. Nowhere in there does it say the players are supposed to manage the team. Who gave them that role? Who entitled the players to dictate what goes on on the ice????????????????????? Who entitled them by allowing them input for other players and succumbing to their wishes or demands?????????? Psychologically if I'm an NHL owner and the inmates start running the asylum then who is to blame? Who needs to fix the whole thing to stop the bleeding? The players? Letting their contracts dictate how long the circus can keep performing by making me (as owner - or the GM) look like idiots? I have a nephew who since he was three years old, could say yes or no to what he wanted to eat. He's 16 now and still refuses to eat a decent meal because he gets his choice. What the hell is wrong with that picture? The same thing that's wrong with the Wild is wrong with that picture. Parents, like the team owners or GM's, step aside to let the kids run the business? Are you sh!tting me? You guys giving in to their 'contract' woes and how they'll react and respond are also what's in the water. All I'm doing is pointing out you can't plug in square pegs in round holes... Those square pegs have a place and a purpose just like the round pegs and round holes do. Managers manage. Players play, coaches coach. - This team has had a dozen players just like Fontaine. There is absolutely nothing super special about him talent-wise but the guy had heart. He tried. He tried harder than those with a sh!tload of talent ever did. All I'm saying is if all the Wild players tried as hard as he did in each game, all those big buck guys... The team would be onto something; but it isn't happening and never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 3 hours ago, IllaZilla said: Again, this goes back to the "If you're going to acquire a tough guy to give the team a spine, what good is it if you don't play him?" Exactly. IMO one of the most critical things CL needs to accomplish right now is to make sure that he, PF and BB are all on the same page. This includes the players as well. I don't think that was the case when CF was here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 6:09 PM, IllaZilla said: Nice. Some tough guy. Gets his clock cleaned by a preppie... Even Bob Probert got his ass handed to him--not too many times, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 The whole world is such a fragile place. Grown adult hockey players having psychological issues after reeling in millions and millions of dollars each year screwing over a team if they don't get their way. Maybe the team can provide them coloring books and crayons on flights so they can cope better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 hours ago, rottenrefs said: The whole world is such a fragile place. Grown adult hockey players having psychological issues after reeling in millions and millions of dollars each year screwing over a team if they don't get their way. Maybe the team can provide them coloring books and crayons on flights so they can cope better? PB and J with no crust too, please! 12 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said: This was on Twitter today from @MNWild "I discipline when it's needed to be but I think the way you get through to anybody — especially today's young people — is through communication." — Bruce Boudreau Hey Bruce! Discipline is a means of communication. Sometimes in order to get through to today's(or yesterdays) young people you've got to get out your can of whoop-ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 11 hours ago, IllaZilla said: Again, if the Wild made a mistake letting him go, what NHL team benefitted from signing him? I am with IllaZilla on this one. If Fontaine was the asset Rotten insists he was, why isn't he in the league anymore? He signed somewhere in Europe this summer; so I guess 31 NHL teams are all stupid and just holding him back right? But somehow, we're missing the point...riiight. Rotty...letting us all know we're wrong. Tell us more about these TPS Reports aka the Fleecing of Justin Fontaine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 22 minutes ago, sweetshot said: PB and J with no crust too, please! Hey Bruce! Discipline is a means of communication. Sometimes in order to get through to today's(or yesterdays) young people you've got to get out your can of whoop-ass! So what do you suggest? Just endlessly bag skate the team until they get the message...bench almost the whole team other than 6 players to send a message? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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