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brelic

Maximizing your last paycheque

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@elmatus

your post is exhibit a that pro sports is indeed a business. 

it is a good post and makes perfect sense.

It also sucks that a fan favorite who has done a team solid can't get rewarded for doing the solid.

all the things are true, and that bums me out.

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That is my thought. We will need a guy to stand up for other guys on our team. 

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5 minutes ago, Jam1986 said:

That is my thought. We will need a guy to stand up for other guys on our team. 

 

There won't be an enforcer brought to the team.

 

They have guys who will fight. Simmer, Radko and Folin will drop the gloves.

 

And if they needed a guy like that they could recall Goulbourne. Goon hockey is dead.

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22 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

@elmatus

your post is exhibit a that pro sports is indeed a business. 

it is a good post and makes perfect sense.

It also sucks that a fan favorite who has done a team solid can't get rewarded for doing the solid.

all the things are true, and that bums me out.

 

You know, I was just listening to the BSH radio podcast and Steph Driver made a very good point about all this and it may have changed my opinion 180 degrees.  

 

Her point was that this is the Flyers.  Wayne Simmonds can take the home town discount on a contract to keep him with the organization for the remainder of his career and make significantly less than if he were to test the open market... but it's the Flyers and if he takes that hometown discount now, he's going to know that there will be a place for him in this organization in the front office, as a scout, as a terrible penalty kill coach, WHATEVER and that place will be there for the rest of his natural life.  

 

What's that kind of money worth?  I'm not sure what those guys make, but it could actually just come down to whether Wayne wants to simply retire at 38 and do literally nothing for the rest of his natural life or if likes Philly enough to be a part of things here... FOREVER.  

 

With that in mind, I'm actually okay with him taking the hometown discount.  

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What I meant for Simmer to take a two year deal at 7+ mill. Then after that Hexy can discuss signing him on for longer at a home team discount of 5 years at a reasonable cap. So that way Simmer gets "Paid" for two years what he's worth then the next contract could be in the 5+ mill or lower depending how he's holding up and if any decline in goals or points. Nobody really wants him on a long contract for fear of injury or degradation in performance. But he deserves a nice paycheck and at 2 years if that would mean both sides can come to an agreement on the amount he deserves for two years that would be a win. After the two years resign him as a Flyer who took a home team discount to finish his career here in Philly.

Two things:

1. That gives him his payday.

2. He can resign for an extended home team contract with both parties not having to sigh on the final years of remainder contract length.

The second signing contract after his two year "paid" contract could be anywhere from 3+ to 5 mill a year for 5 more years at a reasonable cap hit.

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6 hours ago, LegionOfDoom said:

What I meant for Simmer to take a two year deal at 7+ mill. Then after that Hexy can discuss signing him on for longer at a home team discount of 5 years at a reasonable cap. So that way Simmer gets "Paid" for two years what he's worth then the next contract could be in the 5+ mill or lower depending how he's holding up and if any decline in goals or points. Nobody really wants him on a long contract for fear of injury or degradation in performance. But he deserves a nice paycheck and at 2 years if that would mean both sides can come to an agreement on the amount he deserves for two years that would be a win. After the two years resign him as a Flyer who took a home team discount to finish his career here in Philly.

Two things:

1. That gives him his payday.

2. He can resign for an extended home team contract with both parties not having to sigh on the final years of remainder contract length.

The second signing contract after his two year "paid" contract could be anywhere from 3+ to 5 mill a year for 5 more years at a reasonable cap hit.

 

I get what you're saying but no way Simmer takes a two year deal....no way Hextall insults him like that.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, LegionOfDoom said:

What I meant for Simmer to take a two year deal at 7+ mill. Then after that Hexy can discuss signing him on for longer at a home team discount of 5 years at a reasonable cap. So that way Simmer gets "Paid" for two years what he's worth then the next contract could be in the 5+ mill or lower depending how he's holding up and if any decline in goals or points. Nobody really wants him on a long contract for fear of injury or degradation in performance. But he deserves a nice paycheck and at 2 years if that would mean both sides can come to an agreement on the amount he deserves for two years that would be a win. After the two years resign him as a Flyer who took a home team discount to finish his career here in Philly.

Two things:

1. That gives him his payday.

2. He can resign for an extended home team contract with both parties not having to sigh on the final years of remainder contract length.

The second signing contract after his two year "paid" contract could be anywhere from 3+ to 5 mill a year for 5 more years at a reasonable cap hit.

 

It's a reasonable proposition. The problem is the NHL is hardly reasonable when it comes to big contracts for 30 year old players like Simmonds. He's exactly the kind of guy a contending team picks up and pays too much for too long. Most players who have his level of success look for that last big contract as they enter the twilight of their career. There's a solid chance he will want to do the same. If not, then all the better for the team. He fits in perfectly with a team on the cusp of contention, which is exactly what I think this team is right now. Find us a goalie (and maybe a coach...), and we'll make some noise.

 

The short of it is Simmonds holds all the cards right now. He can choose to stay in PHI if he wants, or he can leave and get paid more money elsewhere. It's pretty much that simple. We'll just have to wait and see which road he takes.

 

As others have mentioned, I have a hard time thinking they'll trade him at the deadline. For that to happen, the Flyers would need to have a disastrous season, which seems pretty unlikely given the roster we have. Sure, they have to score 3-4 goals per game and suppress 95% of all shots against to compensate for the Elliott Effect, but they're actually pretty good at doing both of those things.

 

I can't see Hex trading Simmonds at the deadline if we're playoff bound. It'll either be early or even pre-season, or not at all I think.

Edited by elmatus
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Unless the Flyers where to be snakes, I don't see how two entities that have worked together and built trust in years, can see any wrong in an open honest dialogue about the organizational needs and the players personal needs.

 

- Organizational needs:

We need to field a team for the next 5 years to win a cup. We have to manage a cap for future assets in this five year process. We can spend extra money in the next two years, but after that we will be under some constraints in the next four or five years and will be up against the wall financially and asset-wise.

 

- Simmers needs:

I need to be paid for my hard work.

If you can give me top dollars as a show of gratitude for a few years(two or three) would be reasonable, then sign me for a fair, reasonable extension for 5 more years and possible retirement and work for the organization after to ensure I have income coming in for my later years, this would give me security for me and my family.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

I really see this as a win-win situation for both entities involved.

I mean why can't both parties come to the table and state their view on needs and try to make it work, if need be as creative as possible to hit the numbers they're looking for.

What real restrictions are really holding back this from getting done.

 

I mean Simmer isn't going to flake out on the team. He gives 120% in his tenure with the Flyers. They should pay him big for two-three years, then a reasonable pay amount for another five years on a separate deal.

 In a way front loading for the first few years and cutting it off then. So on the second contract that money won't be tied into the cap hit for the new contract of five years at a reasonable amount.

 

Is it possible to do a two year @ 7.5 even add a signing bonus of 500k per year or so, so Simmer gets big money.

Then give out a five year incentive laden contract that if he hits the numbers outline he can be bumped up per year to year if he reaches those numbers during the second contract.

I would think this is reasonable and a win-win way of solving two problems.

 

But I mean if greed, sex and magic is what your after,....then.....ya....screw-it!

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On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:11 PM, LegionOfDoom said:

Unless the Flyers where to be snakes, I don't see how two entities that have worked together and built trust in years, can see any wrong in an open honest dialogue about the organizational needs and the players personal needs.

 

- Organizational needs:

We need to field a team for the next 5 years to win a cup. We have to manage a cap for future assets in this five year process. We can spend extra money in the next two years, but after that we will be under some constraints in the next four or five years and will be up against the wall financially and asset-wise.

 

- Simmers needs:

I need to be paid for my hard work.

If you can give me top dollars as a show of gratitude for a few years(two or three) would be reasonable, then sign me for a fair, reasonable extension for 5 more years and possible retirement and work for the organization after to ensure I have income coming in for my later years, this would give me security for me and my family.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

I really see this as a win-win situation for both entities involved.

I mean why can't both parties come to the table and state their view on needs and try to make it work, if need be as creative as possible to hit the numbers they're looking for.

What real restrictions are really holding back this from getting done.

 

I mean Simmer isn't going to flake out on the team. He gives 120% in his tenure with the Flyers. They should pay him big for two-three years, then a reasonable pay amount for another five years on a separate deal.

 In a way front loading for the first few years and cutting it off then. So on the second contract that money won't be tied into the cap hit for the new contract of five years at a reasonable amount.

 

Is it possible to do a two year @ 7.5 even add a signing bonus of 500k per year or so, so Simmer gets big money.

Then give out a five year incentive laden contract that if he hits the numbers outline he can be bumped up per year to year if he reaches those numbers during the second contract.

I would think this is reasonable and a win-win way of solving two problems.

 

But I mean if greed, sex and magic is what your after,....then.....ya....screw-it!

Eventhough that type of deal would be great for the Flyers I don't see Simmonds doing it. I think Hextall has to deal with resigning Provorov, Koencny and Sanheim first before resigning Simmonds. As much as I would like to see Simmonds resign with the Flyers I think Hextall has to have a number for the cap hit and number of years he'd be willing to resign Simmonds to and if that isn't reached then move on. And whether the Flyers are in the playoff hunt or not, if Simmonds isn't resigned before the trading deadline then I look to deal him. The Flyers aren't going to win anything with Elliot/Neuvrith combo in net.

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How about 5 years at $7 million each and use your compliance buyout at the next lockout and everyone's happy? 

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

How about 5 years at $7 million each and use your compliance buyout at the next lockout and everyone's happy? 

 

4 years 28 mill is my final offer.

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On 8/7/2018 at 9:38 PM, OccamsRazor said:

 

4 years 28 mill is my final offer.

 

I think they will entertain insane offers, but most likely they will try to Sign Mark Stone as UFA in the summer and let SImmer get what he's going to doing the same thing.

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1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I think they will entertain insane offers, but most likely they will try to Sign Mark Stone as UFA in the summer and let SImmer get what he's going to doing the same thing.

 

I don't think they'll chase Stone as a UFA, at least not seriously. With Voracek, Giroux, JVR, and likely soon Provorov and Konecny signed for the next several years at relatively high cap hits, I don't know that they can afford to go after Stone at a 7+ million dollar cap hit for another right wing. 

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1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

I don't think they'll chase Stone as a UFA, at least not seriously. With Voracek, Giroux, JVR, and likely soon Provorov and Konecny signed for the next several years at relatively high cap hits, I don't know that they can afford to go after Stone at a 7+ million dollar cap hit for another right wing. 

 

They be morons not to at least kick the tires like they did with Tavares.  However, like with Tavares though, I'm sure the larger problem will be Stone not wanting to come to a team where he can't be guaranteed top line minutes.  

 

I love Simmer, but the long story short is that I'd rather pay a 27 year old Stone 7 million for far too long than a 31 year old Simmonds.  

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2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

They be morons not to at least kick the tires like they did with Tavares.  However, like with Tavares though, I'm sure the larger problem will be Stone not wanting to come to a team where he can't be guaranteed top line minutes.  

 

I love Simmer, but the long story short is that I'd rather pay a 27 year old Stone 7 million for far too long than a 31 year old Simmonds.  

 

That's why I said not seriously. They'll contact his agent, find out what he wants, figure out they can't afford it, and move on.

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16 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

That's why I said not seriously. They'll contact his agent, find out what he wants, figure out they can't afford it, and move on.

 

That’s the thing.  They will be able to afford it.  I expect It will have more to do with his role.  

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17 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

That’s the thing.  They will be able to afford it.  I expect It will have more to do with his role.  

 

Not to mention he may have a down year on a terrible team. That will hurt his market value a bit. 

 

Honestly, the team is at the point where you can't keep all the young guys. Some will have to be traded for guys that might be further along or are clear upgrades. Or it could be vets, in a case like this where Stone would be a top 6 guy. 

 

Might make sense to swap Voracek for Stone, who is 3 years younger and is a right-handed RW unlike Voracek playing on his off-wing.

 

I would like Voracek a lot more if he were just a bit less careless with the grenade, uh, I mean puck. 

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@OccamsRazor

posted this in the shoutbox

OccamsRazor12 Aug 2:16 PM

Per Eklund- Talking to a source this morning who confirmed my long held belief that UNLESS the Flyers are "many points out of the playoff race" the Flyers will be keeping Wayne Simmonds and trying to keep him long-term. They are NOT afraid of losing him for nothing at the end of the season..
 
I think the last sentence is interesting.  From a team-building standpoint, you wouldn't want to get "nothing" for him.  Does that sentence mean the team is mostly built ? 
 
I know it's Eklund, however that damn blog has been around for a long time.  Occasionally he does have a scoop and isn't always pedaling BS.
 
Anyway; with all those who think trading Simmonds mid-season would be disastrous, I agree, especially if the team is contending for the tournament.  
 
 

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49 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Not to mention he may have a down year on a terrible team. That will hurt his market value a bit. 

 

Honestly, the team is at the point where you can't keep all the young guys. Some will have to be traded for guys that might be further along or are clear upgrades. Or it could be vets, in a case like this where Stone would be a top 6 guy. 

 

Might make sense to swap Voracek for Stone, who is 3 years younger and is a right-handed RW unlike Voracek playing on his off-wing.

 

I would like Voracek a lot more if he were just a bit less careless with the grenade, uh, I mean puck. 

 

Mom not interested in trading Konecny or Patrick who are the only top 6 guys i’d Consider young.  I kinda want to keep Lindblom too because I think he’s going to be a more talented Raffl type who plays bottom 6 but can move up if needed.  That said, if trading him gets you Stone, you do it and don’t look back. 

 

But it I don’t want to trade for Stone unless they’ll take AMac or Gudas or Lehtera or Weise.  I don’t want to give up assets for a guy who might not resign here (hello adam Oates?) I would love to sign him in July though. 

 

I’d totally trade Jake in a “Sign and trade” a’la Pronger.  But I’d prefer not to do that during the season unless the team sucks for some reason.

 

Thats a caveat for everything.  If the team isn’t in playoff contention at the deadline, Jake & Simmer both OUGHT to be moved and th team should go all in on karlsson and stone types. 

 

Re: Konex and Patrick, I think we’re just scratching the surface of what these kids are capable of.  The difference between 1st and 2nd half for José two was ridiculous. For Pat it was health and getting up to speed (which makes it wmeasier to stay healthy) for Teeks it was getting off ththe Filppula / Weal disaster line. 

 

Someday in the not too distant future, Lindblom/Patrick/Konecny might be a truly amazing thing to see but for now, I desperately want to see Jake carrying the puck and fishing to Patrick who sets up JVR for some silky smooth tick tak toe goals and G/Coots/Teeks can just keep doing what hey did all spring which was elite level stuff. 

 

The thought of those two top lines inevitably always playing with either Ghost, Provo, Sanheim, Myers or hopefully Morin begins them makes me feel (to quote Jared on Silicon Valley) like Mary Magdalen on resurrection day.  

 

Switch in Stone and that just lingers for longer.  

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48 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@OccamsRazor

posted this in the shoutbox

OccamsRazor12 Aug 2:16 PM

Per Eklund- Talking to a source this morning who confirmed my long held belief that UNLESS the Flyers are "many points out of the playoff race" the Flyers will be keeping Wayne Simmonds and trying to keep him long-term. They are NOT afraid of losing him for nothing at the end of the season..
 
I think the last sentence is interesting.  From a team-building standpoint, you wouldn't want to get "nothing" for him.  Does that sentence mean the team is mostly built ? 
 
I know it's Eklund, however that damn blog has been around for a long time.  Occasionally he does have a scoop and isn't always pedaling BS.
 
Anyway; with all those who think trading Simmonds mid-season would be disastrous, I agree, especially if the team is contending for the tournament.  
 
 

 

Yeah totally, even though this is Eklund, I think it makes perfect sense.  They may even have the framework for a deal in place, or they may just be expecting to replace him in UFA if he gets a better deal.

 

Wayne is HUGE in that locker room.  I don’t think they’ll trade that for anything unless they are utterly in the tank.  

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

From a team-building standpoint, you wouldn't want to get "nothing" for him.

 

Exactly.

 

And if you can't come to terms after he posted his lowest point total (24 goals 46 point season) since 2012-13 then you surely won't be able to afford him if he has another 50-60 points season again. 

 

Unless you hoping he has a a less stellar season which wouldn't even make sense....so i would just try to move him before the season starts (which i know they won't do)....which is i can't figure out what they plan on doing with this guy.

 

Hard to really... even though i said i would,  pay your 3rd line RW 7+ mill per season.

Edited by OccamsRazor
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It depends on the return. I'm sure they could move him, but would you take two 2nds if that's the best offer? Then what if you're looking to add at the deadline? It will likely cost you more to add a comparable player when it rolls around. So it makes sense to hold onto him and treat him as an "own rental." Keeping him, even if it's only one more year, is one more year that you don't need to worry about the right wing. You don't NEED NAK or Allison to step in, you don't have to dress the inferior Weise, you don't have to find an outside replacement. That in and of itself is valuable. From an asset management standpoint, you clearly don't want to let Simmonds go for nothing. But this isn't the Isles last year, who were terrible and never traded Tavares. This is a team that should take a step forward, and be pretty firmly in the playoffs. This is a situation where I'm not sure it's necessary to take that half step back to take another step forward.

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On 8/14/2018 at 11:51 AM, OccamsRazor said:

Hard to really... even though i said i would,  pay your 3rd line RW 7+ mill per season.

 

I get that and feel the same way, but I'm trying to determine if I should care.

If you can afford it (paying him that for more than 4 years would start to become a problem) and he can still produce (remains to be seen, but I feel good about that), then why shouldn't you make your third line as good as it can be?  

 

If you can afford to make your top 6 as good as they can be and STILL afford a player worth 7 million on your third who's willing to play third line minutes... why shouldn't you?  Makes your team better for 5/6 of the game instead of 2/3.  

 

Isn't it kind of the dream to have a guy with $7 million on your third line? It's only ever really possible when you have a bunch of guys who WILL be worth that much but aren't yet in your top 6.   

 

Again, I don't think it'll happen, but if they could get the duration down so it doesn't interfere with really paying the likes of Coots, Konex, Provo, etc and they feel confident Wayne is gonna be Wayne... then isn't it worth it?

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4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

If you can afford it (paying him that for more than 4 years would start to become a problem) and he can still produce (remains to be seen, but I feel good about that), then why shouldn't you make your third line as good as it can be

 

I guess because you have to stating spreading around for the future now you have TK still to sign.

 

So i think he will need at least 4.5-5 mill per year on a 3-5 year bridge deal.

 

And that is just guessing Neal just signed for 5.75 per for 25 goals 44 points.

 

Ehlers signed for 7 for 6 mill for 29 goals 60 points.

 

Kane 7 for 29 goals 54 points.

 

So the $$$$$ will have to be spread around and with signing other in mind...trying to keep it sane i guess.

 

So yeah now can you afford to pay your top line RW 5+ mill per and your 3rd line RW 7+

 

I so no.....

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17 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Isn't it kind of the dream to have a guy with $7 million on your third line?

 

Uh no.

 

In regard to TK i just mentioned i would be ok signing him to a shorter Anthony Mantha type deal as well.

 

Mantha got 2 years 3.3mill per for his very similar TK like stats 24 goals and 48 points.

 

See how he does and go from there, he would still have some RFA years left.

 

Certainly don't want him getting Tom Wilson like numbers.

 

 

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    • 4
      Post
      @elmatus your post is exhibit a that pro sports is indeed a business.  it is a good post and makes perfect sense. It also sucks that a fan favorite who has done a team solid can't get rewarded for doing the solid. all the things are true, and that bums me out.
    • 4
      Post
      It depends on the return. I'm sure they could move him, but would you take two 2nds if that's the best offer? Then what if you're looking to add at the deadline? It will likely cost you more to add a comparable player when it rolls around. So it makes sense to hold onto him and treat him as an "own rental." Keeping him, even if it's only one more year, is one more year that you don't need to worry about the right wing. You don't NEED NAK or Allison to step in, you don't have to dress the inferior Weise, you don't have to find an outside replacement. That in and of itself is valuable. From an asset management standpoint, you clearly don't want to let Simmonds go for nothing. But this isn't the Isles last year, who were terrible and never traded Tavares. This is a team that should take a step forward, and be pretty firmly in the playoffs. This is a situation where I'm not sure it's necessary to take that half step back to take another step forward.
    • 3
      Post
      I can understand the sentiment, but let's not pretend like living life with $24M in the bank is any kind of downgrade from what he's living now. At some point, you have enough money, and it is the agents looking to maximize salaries for both selfish (their own commission) and collective (driving up overall player salaries) reasons.    Some players are the greedy type that really want that big paycheque, but I would venture that most NHL players are pretty reasonable and in the end, the difference between $24M, and $30M on their quality of life is negligible.    Wayne Simmonds is a small town kid who managed to fulfill his dream and make millions of dollars doing it. If he takes any kind of "discount" it's because he's choosing to control his own destiny and play where he wants to be. And that's the best decision a person can make, period.    
    • 2
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      Stock up Wayne going to be a rough one this next 5-6 years...hard times a comin...  
    • 2
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      4 years 28 mill is my final offer.
    • 1
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      I get what you're saying but no way Simmer takes a two year deal....no way Hextall insults him like that.

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