Flyers Goaltending Situation

[AJgoal]

20 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah i would swap Friedman out with Hagg and see if that does it.

 

Seems like Ottawa would be ok with that considering the get out from under Anderson's contract for 2019-20 too.

 

And get Elliott and Condon in net so they look like they are trying.

 

It is risky for the Flyers next year if Anderson bombs though.

 

What? No. Ottawa was overpaying. Why are you upping the payment?

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

What? No. Ottawa was overpaying. Why are you upping the payment?

 

How is Elliott and Friedman overpaying??

 

What are you saying Elliott and Anderson straight up??

[AJgoal]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

How is Elliott and Friedman overpaying??

 

What are you saying Elliott and Anderson straight up??

 

Anderson is overpayment for Elliott and Hagg. Let Ottawa overpay. They're good at it.

[ruxpin]

40 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Anderson is overpayment for Elliott and Hagg. Let Ottawa overpay. They're good at it.

I'm not sure. Anderson two years ago is vast overpayment. Anderson last year?  Not sure the Flyers aren't overpaying. 

 

Unless he's jumped the shark, gotta figure last year was an aberration for Anderson. So yeah, probably an overpayment for Ottawa.  I want a pick from them, though. 

[OccamsRazor]

57 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm not sure. Anderson two years ago is vast overpayment. Anderson last year?  Not sure the Flyers aren't overpaying. 

 

Unless he's jumped the shark, gotta figure last year was an aberration for Anderson. So yeah, probably an overpayment for Ottawa.  I want a pick from them, though. 

 

If he doesn't regain his form from the year before then no point in even trading for him.

 

Might as well stay the course with Elliott and reboot the goalie position after this year.

[OccamsRazor]

Had to edit the previous post @ruxpin

 

I mean DOESN'T.

[AJgoal]

7 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Just to be clear here, you're going to continue to harp on them losing Mark Alt to waivers and you are apparently OK with Hagg being an overpayment with a 2nd and a mediocre goalie for a stop gap fill in in Anderson?

 

Asking for a message board.

 

When did I harp on losing Alt on waivers? I seriously don't remember this. 

 

I'm mostly joking about Hagg in this instance, but I am a noted Hagg hater. I said it early in the offseason, I truly believe Hagg is a player the Flyers should trade now, because I think his value will literally never be higher.

[elmatus]

44 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

I truly believe Hagg is a player the Flyers should trade now, because I think his value will literally never be higher

 

I agree he's not part of the long term picture at this point. Not that he's the worst dman I've seen, it's that he won't stand up to the Sanheims, Myers, Morins, etc to come. Is he serviceable as a bottom pair guy or 7th? Yeah, maybe, but could we get more value from a trade now? I think it's possible too.

 

Prove me wrong, Hagg. Show me you're more than just a quantity hitter in this league, cause that's not enough anymore.

[brelic]

So at 23 years old, you guys are ready to declare Hagg a finished product?

[elmatus]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

So at 23 years old, you guys are ready to declare Hagg a finished product?

 

I wouldn't say that. I think on many other teams he's on the roster. My point is that with the talent we have coming up, it's hard to see Hagg as anything more than a bottom pair or 7th on this team in the not so distant future. Given that, is his value effectively higher now than it will be later on? I think it's possible.

 

Put another way, I could see a team in dire need of defense (EDM, NJD) potentially trading a pretty good young scoring forward or prospect for Hagg right now. I'm not sure we'll get that for him in another 2-3 seasons. We need young scoring forwards and prospects more than we need Hagg.

 

Will he suddenly develop another side to his game? I think offense is unlikely, but he could potentially become more a shutdown guy. He'll clearly never be Provo, and he's unlikely to end up better than Morin defensively. Right there he's slotted on the bottom pair at best in a balanced pairing.

[AJgoal]

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

So at 23 years old, you guys are ready to declare Hagg a finished product?

 

At 23 years old, I look at Hagg's flaws, primarily skating, passing, and IQ, and conclude that he does not have a high ceiling. Especially not as compared to the other players coming along. RIGHT NOW he belongs on the bottom pair, and that's without Myers or Morin. If either or both of them make it, then he's a 6 or 7 on this team. But I've always said, you need bottom pair guys too. I don't want him off the team just to get rid of him.

 

My advocacy for trading him now is that he's young, and there are bound to be GMs out there that view him as still having potential, as well as like the physical aspect that he brought last year. The longer you hold onto him, the more that potential dries up, and the less value he has. 

 

I could be wrong about his upside, but I just don't see it. 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

So at 23 years old, you guys are ready to declare Hagg a finished product?

 

 

I don't feel that way. It is why i was wanting to swap Friedman out with Hagg in the deal to go along with Elliott.

[OccamsRazor]

I think Nitty and his wonky hip might be better than Elliott right now...

 

 

...sign him now!!!!!!

[brelic]

@AJgoal @elmatus

 

Good points all around, and you guys may be right. 

 

It feels like he's become the new Mandog whipping boy. Will he develop an offensive game? Probably not, but he could definitely become better at the parts of his game he's been developing defensively. He's got one NHL season under his belt, so still very early in his development. 

 

Bottom line is that I wouldn't be ready to move on from him as much as I am for Gudas or AMac. Those guys, to me, are finished products. 

 

As far as Morin and Myers are concerned, we *hope* they will be better because they seem to have higher ceilings, but they may very well not. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

24 minutes ago, brelic said:

Will he develop an offensive game?

 

He scored one more goal than Gudas did last year in the same amount of games and almost a half the clip of Gudas.

 

The thing wit Hagg is he just doesn't try to display his offense. He just prefers to play defense.

 

I am ok with the simple play if he concentrate on just becoming the the stay at home shutdown type of defender he is suppose to be.

 

And we have seen him display that with only 71 games of NHL under his belt.

 

What he needs to do is continue to keep it simple and concentrate on his consistency and it will take care of itself he is only 23 and i don't think a finished product. Until other like Morin and Meyers have proven they are ready for a full time spot there is no problem to wory about.

 

And if they do he has a very moveable contract. No worries from me.

[OccamsRazor]

Makes me feel better...

 

 

...SMFH...eventually he will get to where he can move around a little in his crease....

 

#goldstandard

[AJgoal]

41 minutes ago, brelic said:

@AJgoal @elmatus

 

Good points all around, and you guys may be right. 

 

It feels like he's become the new Mandog whipping boy. Will he develop an offensive game? Probably not, but he could definitely become better at the parts of his game he's been developing defensively. He's got one NHL season under his belt, so still very early in his development. 

 

Yes and no. He's got five years of pro hockey under his belt at this point. Can he grow more into the NHL game? Possibly. But he's certainly not early in his development. By the numbers, he was the Flyers' least effective d-man in both zones last year.  He gave up goals at the highest rate of anyone (except Oduya), despite benefitting from one of the best goalie save percentages. 

 

Quote

 

Bottom line is that I wouldn't be ready to move on from him as much as I am for Gudas or AMac. Those guys, to me, are finished products. 

 

Finished products that outperform him - yes, even AMac. Gudas was extremely effective for the Flyers until being paired with Manning last year. And again, I'm not screaming to trade Hagg because I don't want him on the team. I think that today, he's still a useful player. BUT in two years, I envision a scenario where he walks away without a QO, or is an AHL callup. If I can get something of value before that happens, rather than giving NHL GMs more time to come to the same conclusion I have, I would prefer that. 

 

I could be wrong, of course. But so far, the numbers aren't on his side.

 

Quote

 

As far as Morin and Myers are concerned, we *hope* they will be better because they seem to have higher ceilings, but they may very well not. 

 

 

 

Absolutely. Although Myers did look better in the preseason than Hagg, despite the expected rookie mistakes. Once he gains some confidence, I fully expect him to easily surpass Hagg. Morin I'm not sold on, but if he's at least equally as good, his size alone will be enough to further marginalize Hagg.

[mojo1917]

34 minutes ago, brelic said:

@AJgoal @elmatus

 

Good points all around, and you guys may be right. 

 

It feels like he's become the new Mandog whipping boy. Will he develop an offensive game? Probably not, but he could definitely become better at the parts of his game he's been developing defensively. He's got one NHL season under his belt, so still very early in his development. 

 

Bottom line is that I wouldn't be ready to move on from him as much as I am for Gudas or AMac. Those guys, to me, are finished products. 

 

As far as Morin and Myers are concerned, we *hope* they will be better because they seem to have higher ceilings, but they may very well not. 

 

 

I agree with you.

Hagg possesses an accurate, heavy shot, that he rarely uses. It's the kind of shot that maybe doesn't beat the goalie all the time but does create rebounds. 

I am not ready to say he's done and he sucks, I don't think he's particularly slow, He'll hit a guy, for me he's a typical steady swedish defensman that successful teams seem to have in their line up.

Maybe there are other guys in the system with higher ceilings,  I don't think Hagg is chopped liver, I have yet to see Samuel Morin do anything in the NHL.  I have seen Hagg play and play pretty well for long stretches of time.

 

[brelic]

3 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Finished products that outperform him - yes, even AMac. Gudas was extremely effective for the Flyers until being paired with Manning last year. And again, I'm not screaming to trade Hagg because I don't want him on the team. I think that today, he's still a useful player. BUT in two years, I envision a scenario where he walks away without a QO, or is an AHL callup. If I can get something of value before that happens, rather than giving NHL GMs more time to come to the same conclusion I have, I would prefer that. 

 

I could be wrong, of course. But so far, the numbers aren't on his side.

 

I agree, he needs to get better. No question.

 

The only argument I'm making is that I wouldn't give up on him after his rookie year and trade him. When we talk about 'growing pains,' the reality is that for most of our prospects, it's a multi-year process, not months. So I agree with you that he's got two years to show he deserves another contract from the Flyers. 

 

6 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Absolutely. Although Myers did look better in the preseason than Hagg, despite the expected rookie mistakes. Once he gains some confidence, I fully expect him to easily surpass Hagg. Morin I'm not sold on, but if he's at least equally as good, his size alone will be enough to further marginalize Hagg.

 

Also agree that Myers looked better in preseason than Hagg. I think there are two reasons he was sent back.

 

1 - Hagg is not waiver exempt, and they are not willing to lose him for nothing. There may very well be an early season trade on defense if they truly believe Myers is better right now and can help the team.

 

2 - Myers, to me, did not sufficiently state his case the way Vorobyev did. Misha came in and looked comfortable, composed, and showed the poise you normally only see with experienced NHLers. In other words, he not only stated his case, he looked like a guy who absolutely belonged. 

 

Myers did not, IMO. He looked great in stretches, and seemed to fade as camp wore on. He had a great camp overall, and he's really close. He could play in the NHL right now, but spending a bit more time in the AHL won't hurt him, and he will be the first callup.

[AJgoal]

1 minute ago, brelic said:

 

I agree, he needs to get better. No question.

 

The only argument I'm making is that I wouldn't give up on him after his rookie year and trade him. When we talk about 'growing pains,' the reality is that for most of our prospects, it's a multi-year process, not months. So I agree with you that he's got two years to show he deserves another contract from the Flyers. 

 

I agree to an extent. Maybe I'm giving up on him, but I see this more as a case of "sell high." There are lots of people who think like you do. I'd bet there are a couple NHL GMs among them.

 

1 minute ago, brelic said:

 

Also agree that Myers looked better in preseason than Hagg. I think there are two reasons he was sent back.

 

1 - Hagg is not waiver exempt, and they are not willing to lose him for nothing. There may very well be an early season trade on defense if they truly believe Myers is better right now and can help the team.

 

2 - Myers, to me, did not sufficiently state his case the way Vorobyev did. Misha came in and looked comfortable, composed, and showed the poise you normally only see with experienced NHLers. In other words, he not only stated his case, he looked like a guy who absolutely belonged. 

 

Myers did not, IMO. He looked great in stretches, and seemed to fade as camp wore on. He had a great camp overall, and he's really close. He could play in the NHL right now, but spending a bit more time in the AHL won't hurt him, and he will be the first callup.

 

Agreed on all points. I wanted Myers up to start the year, but I have no problem with the demotion. He's close. Getting big minutes to start the year in the AHL won't hurt him.

[radoran]

12 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

When did I harp on losing Alt on waivers? I seriously don't remember this. 

 

I'm mostly joking about Hagg in this instance, but I am a noted Hagg hater. I said it early in the offseason, I truly believe Hagg is a player the Flyers should trade now, because I think his value will literally never be higher.

 

My bad. Occams was right before the post and I conflated them. 

 

Totally my fault.

 

Sincere honest apologies.

[AJgoal]

Just now, radoran said:

 

My bad. Occams was right before the post and I conflated them. 

 

Totally my fault.

 

Sincere honest apologies.

 

No problem. I suffer from early onset dementia, and sometimes I don't remember what I say. I do think my main reaction to Alt being claimed was, "Really?" though.

[OccamsRazor]

Well there is an option who is already on the payroll....sorta...

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

12 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

At 23 years old, I look at Hagg's flaws, primarily skating, passing, and IQ, and conclude that he does not have a high ceiling. Especially not as compared to the other players coming along. RIGHT NOW he belongs on the bottom pair, and that's without Myers or Morin. If either or both of them make it, then he's a 6 or 7 on this team. But I've always said, you need bottom pair guys too. I don't want him off the team just to get rid of him.

 

My advocacy for trading him now is that he's young, and there are bound to be GMs out there that view him as still having potential, as well as like the physical aspect that he brought last year. The longer you hold onto him, the more that potential dries up, and the less value he has. 

 

I could be wrong about his upside, but I just don't see it. 

 

I actually like Hagg, but I have to agree that if you're going to move one of the young guys (and still get value in return), the most likely candidate is Hagg.  And if Gudas and McDonald are both healthy and not being moved, you do it now.  You don't wait until he's been sitting in the press box 80% of the time and you've killed all your bargaining position.

[ruxpin]

18 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Well there is an option who is already on the payroll....sorta...

 

 

 

 

LOL  I saw this post in the preview on the "new content" page.   It didn't have the picture, so I was going to guess "Brian Boucher?"

 

No thank you on Bedtime Bear.