rottenrefs Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 Year in and year out it seems the Wild have at least 2, 3 or 4 players who really lack or drop off in production by not meeting expectations. As a result fans, staff, teammates... Say, 'well we fell short' in whatever aspect of play and typically use it as a crutch for lame excuses. This drives me nuts! Who will it be this year and why aren't these players being confronted by either reducing their minutes and holding them accountable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 Well, what are the expectations? Are the expectations realistic? What are you expecting from each player? And it needs to be quantifiable, not something nebulous like “hard work”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 And that's precisely what I'm talking about. Instead of clearly identifying with a real issue most people try discounting it with subdued reservations over it. Last year Coyle, Koivu and Nino's numbers declined quite a bit. Each year before that there's always been players who saw larger drops in production from previous years... Players I'm sure fans and other teammates thought they could count on more but in the end couldn't. I'm talking about goals and assists, their overall points remaining steady or increasing each year then suddenly dropping by 15-20. Players, coaches, commentators and fans have talked about players during games who they're hoping will 'get back on track' and by years' end haven't. You haven't noticed this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 23 hours ago, rottenrefs said: Year in and year out it seems the Wild have at least 2, 3 or 4 players who really lack or drop off in production by not meeting expectations. As a result fans, staff, teammates... Say, 'well we fell short' in whatever aspect of play and typically use it as a crutch for lame excuses. This drives me nuts! Who will it be this year and why aren't these players being confronted by either reducing their minutes and holding them accountable? Is this drop off in production you are speaking injury related? If so I have a really hard time equating that as a lame excuse. Maybe the key is the lack of talented players on the roster especially the 3rd and 4th lines. I took a look at last years roster why did the Wild need so many average, over the hill or even less than average players on the roster? ie. Foligno, Winnik, Cullen, Ennis. Stewart ? If you want to key in on the Coyle's, Nino's, Parise's injury issues as the problem by reducing their minutes I'm not seeing who you are giving those minutes to next season? Foligno, Fehr, Hendricks, Read, Rau? Really, you want to reduce your top players minutes, who do you think the Wild have to replace them? The Wild will need the newbies on the roster to step up. Ek only had 22 pts in 75 games last year and only 22 pts - they are going to need a lot more from him this season. They will also need a great rookie season from Greenway. But other than that there really isn't any change from last season to revamp a roster other than a healthier season for the top two lines and defense core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 2 hours ago, hf101 said: Is this drop off in production you are speaking injury related? If so I have a really hard time equating that as a lame excuse. Maybe the key is the lack of talented players on the roster especially the 3rd and 4th lines. I took a look at last years roster why did the Wild need so many average, over the hill or even less than average players on the roster? ie. Foligno, Winnik, Cullen, Ennis. Stewart ? If you want to key in on the Coyle's, Nino's, Parise's injury issues as the problem by reducing their minutes I'm not seeing who you are giving those minutes to next season? Foligno, Fehr, Hendricks, Read, Rau? Really, you want to reduce your top players minutes, who do you think the Wild have to replace them? The Wild will need the newbies on the roster to step up. Ek only had 22 pts in 75 games last year and only 22 pts - they are going to need a lot more from him this season. They will also need a great rookie season from Greenway. But other than that there really isn't any change from last season to revamp a roster other than a healthier season for the top two lines and defense core. More excuses. Injury related or not, why are injured players still getting their full equated minutes as usual? Two years ago Granlund dropped off in production shortly before the playoffs. After the playoffs it was discovered he had a broken hand. How the hell can a broken hand go undetected by teammates, coaches, staff? A broken bone in the foot, strained groins, hampered hamstrings, etc., etc. Bruised elbows, knees, a broken heart, not getting laid by the old lady - and on and on. As a professional hockey team who's in charge of noticing these things? Who is in charge of putting players out there at 100% and if they're not 100%, if they're playing at 90% or 95% (in some cases what? 80%?) what other players playing at 100% are better than putting those 'off their mark' in a different role so it doesn't hamper the whole phucking team? A bigger question is why are players not reporting their injuries? Oh I get it, because they don't want to miss out. (Oh boy, I can see the rich little entitled snivels weeping from their eyes already.) I get it, but IT IS NOT what's best for the team. The case in point: Players are running the team and those put in charge of running the team are not. IMO that's just wrong and it needs to change. Yet far worse are those giving in to them with exceptions and runny nosed excuses. - Likewise I do agree that newbies need to step up. But I will argue they are NOT capable of stepping up if they have their hands tied with others who don't have the capacity to also step up when they no longer have the gas in their tank to keep up. Every single successful team out there has lines on it with veterans and lines with just younger guys. The Wild have never, ever, paired a group of young guys together and allowed them to develop through the year. They always put some has-been veteran among them then bitch, whine and complain that so and so had a chance to step up but didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, rottenrefs said: Injury related or not, why are injured players still getting their full equated minutes as usual? Because they are more talented than deadbeats on the 4th line who shoudn't replace them. Do you really think Winnik , Stewart, or Foligno could have replaced Coyle's minutes last year? Or maybe you are thinking 3rd line center Cullen could have replaced Koivu since his scoring was a bit less than the previous year, but then Cullen only had 22 pts himself What did Ericsson-Ek do last year that deserves 2nd line minutes? There is also a 23 man roster limit. NHL teams can't just sit players and call-up from their AHL team at will. Every team has injuries and every team has players that play through injuries. This generally results in less than expected results for said player and often the same for the team results. The playoffs are a different animal most players and teams will do whatever it takes to put the best team on the ice and that means playing injured vs installing a rookie with 20 min ice times. In the last few years the Wild really haven't had much forward talent in their farm system to rely on call-ups, that is the biggest issue imo. this year they've rid the team of some of the 3rd and 4th line stiffs. Who is it that you are speaking of that deserves top line minutes? Zucker - Staal- Granlund Parise - Koivu - Coyle Nino - Ek - Rau Foligno - Greenway - Brown In my opinion the 3rd and 4th lines are still very weak compared to other Playoff contenders, add an unhealthy Sutter and this team will have a hard time winning enough games to make the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 28 minutes ago, hf101 said: Because they are more talented than deadbeats on the 4th line who shoudn't replace them. Do you really think Winnik , Stewart, or Foligno could have replaced Coyle's minutes last year? Or maybe you are thinking 3rd line center Cullen could have replaced Koivu since his scoring was a bit less than the previous year, but then Cullen only had 22 pts himself What did Ericsson-Ek do last year that deserves 2nd line minutes? There is also a 23 man roster limit. NHL teams can't just sit players and call-up from their AHL team at will. Every team has injuries and every team has players that play through injuries. This generally results in less than expected results for said player and often the same for the team results. The playoffs are a different animal most players and teams will do whatever it takes to put the best team on the ice and that means playing injured vs installing a rookie with 20 min ice times. In the last few years the Wild really haven't had much forward talent in their farm system to rely on call-ups, that is the biggest issue imo. this year they've rid the team of some of the 3rd and 4th line stiffs. Who is it that you are speaking of that deserves top line minutes? Zucker - Staal- Granlund Parise - Koivu - Coyle Nino - Ek - Rau Foligno - Greenway - Brown In my opinion the 3rd and 4th lines are still very weak compared to other Playoff contenders, add an unhealthy Sutter and this team will have a hard time winning enough games to make the playoffs. Teams that win the Cup also have players that are dinged or injured but they aren't dumb teams run by players. Their players, who are dinged or compromised by whatever, reduce their roles and capitalize on the somewhat limited ice time they're out there for while others eagerly contribute without their hands being tied. With the Wild hampered players don't afford themselves rest, or a break to rejuvenate themselves. Rather they carry on and it greatly hinders the team. So what excuse do you have for teams that find a way to work through these types of obstacles? There are none - they don't need excuses because winners don't need excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 15 hours ago, rottenrefs said: And that's precisely what I'm talking about. Instead of clearly identifying with a real issue most people try discounting it with subdued reservations over it. Last year Coyle, Koivu and Nino's numbers declined quite a bit. Each year before that there's always been players who saw larger drops in production from previous years... Players I'm sure fans and other teammates thought they could count on more but in the end couldn't. I'm talking about goals and assists, their overall points remaining steady or increasing each year then suddenly dropping by 15-20. Players, coaches, commentators and fans have talked about players during games who they're hoping will 'get back on track' and by years' end haven't. You haven't noticed this? Nino and Coyle's dropoffs in production were due to injuries. Point totals for both guys increased the 3 previous seasons before their injuries. Koivu's 35 years old. Drops in production for guys his age happen. Granlund, Dumba, Zucker have also shown increased production the past few seasons and haven't had any significant dropoffs in production over that time. Parise's dropoffs in production are injury related. Who are we talking about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confrontational Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Rot - your question stands and the responses are proving your point regarding excuses... I think Mikko's numbers are going to be abysmal this year - as he knows his career is about over - and he will still chew massive minutes with limited production... I think Staal's number will drop off - had a crazy last year - the odds on keeping that up another year are highly unlikely... I think Zucker is going to produce - but will regret that contract as he wonders where the rest of his team went... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreaseAndAssist Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 (shrugs) Or maybe...players who just got paid were not as motivated. Coyle got paid a little while ago, but he still has a few years left on his deal. But Koivu, he got that extension early into last season. Some of them got hurt. Charlie has had major injuries in the last two seasons. This last season both of his wrists needed surgery after the season, the year before that it was both shoulders. IMO, I heard the NHL Home Ice radio guys discuss Coyle and Nino a lot yesterday in their Wild radio hour. One of their personalities sees Coyle as just a teaser and felt he's probably not going to give you much more than 45 points in any given season, while Boomer (the host) seems to think he'll breakout. He's 26, most players who have been in the league as long as he has usually have had their breakout season a while ago. As for Nino, he really needs to rediscover his form or IMO he should be trade bait. It will be interesting to see if Eric Staal is extra motivated being in the last year of his bargain deal. While another great season will probably price him out of Minnesota, we could obviously benefit from him scoring 35+ goals again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 7 hours ago, Confrontational said: Rot - your question stands and the responses are proving your point regarding excuses... I think Mikko's numbers are going to be abysmal this year - as he knows his career is about over - and he will still chew massive minutes with limited production... I think Staal's number will drop off - had a crazy last year - the odds on keeping that up another year are highly unlikely... I think Zucker is going to produce - but will regret that contract as he wonders where the rest of his team went... Yep, and pointing out anything different is futile because they don't get it. They are, "What's in the water" and in heavy doses. 6 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said: (shrugs) Or maybe...players who just got paid were not as motivated. Coyle got paid a little while ago, but he still has a few years left on his deal. But Koivu, he got that extension early into last season. Some of them got hurt. Charlie has had major injuries in the last two seasons. This last season both of his wrists needed surgery after the season, the year before that it was both shoulders. IMO, I heard the NHL Home Ice radio guys discuss Coyle and Nino a lot yesterday in their Wild radio hour. One of their personalities sees Coyle as just a teaser and felt he's probably not going to give you much more than 45 points in any given season, while Boomer (the host) seems to think he'll breakout. He's 26, most players who have been in the league as long as he has usually have had their breakout season a while ago. As for Nino, he really needs to rediscover his form or IMO he should be trade bait. It will be interesting to see if Eric Staal is extra motivated being in the last year of his bargain deal. While another great season will probably price him out of Minnesota, we could obviously benefit from him scoring 35+ goals again! Just got home from work and during the short drive KFAN was interviewing Paul Fenton. The one player they immediately honed in on was Charlie Coyle. Fenton started out saying Coyle is the only big right handed shot the Wild have. He also noted he started out well last year then went 20 games without a goal... Then defined his big size attacking the net is what the Wild need more of... And pointed out they're working with him to (essentially) get his head straight to do just that. Can I get an Amen? If they get the right players and coaches in his head there may be some hope. Based on what Fenton was talking about at least he's seen the light while others still completely miss the boat. His influence seeing this is precisely what players like Coyle need and hopefully he doesn't stop there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/26/2018 at 11:14 AM, hf101 said: Is this drop off in production you are speaking injury related? If so I have a really hard time equating that as a lame excuse. Maybe the key is the lack of talented players on the roster especially the 3rd and 4th lines. I took a look at last years roster why did the Wild need so many average, over the hill or even less than average players on the roster? ie. Foligno, Winnik, Cullen, Ennis. Stewart ? If you want to key in on the Coyle's, Nino's, Parise's injury issues as the problem by reducing their minutes I'm not seeing who you are giving those minutes to next season? Foligno, Fehr, Hendricks, Read, Rau? Really, you want to reduce your top players minutes, who do you think the Wild have to replace them? The Wild will need the newbies on the roster to step up. Ek only had 22 pts in 75 games last year and only 22 pts - they are going to need a lot more from him this season. They will also need a great rookie season from Greenway. But other than that there really isn't any change from last season to revamp a roster other than a healthier season for the top two lines and defense core. The Wild can only afford average or below average players on the third and fourth lines because of some things that have had a sort of domino effect. They haven't been able to draft and develop decent scoring players, so they have to look to free agency or trades to remedy this. And anytime you go into free agency looking for a scorer, you are going to overpay, which they did with Zach Parise and Thomas Vanek. Another thing is the overpayment of Pominville and Koivu on their extensions. So by overpaying these scorers, the Wild have less money under the cap for decent third and fourth line players, having to settle for average to below average players, or hoping to get one last good season out of an over-the-hill player. And that doesn't even take into account the buyouts of Cooke, Vanek, and Ennis which chewed up anywhere from $500K to $2.5M per year. While the Wild have not been shy about spending to the cap, the way they have been spending the money hasn't been very wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 1 hour ago, rottenrefs said: Yep, and pointing out anything different is futile because they don't get it. They are, "What's in the water" and in heavy doses. Just got home from work and during the short drive KFAN was interviewing Paul Fenton. The one player they immediately honed in on was Charlie Coyle. Fenton started out saying Coyle is the only big right handed shot the Wild have. He also noted he started out well last year then went 20 games without a goal... Then defined his big size attacking the net is what the Wild need more of... And pointed out they're working with him to (essentially) get his head straight to do just that. Can I get an Amen? If they get the right players and coaches in his head there may be some hope. Based on what Fenton was talking about at least he's seen the light while others still completely miss the boat. His influence seeing this is precisely what players like Coyle need and hopefully he doesn't stop there. If Fenton said that he's a bigger moron than I thought. "He started out well..." Bull pucky. Coyle had 0 goals and 2 assists through three games when his leg was broken by a Jared Spurgeon slapshot. And he never went 20 games without a goal last season. He had two12 game streaks between goals and an eight game streak without a goal. But Coyle's always been like that. He will score, and then go for eight-nine-ten games without scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/25/2018 at 10:49 AM, rottenrefs said: Year in and year out it seems the Wild have at least 2, 3 or 4 players who really lack or drop off in production by not meeting expectations. As a result fans, staff, teammates... Say, 'well we fell short' in whatever aspect of play and typically use it as a crutch for lame excuses. This drives me nuts! Who will it be this year and why aren't these players being confronted by either reducing their minutes and holding them accountable? On 8/25/2018 at 10:49 AM, rottenrefs said: Year in and year out it seems the Wild have at least 2, 3 or 4 players who really lack or drop off in production by not meeting expectations. As a result fans, staff, teammates... Say, 'well we fell short' in whatever aspect of play and typically use it as a crutch for lame excuses. This drives me nuts! Who will it be this year and why aren't these players being confronted by either reducing their minutes and holding them accountable? Who are the players you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 6 hours ago, sweetshot said: Who are the players you are referring to? Seriously, you haven't noticed? Off the top of my head: Coyle, Nino, Koivu, Pominville, Vanek, Heatley, Havlat, Gaborik, Brunette, Parrish, Nolan, PMB, Rolston, Zidlicky, Scandella, Moulson... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 2 hours ago, rottenrefs said: Seriously, you haven't noticed? Off the top of my head: Coyle, Nino, Koivu, Pominville, Vanek, Heatley, Havlat, Gaborik, Brunette, Parrish, Nolan, PMB, Rolston, Zidlicky, Scandella, Moulson... I was thinking current roster. Coyle's and Nino's dropoff in production were because of injuries--they both had increased their point totals the previous 3 years before getting hurt. Koivu's 35--a dropoff in production was to be expected, especially considering he hadn't had a significant dropoff since he turned 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 9 hours ago, sweetshot said: I was thinking current roster. Coyle's and Nino's dropoff in production were because of injuries--they both had increased their point totals the previous 3 years before getting hurt. Koivu's 35--a dropoff in production was to be expected, especially considering he hadn't had a significant dropoff since he turned 30. So why is Koivu getting more minutes than Staal? Why are injured players averaging more minutes than non injured players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 30 minutes ago, rottenrefs said: So why is Koivu getting more minutes than Staal? Koivu plays the Penalty Kill along with the PP - Staal doesn't play on the PK. Staal averaged 17.49 min/game and Koivu 18:29 min. Are you really whining over 1-2 extra shifts per game? Maybe if the Wild didn't take any penalties it would show more ice time for Staal? 33 minutes ago, rottenrefs said: Why are injured players averaging more minutes than non injured players? Which players are you talking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 10 hours ago, hf101 said: Koivu plays the Penalty Kill along with the PP - Staal doesn't play on the PK. Staal averaged 17.49 min/game and Koivu 18:29 min. Are you really whining over 1-2 extra shifts per game? Maybe if the Wild didn't take any penalties it would show more ice time for Staal? Which players are you talking of? Have you even read the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, rottenrefs said: Have you even read the thread? If you don't want to hear the same answers why are you asking again the same questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 14 hours ago, rottenrefs said: So why is Koivu getting more minutes than Staal? Why are injured players averaging more minutes than non injured players? To the Koivu question--Maybe it's a conditioning thing. I am only guessing, but IMO it seems like Koivu is probably in as good as shape as just about anybody in the league. And Staal is 33. Just a guess, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confrontational Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Just so I understand - you think Mikko is getting huge minutes because he's in great shape...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Confrontational said: Just so I understand - you think Mikko is getting huge minutes because he's in great shape...? I'm guessing MK is in great shape. To answer your question, possibly yes--why couldn't that be a possibility for any player getting more ice time than another player who puts up better numbers? The guy who isn't in as good of shape(with better numbers) may see a drop in his level of play to the point that it is better to have the guy in better shape(whose level of play doesn't drop) play those minutes. You've heard of or seen veteran players putting it on cruise control at times? I was responding though, to the question of why does he get more minutes than Staal. I know that MK gets PK minutes and Stall doesn't. So I would probably give the same answer(guess) if the question were "how does MK get the same 5 on 5 minutes as Stall?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confrontational Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Yes, because the owners of this team built a franchise around him - and are too scared to think of a world without Mikko - even though the league has passed Mikko by... He is a decent player, no doubt, but to sign him for an extra two years at $5.5 - ummm, coming off of $7.5 I believe, not so much. He's a third line center commanding a huge salary and minutes - and does not have the skill sets anymore to be a threat. He does one thing awesome though on the power play - pass... (and pass, and pass, and pass) He's also not a leader in my opinion - maybe Rott feels like typing those traits out for you for 30 minutes - but I have to run... Staal hands down - beats Mikko like a rented mule in every category (well, besides passing nonstop on a power play)... "Hey, [in a clutch 3rd period game with one minute left and a critical point needed to get last spot in playoffs - Bruce looks down the bench - sees both Mikko and Staal sitting there] put Mikko in instead of Staal, that mofo can't produce, but man-o-man, check out his calves, that mofo is in shape...!" Not so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenrefs Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 11 hours ago, hf101 said: If you don't want to hear the same answers why are you asking again the same questions? ^ That must be akin to someone asking a question, me answering... Then someone else asks the same question, I answer the same way. Then two more users do exactly the same thing expecting a different result. This is exactly how I felt about the Wild Power Play when coach Yeo would say they came up with a new PP scheme... (Like 8 different times.) Then put 4 of the same (((((failed)))) core PP players out there, added a new 5th guy to the line (never passed to him) and expected better results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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