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WordsOfWisdom

What if Toronto got Karlsson and San Jose got Tavares?

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Do you think Toronto would have been a better team if they got Karlsson instead of Tavares this summer?  (Not saying they could have anyway, but just for discussion.)

 

Toronto has plenty of forwards. They need defence. It's a stacked team down the middle, but you can't score when you're hemmed into your own zone all night and your goalie is facing 40+ shots. 

 

I suspect the reason Toronto went after Tavares (and this is just a hunch/gut/pessimistic feeling) is because of the rift between Matthews and Babcock last season, and (perhaps) the desire for Matthews to be back home in the US rather than playing in Canada. US born players inevitably play for American based teams. By contrast, Canadian players seldom play for Canadian based teams. 

 

I think Tavares is like an "insurance policy" for the Leafs in the event that Matthews doesn't want to stick around long term. Or maybe the Leafs are simply following the Penguins model of having a team stacked at center ice and saying forget the rest.

 

Thoughts?  

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I would buy into the theory that Karlsson would have made the Leafs "better" overall than the Tavares signing they did do.

Now, let me preface this by saying I am NOT taking anything away from Tavares or the Leafs on his signing. Not in the least.
In fact, BEFORE the Tavares signing, I viewed the Leafs as a good team, but afterwards, now I see them as a legit threat to the Atlantic Division title.

 

Now that's out of the way, yea, Erik Karlsson would have addressed several needs in one shot.
First off, he is a defenseman. Something the Leafs could use...and not just any defenseman, an elite one.

And before certain Leaf fans get a maple up their butts, I'd be saying the same thing if Tampa Bay had somehow gotten Karlsson….. that he would have been a better add even if it meant not being able to sign, oh, say Nikita Kucherov. Yep. I said it.

 

Karlsson is not only a defenseman, but one that plays like a forward and not only makes the 5 man unit better, but makes ANY PP the Leafs would put out there better, AND can even help a mediocre to middling type defenseman look better playing alongside him simply because Karlsson does so much on the ice...the other guy just has skate, and not screw anything up most times.

On top of all that, with Karlsson taking up a top pair spot, with whomever partner is with him, it helps slot OTHER Leaf defensemen much better.

 

And all this is possible because the Leafs DO have lots of other offensive weapons even without John Tavares.

 

There were many games I watched with Ottawa vs whomever, where, despite the Sens being horrible, Erik Karlsson single handedly still gave the Senators a chance to win with his play and finding open Ottawa forwards and helping to tilt the ice in the other direction.
Again, with a horrible Sens team.

Imagine what he could do with the crop of forwards Toronto has.

LIke I said before, it would elevate Toronto to just about equal status, if not equal, to the Lightning as a team that could claim undisputed ownership of the top spot.

That still may happen with John Tavares on board.
Tavares, Matthews, Kadri down the middle is pretty formidable.

But having a puck moving, offensive defenseman, one who can take away pucks, block shots, and skate like the wind on their blue line would have definitely made Frederik Andersen's job that much easier and have made it more of a nightmare for other contenders like TB and Bos to play the match up game when #65 is on the ice.

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First no way no how would Ottawa ever in a million years have traded Karlsson down province to Toronto. Ottawa is the capital but seems to have a bit of a jealousy of Toronto, hockey wise anyway with Toronto getting all the pub in Ontario once you get five Ks away from Ottawa. Trading Karlsson to Toronto would have ended in a revolt with pitchforks and tar and feathers unless somehow they managed to wheedle Marner or if not that maybe a package that included Nylander/Liljegren. I do understand however that this is simply an escersize so lets run with it assuming that Karlsson is dealt for Nylander and Liljegren which is more than they received but that is likely the only way he gets traded to Toronto.

 

  Tavares in San Jose would have been a great signing, Pavelski had a solid year but is getting up their and is an UFA at seasons end it would have almost certainly ended his career in San Jose at the end of the coming season but for this year only would have given the Sharks Tavares/Pavelski/Thornton/Tierney down the middle which would have arguably been the best in the game. Or they could have used Tierney as bait to go add a middle pair defender, the Hurricanes desperately need centers to go with the talented young core and a Tierney and a pick for Justin Faulk would certainly have been within the realm of possibility and they would have become the odds on favorite to win the West. 

 

  Toronto would certainly have missed  Nylander but Karlsson would change the dynamic, like Pavelski in San Jose, Gardiner would almost certainly be gone at years end as an UFA but for this year Karlsson, Gardiner and Reilly would have given them insane offensive upside from the back end. It is fair to say that adding Karlsson would have made them one of the top teams in the East if not THE best team in the game.

 

  That said, Tavares cost the Leafs nothing save for money and they still have Nylanderand the rest of the young forwards in place, Liljegren is a very talented blueliner who will likely stick this season and has offensive upside, not Karlsson level but 40 points, Sergachev type numbers could be realistic. And Karlsson cost the Sharks very little in terms of value for the upcoming year, futures with Norris and a handful of picks will determine years down the road who wins this deal as well as if Karlsson decides to stay for the long term.

 

  If they had went to the opposite teams it is fair to say nobody would be surprised if the two teams met in the SCF this season. But it is equally fair to say that with Tavares in Toronto and Karlsson in San Jose, nobody would be surprised if they met in the finals this year anyway. Elite talented players who play key positions who went to cup contenders for virtually nothing, no matter which way they went it made the rich richer and potentially very good teams great.

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I think it would have filled both teams immediate needs better.

 

But in retrospect, I am sticking with Karlsson because I want to see him paired with Vlasic and rotating with the Burns Ryan pairing to play 50-55+ minutes a night.

 

I have never EVER seen a situation where you can ice a dominant ice tilting offensive Defenseman capable of 70+ points for the majority of the game except during All star games. Usually I wait with baited breath for Burns to hit the ice because the ice then tilts into the offensive zone. Now I can watch pretty much the entire game with a dominant D on the ice

 

 

We are not lacking forward depth. Hertl and Meier are coming into their own.

 

But due to the age of our C's, Tavares would have been the more logical fit(Which is why we pushed so hard to get him)

 

If Ottawa would have dealt with Toronto, I suspect the Leafs since they already had Matthews/Kadri would rather have Karlsson to bolster their PP and give them a true offensive Dman and then gone looking for a 3rd line C

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@J0e Th0rnton

 

  Lets say the Sharks are down one with five minutes to go in the third, there is no reason they cannot pair Burns and Karlsson for those minutes and double shift them if needed as well to put insane pressure on the opponent. The possibilities for your boys are endless. And for added pressure throw Kane/Pavelski"Couture on the ice for those final minutes when you need a goal as well. Those five essentially make for a five on five power play, lol.

 

  So as a Shark fan and a Pavelski fan as well, signing Karlsson long term would likely mean this is the end for Pavelski in San jose. That would really be the only drawback to doing so but I love Meier and Hertl has upside. The minors are pretty bare right now but the Sharks are built for today not tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, yave1964 said:

@J0e Th0rnton

 

  Lets say the Sharks are down one with five minutes to go in the third, there is no reason they cannot pair Burns and Karlsson for those minutes and double shift them if needed as well to put insane pressure on the opponent. The possibilities for your boys are endless. And for added pressure throw Kane/Pavelski"Couture on the ice for those final minutes when you need a goal as well. Those five essentially make for a five on five power play, lol.

 

  So as a Shark fan and a Pavelski fan as well, signing Karlsson long term would likely mean this is the end for Pavelski in San jose. That would really be the only drawback to doing so but I love Meier and Hertl has upside. The minors are pretty bare right now but the Sharks are built for today not tomorrow.

It all depends. Next year we have 44.5 million in Salary cap tied up.

 

Dillon and Braun are our 5th and 6th Dmen and they eat 7 Million in Salary. The likelyhood that one of them is moved  is very high. Probably Braun since Heed can file into that right hand shot 6th Dman and be signed for 1.5 million.

 

Melker Karlsson(No relation) may also be moved) since 2 million is a lot for a 4th liner

 

Joakim Ryan we can lock up for a few million for a few more years since he is basically Paul Martin 2.0 as the wookie whisperer(Burns babysitter) but has not proven enough to get a big contract yet.

 

I suspect Jumbo Joe will take a major discount. He waited to sign until the Tavares rodeo was over and Wilson intimated he was going to just sign for whatever was left if Tavares did in fact take that 13 million. Previously he offered 2 million of his contract after finishing 5th in scoring to pad Marleau's contract. That's just how joe rolls.

 

Let's spitball that they take these contracts.(Pavelski signing for what Burns/Couture did)

 

Kane 7m/Pavelski 8M/ Meier 3.5M (Depending on what sort of breakout he has)

Hertl 5.625M/ Couture 8M/ Donskoi 2.5M (unless he breaks out this year too)

Sorenson 1.25M/ Thornton 3M/ Labanc 2.5M (Unless he breaks out this year)

Gambrell 1M/ Suomela 1M/ Goodrow 750k

 

44.25 Forwards

 

Vlasic 7M/Karlsson 12M

Ryan 2.5M/ Burns 8M

Simek .675K/Heed 1.5M

 

31.675M

 

 

Jones 5.75M

Dell 1.9M

 

7.65M

 

So yeah we are over the 79.5 cap at 83.57M by about 4 Million(If the cap does not go up again). Bye Aaron Dell who will get a starter tryout on a team like Talbot/Raanta did. And bye one of Donskoi/Labanc who will be on bridge deals.

 

I HOPE Pavelski does not want term at his age and will sign a 3-4 year like Jumbo did at that age instead of asking for the mega long deal.

 

Impossible to say since I have never seen Pavelski in negotiations. It is just always announced quickly that he agreed to extend

 

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On 9/19/2018 at 8:40 PM, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I would buy into the theory that Karlsson would have made the Leafs "better" overall than the Tavares signing they did do.

Now, let me preface this by saying I am NOT taking anything away from Tavares or the Leafs on his signing. Not in the least.
In fact, BEFORE the Tavares signing, I viewed the Leafs as a good team, but afterwards, now I see them as a legit threat to the Atlantic Division title.

 

I think Tavares will get the "Gilmour treatment" in Toronto if he delivers here like he did in New York. Fans like to see high level local players in Toronto, so I'm stoked that he's here. :)

 

 

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On 9/20/2018 at 5:59 AM, yave1964 said:

First no way no how would Ottawa ever in a million years have traded Karlsson down province to Toronto. Ottawa is the capital but seems to have a bit of a jealousy of Toronto, hockey wise anyway with Toronto getting all the pub in Ontario once you get five Ks away from Ottawa.

 

I imagine that's why it never could have happened in the first place. The Ottawa/Toronto rivalry. 

 

Toronto does get more publicity than Ottawa in the same manner that the Rangers get more attention than the Islanders. Ottawa doesn't have the history that Toronto has. They need to win a few Cups first before they get press. I think the Sens are still viewed as being that "expansion team" that hasn't really done anything since joining the NHL in (1992?). They really haven't won anyone over outside of Ottawa because you can't look back on any great Cup winning teams from Ottawa.  :)

 

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On 9/20/2018 at 7:26 AM, J0e Th0rnton said:

But in retrospect, I am sticking with Karlsson because I want to see him paired with Vlasic and rotating with the Burns Ryan pairing to play 50-55+ minutes a night.

 

I have never EVER seen a situation where you can ice a dominant ice tilting offensive Defenseman capable of 70+ points for the majority of the game except during All star games. Usually I wait with baited breath for Burns to hit the ice because the ice then tilts into the offensive zone. Now I can watch pretty much the entire game with a dominant D on the ice

 

Would Burns and Karlsson be the most stacked defensive unit in the last 20 years?  

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4 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Would Burns and Karlsson be the most stacked defensive unit in the last 20 years?  

Late seventies the Bruins traded for Brad Park to team with Bobby Orr but in Grapes book he said that Orr's wonky knees finally gave out more or less for good shortly after or that would have certainly been the best ever. There have been some great ones over the years, Potvin teaming with some offensive defenseman on the Isle (for some reason people seem to have forgotten how gifted offensively blueliners Persson and McEwen were) the trio in Montreal in the seventies of Robinson, Savard and Lapointe were likely the best threesome ever, but for pure offensive firepower, Burns/Karlsson might be the best we have seen if both just have their own ordinary seasons. They don't have to be extra special, just be themselves.

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3 hours ago, yave1964 said:

Late seventies the Bruins traded for Brad Park to team with Bobby Orr but in Grapes book he said that Orr's wonky knees finally gave out more or less for good shortly after or that would have certainly been the best ever. There have been some great ones over the years, Potvin teaming with some offensive defenseman on the Isle (for some reason people seem to have forgotten how gifted offensively blueliners Persson and McEwen were) the trio in Montreal in the seventies of Robinson, Savard and Lapointe were likely the best threesome ever, but for pure offensive firepower, Burns/Karlsson might be the best we have seen if both just have their own ordinary seasons. They don't have to be extra special, just be themselves.

and with Vlasic, they have one of the best defensive defensemen of their generation(Who also has a sick transition game)

 

It is hard to quantify how good Burns/Karlsson/Vlasic are compared to teams from the 70's/80's since scoring 70 points as a Dman now is like scoring 90 back then.

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The last 20 years Niedermayer/Pronger, Lidstrom/Rafalski, Niedermayer/Stevens were very effective duos, not as offensively dominant but dominant none the less.

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Not a big fan of Karlsson. Never been. Not sure why, but I find his game to be a little "sloppy" at times. I think everyone needs to take a turn sweeping the floor. I think he is overrated.

 

Between the two players you mention, I'd be much happier with Tavares. Can't beat the home team discount.😉

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I think that Toronto would be a better team, long term, if they had not signed John Tavares.

 

Matthews is an absolute animal; a wonderful hockey talent, but he also doesn't have a fully formed all-around game at this stage. This is completely normal. And yes, right now, the Matthews and Tavares on the same team looks great so far, but there's more to it than that. It's really the Matthews/Tavares/Marner show and it should have included Nylander.

 

Everybody is worked up over Kyle Dubas but I think it's odd that rather than sign 3 drafted and developed RFAs that are extremely important to the team's future, the moment the opportunity arose, he chose to chase a Whale of epic proportions at a position where the team was already the deepest.

 

What happens when Ron Hainsey and Jake Gardiner are up for renewal? What happens if Nikita Zaitsev doesn’t meet that contract? What happens to Frederik Andersen, who will likely see another 65+ game regular season? Can the now sort of empty backup goalie group withstand the rest necessary for Andersen which will be needed for a deep playoff run?

 

Kyle Dubas is staring straight down the barrel at Cap Hell, and Brendan Shanahan’s pre-season presser to the young players to “make a sacrifice for the team,” shows that the team is well aware of it. I was endlessly amused when his example of how young players can take money out of their pocket so it can be deposited into John Tavares' bank account, was hearkening back to his days as a Red Wing. Does anybody else remember that time, when their payroll dwarfed every team's but the Rangers?

 

I personally think the Leafs made a mistake by signing him. He's an excellent player yes, but he is already the 2nd (and one could make the argument for 3rd) best player on that team behind Matthews and Marner. Those two young men are going to want to be paid, and they will deserve it.

 

I hope things work out for the team, if for no other reason than that my father-in-law is a long-suffering fan, and I think it would be great to see some success. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Edited by JR Ewing
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If the senators traded Karlsson to the leafs the fans would burn down senators HQ

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On 10/10/2018 at 5:01 PM, JR Ewing said:

Kyle Dubas is staring straight down the barrel at Cap Hell,

 

It pisses me off to no end that the NHL has a salary cap.  The Leafs SHOULD be able to spend 3x what other teams spend. They're the Yankees of the NHL and I want to see a stacked roster.

 

Ditch the cap and go to a luxury tax system!  

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The Cap is a fact of life for the NHL, now, and a GM's brilliance is now in part measured by his ability to manage the money.

 

I think big money should go to the stars but lesser lights should try to learn to cope with getting 1 to 1.5 mil. per year, tough I know but possible I think.

 

Paying players like Hainsey 3 mil. per, Brown 2+ mil. per, Hymen 2+ mil. per isn't realistic in this NHL.

 

LL thought he had an endless supply of money and spent like he did, Marleau 6+ mil. per for 3 years was a bad decision and is going to be even worse next year. I could never understand why TO dumps Kessel and then way overspends for Marleau. Giving Zaitsev 4+ mil. on a long term contract based on one year's results?

 

TO burned it to the ground to rebuild but irresponsible management couldn't resist the urge to spend. Tavares is well worth his salary but many on TO are overpaid.

 

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      First no way no how would Ottawa ever in a million years have traded Karlsson down province to Toronto. Ottawa is the capital but seems to have a bit of a jealousy of Toronto, hockey wise anyway with Toronto getting all the pub in Ontario once you get five Ks away from Ottawa. Trading Karlsson to Toronto would have ended in a revolt with pitchforks and tar and feathers unless somehow they managed to wheedle Marner or if not that maybe a package that included Nylander/Liljegren. I do understand however that this is simply an escersize so lets run with it assuming that Karlsson is dealt for Nylander and Liljegren which is more than they received but that is likely the only way he gets traded to Toronto.     Tavares in San Jose would have been a great signing, Pavelski had a solid year but is getting up their and is an UFA at seasons end it would have almost certainly ended his career in San Jose at the end of the coming season but for this year only would have given the Sharks Tavares/Pavelski/Thornton/Tierney down the middle which would have arguably been the best in the game. Or they could have used Tierney as bait to go add a middle pair defender, the Hurricanes desperately need centers to go with the talented young core and a Tierney and a pick for Justin Faulk would certainly have been within the realm of possibility and they would have become the odds on favorite to win the West.      Toronto would certainly have missed  Nylander but Karlsson would change the dynamic, like Pavelski in San Jose, Gardiner would almost certainly be gone at years end as an UFA but for this year Karlsson, Gardiner and Reilly would have given them insane offensive upside from the back end. It is fair to say that adding Karlsson would have made them one of the top teams in the East if not THE best team in the game.     That said, Tavares cost the Leafs nothing save for money and they still have Nylanderand the rest of the young forwards in place, Liljegren is a very talented blueliner who will likely stick this season and has offensive upside, not Karlsson level but 40 points, Sergachev type numbers could be realistic. And Karlsson cost the Sharks very little in terms of value for the upcoming year, futures with Norris and a handful of picks will determine years down the road who wins this deal as well as if Karlsson decides to stay for the long term.     If they had went to the opposite teams it is fair to say nobody would be surprised if the two teams met in the SCF this season. But it is equally fair to say that with Tavares in Toronto and Karlsson in San Jose, nobody would be surprised if they met in the finals this year anyway. Elite talented players who play key positions who went to cup contenders for virtually nothing, no matter which way they went it made the rich richer and potentially very good teams great.
    • 2
      Post
      I think it would have filled both teams immediate needs better.   But in retrospect, I am sticking with Karlsson because I want to see him paired with Vlasic and rotating with the Burns Ryan pairing to play 50-55+ minutes a night.   I have never EVER seen a situation where you can ice a dominant ice tilting offensive Defenseman capable of 70+ points for the majority of the game except during All star games. Usually I wait with baited breath for Burns to hit the ice because the ice then tilts into the offensive zone. Now I can watch pretty much the entire game with a dominant D on the ice     We are not lacking forward depth. Hertl and Meier are coming into their own.   But due to the age of our C's, Tavares would have been the more logical fit(Which is why we pushed so hard to get him)   If Ottawa would have dealt with Toronto, I suspect the Leafs since they already had Matthews/Kadri would rather have Karlsson to bolster their PP and give them a true offensive Dman and then gone looking for a 3rd line C
    • 2
      Post
      and with Vlasic, they have one of the best defensive defensemen of their generation(Who also has a sick transition game)   It is hard to quantify how good Burns/Karlsson/Vlasic are compared to teams from the 70's/80's since scoring 70 points as a Dman now is like scoring 90 back then.
    • 2
      Post
      I think that Toronto would be a better team, long term, if they had not signed John Tavares.   Matthews is an absolute animal; a wonderful hockey talent, but he also doesn't have a fully formed all-around game at this stage. This is completely normal. And yes, right now, the Matthews and Tavares on the same team looks great so far, but there's more to it than that. It's really the Matthews/Tavares/Marner show and it should have included Nylander.   Everybody is worked up over Kyle Dubas but I think it's odd that rather than sign 3 drafted and developed RFAs that are extremely important to the team's future, the moment the opportunity arose, he chose to chase a Whale of epic proportions at a position where the team was already the deepest.   What happens when Ron Hainsey and Jake Gardiner are up for renewal? What happens if Nikita Zaitsev doesn’t meet that contract? What happens to Frederik Andersen, who will likely see another 65+ game regular season? Can the now sort of empty backup goalie group withstand the rest necessary for Andersen which will be needed for a deep playoff run?   Kyle Dubas is staring straight down the barrel at Cap Hell, and Brendan Shanahan’s pre-season presser to the young players to “make a sacrifice for the team,” shows that the team is well aware of it. I was endlessly amused when his example of how young players can take money out of their pocket so it can be deposited into John Tavares' bank account, was hearkening back to his days as a Red Wing. Does anybody else remember that time, when their payroll dwarfed every team's but the Rangers?   I personally think the Leafs made a mistake by signing him. He's an excellent player yes, but he is already the 2nd (and one could make the argument for 3rd) best player on that team behind Matthews and Marner. Those two young men are going to want to be paid, and they will deserve it.   I hope things work out for the team, if for no other reason than that my father-in-law is a long-suffering fan, and I think it would be great to see some success. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
    • 1
      Post
      Do you think Toronto would have been a better team if they got Karlsson instead of Tavares this summer?  (Not saying they could have anyway, but just for discussion.)   Toronto has plenty of forwards. They need defence. It's a stacked team down the middle, but you can't score when you're hemmed into your own zone all night and your goalie is facing 40+ shots.    I suspect the reason Toronto went after Tavares (and this is just a hunch/gut/pessimistic feeling) is because of the rift between Matthews and Babcock last season, and (perhaps) the desire for Matthews to be back home in the US rather than playing in Canada. US born players inevitably play for American based teams. By contrast, Canadian players seldom play for Canadian based teams.    I think Tavares is like an "insurance policy" for the Leafs in the event that Matthews doesn't want to stick around long term. Or maybe the Leafs are simply following the Penguins model of having a team stacked at center ice and saying forget the rest.   Thoughts?  
    • 1
      Post
      I would buy into the theory that Karlsson would have made the Leafs "better" overall than the Tavares signing they did do.

      Now, let me preface this by saying I am NOT taking anything away from Tavares or the Leafs on his signing. Not in the least.
      In fact, BEFORE the Tavares signing, I viewed the Leafs as a good team, but afterwards, now I see them as a legit threat to the Atlantic Division title.   Now that's out of the way, yea, Erik Karlsson would have addressed several needs in one shot.
      First off, he is a defenseman. Something the Leafs could use...and not just any defenseman, an elite one. And before certain Leaf fans get a maple up their butts, I'd be saying the same thing if Tampa Bay had somehow gotten Karlsson….. that he would have been a better add even if it meant not being able to sign, oh, say Nikita Kucherov. Yep. I said it.   Karlsson is not only a defenseman, but one that plays like a forward and not only makes the 5 man unit better, but makes ANY PP the Leafs would put out there better, AND can even help a mediocre to middling type defenseman look better playing alongside him simply because Karlsson does so much on the ice...the other guy just has skate, and not screw anything up most times.

      On top of all that, with Karlsson taking up a top pair spot, with whomever partner is with him, it helps slot OTHER Leaf defensemen much better.   And all this is possible because the Leafs DO have lots of other offensive weapons even without John Tavares.   There were many games I watched with Ottawa vs whomever, where, despite the Sens being horrible, Erik Karlsson single handedly still gave the Senators a chance to win with his play and finding open Ottawa forwards and helping to tilt the ice in the other direction.
      Again, with a horrible Sens team.

      Imagine what he could do with the crop of forwards Toronto has. LIke I said before, it would elevate Toronto to just about equal status, if not equal, to the Lightning as a team that could claim undisputed ownership of the top spot.

      That still may happen with John Tavares on board.
      Tavares, Matthews, Kadri down the middle is pretty formidable. But having a puck moving, offensive defenseman, one who can take away pucks, block shots, and skate like the wind on their blue line would have definitely made Frederik Andersen's job that much easier and have made it more of a nightmare for other contenders like TB and Bos to play the match up game when #65 is on the ice.

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