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sekkes85

Flyers claim Pickard

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15 hours ago, hf101 said:

I think the move to pick up Pickard was an insurance move.  Hextall had to know the interest in Stolarz, Lyons, and Neuvirth.  He's going to lose somebody.  Toronto just lost  2 netminders and they are going to want someone back.

 

May the best goalie earn Elliot's back-up.

 

So you're thinking this was done purely to have as many options in place as possible because Hextall's just assuming he's going to lose at least a goalie or two?  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Otherwise, I'm just not certain I see the point of this as Pickard would HAVE to remain with the Flyers or they lose him would they not or does he just have to pass through Waivers again?

 

Pickard has to remain on the roster for 30 or 10 games and then he can be waived.

 

They can just waive him later (just for instance when Neuvy is healthy and ready to play and they want to keep Neuvy)...however i think Neuvy has to remain on IR for 7 more days.

 

And i think they will waive Neuvy.

 

So for this conversation sake they waive Neuvy, he has to go unclaimed and then they could trade him to the Leafs since they need help in the AHL and then because he already pass through waivers the Leafs could just assign Neuvy to the Marlies.

 

This would keep the from having to claim him on waivers because then they would have to keep Neuvy on the roster for 30 days or 10 games and have to waive Sparks.

 

I hope this explains the situation.

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2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Pickard has to remain on the roster for 30 or 10 games and then he can be waived.

 

They can just waive him later (just for instance when Neuvy is healthy and ready to play and they want to keep Neuvy)...however i think Neuvy has to remain on IR for 7 more days.

 

And i think they will waive Neuvy.

 

So for this conversation sake they waive Neuvy, he has to go unclaimed and then they could trade him to the Leafs since they need help in the AHL and then because he already pass through waivers the Leafs could just assign Neuvy to the Marlies.

 

This would keep the from having to claim him on waivers because then they would have to keep Neuvy on the roster for 30 days or 10 games and have to waive Sparks.

 

I hope this explains the situation.

 

Yeah, thanks.  the 30/10 was the thing I couldn't dig up anyplace. 

 

They could conceivably do the above with any of the goalies after they clear (including Pickard after the 30/10) right?  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

So you're thinking this was done purely to have as many options in place as possible because Hextall's just assuming he's going to lose at least a goalie or two?  

 

 

 

No i think this was done as insurance because they don't think Stolie is ready and they want Stolie to play down in the AHL to get better healthier and they may have plans to have either Lyon, Pickard or Neuvy backup Elliott.

 

However i think when healthy in a weeks we could finally see them waive Neuvy then traded. I think that is what will go down.

 

And then when Lyon is healthy they will have a better idea if Pickard can help and then they will decide on who to keep Lyon or Pickard.

 

Which barring Pickard blowing their doors off will be waived because hey Lyon has the higher upside and is signed for next year already.

 

Then it will look like such:

 

Elliott/Lyon 

 

Hart/Stolie

 

Neuvy waived then traded.

 

Pickard waived then maybe traded later.

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1 minute ago, King Knut said:

They could conceivably do the above with any of the goalies after they clear (including Pickard after the 30/10) right?

 

Sure but the 30/10 is going to make that hard because Neuvy is set to come off IR in 7 days i think.

 

So that will complicate things and force the to waive him and go from their.

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Maybe you should have grabbed Pickford, the goalie from Everton and more importantly, the English  national/World Cup team.  LOL

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19 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Wow. So many ifs involved here. 

 

I have to guess that Neuvmaki is done as a Flyer. First, if that's the case, it's about time. It's actually a shame because I believe he actually has the talent, but the dude can't tie his laces without blood loss. 

 

The other possibility, I suppose, is that they are really concerned about Elliott's health and that they can't depend on Nittyveurth to help loadshare. But that amounts to the same thing as my first comment. 

 

I cannot imagine the intent is to replace Elliott with Pickard. This isn't meant to be an endorsement of Elliott, but Pickard simply isn't that good. 

 

But that brings us to Stolarz and Lyon. I imagine there's concern about the health of each, but the arrival of Pickard makes me wonder if the door is closing (just closed) about their future on the Flyers roster except for an injury call up. 

 

It's clear Hextall does nor want Hart on the NHL roster until he has at least significant time on the Phantoms (a good call). At the very least, it gives Flyers goaltending coaches and/or trainers sufficient time to completely screw him up before he gets to the big club. 

 

But IF he plays well in Lehigh (still an if, but one I'm hoping is likely) and IF he starts on the Flyers next year or even mid-season this year, you would think Lyon and Stolarz might be passed by Sandstrom by next year. Even if the latter doesn't happen, there's only room for one and slam the door on the other. 

 

Now (or wait until there's an injury elsewhere) might be the time to move one to get value back. 

 

I'm really starting to feel like Neuvirth will be the one waived, which they can't do until he's healthy. 

 

So, do you reassign Weise and go with 3 goalies until Neuvirth is healthy, then waive him plus one goalie? 

 

Or do you just waive Stolarz now? 

 

In all honesty, Pickard has the edge not only in NHL games played, but also being around the NHL for 4 seasons. His AHL numbers are also better. 

 

Depending on how the season goes, you could go with Pickard/Sandstrom next year, or even Elliott/Pickard if it works out.

 

We all hope Hart is ready sooner rather than later, but I'm thinking it will be 2 AHL seasons, with possible spot duty on the Flyers here and there before he's truly ready. That's just the overwhelming reality of goaltender development. 

 

Quick was 22/23 when he played regularly for the Kings, and hit star status at 25/26.

Rinne was 26/27 when he became a regular, peaked at 28/29.

Holtby played 14 games at 21/22, then 7 games at 22/23, and became a regular at 23/24. Peaked at 27/28.

Jones played 19 games at 23/24, 15 games at 24/25, and became a regular at 25/26.

Bernier played 4 games at 19/20, 0 games at 20/21, 15 games  at 21/22, and never really put it together at the NHL level.

Schneider played 8 games at 22/23, 2 games at 23/24, and became a regular at 24/25.

 

The smart move for Hextall is to plan for another 2-4 year bridge to Hart with some wiggle room in case the best case scenario works out. 

 

It's kind of a mess right now. But as a Flyers fan, I don't really know any different.

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40 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure but the 30/10 is going to make that hard because Neuvy is set to come off IR in 7 days i think.

 

So that will complicate things and force the to waive him and go from their.

 

He should get a rehab stint in the AHL, but that still wouldn't be enough.  

There's really no risk in waiving him though is there?  

 

If anyone's crazy enough to take him, no biggie.  And if he clears, you can do whatever you want with him.

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3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

He should get a rehab stint in the AHL, but that still wouldn't be enough.  

There's really no risk in waiving him though is there?  

 

If anyone's crazy enough to take him, no biggie.  And if he clears, you can do whatever you want with him.

 

Hard to said. Dude is a walking injury.

 

You never know how a another front office views other teams prospects compared to theirs.

 

See Martel. Who knew.

 

If they take Neuvy one problem solved I say.

 

Highly unlikely.

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6 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

 

It's kind of a mess right now. But as a Flyers fan, I don't really know any different.

 

This is a fun discussion and I plan to reply to some of your other thoughts soon, but I very quickly wanted to reply to this one with my own POV which is this:  At least we have options.  Rayzor, Boucher, Leighton and Little (as much affection as I have for some of those guys) were all desperate acquisitions.  Add to that a lot of bad ideas (Bryz, Roman) and mediocre starters we settled for (Biron, Esche, Hackett) And not for nuthin, but to me the big difference now is that we know we have AT LEAST Hart coming along and we know from limited exposure that he might actually be something.   That makes all this duct tape and bailing wire B.S. a lot more believable as simply a stop gap.  

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3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hard to said. Dude is a walking injury.

 

You never know how a another front office views other teams prospects compared to theirs.

 

See Martel. Who knew.

 

If they take Neuvy one problem solved I say.

 

Highly unlikely.

 

Yeah...  I agree.  But waiving him sorta solves the problem either way.  If someone takes him good luck to them!  If no one does... have fun as the Phantoms backup.  

 

Gives us options.  

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Posted (edited)

I like the Pickard pick up. He's still young. He's never played for a team as skilled as this year's Flyers are likely to be. He should be given a shot. Again, it's not like he has big shoes to fill.

 

Also, @brelic is right in saying that we should be looking for someone who can play another 3-4 years if need be. We can't rely on Hart for this season or even next season. If that happens, amazing, but it's not a likely scenario. If it takes him another two years to develop in the AHL, then that's what it takes.

 

In the meantime, Elliott has overstayed his welcome. Neuvirth cannot be asked to play a season of NHL hockey. Stolarz and Lyon are likely back ups at best (though they're quite possibly both better than Elliott). 

 

Is Pickard a guy who can take the reins for a couple years while Hart figures things out? Who knows? All I know is he has NHL experience, is cheap, and is still young. That's a pretty decent combination to at least try it out.

 

My honest hope is that he's given plenty of starts. Elliott is not an NHL starter. It's possible Pickard isn't either really, but we won't know until he's given a solid try. That's really how I feel about Stolarz and even Lyon for that matter. Let's throw everything to the wall and see what sticks. 

Edited by elmatus
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1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

This is a fun discussion and I plan to reply to some of your other thoughts soon, but I very quickly wanted to reply to this one with my own POV which is this:  At least we have options.  Rayzor, Boucher, Leighton and Little (as much affection as I have for some of those guys) were all desperate acquisitions.  Add to that a lot of bad ideas (Bryz, Roman) and mediocre starters we settled for (Biron, Esche, Hackett) And not for nuthin, but to me the big difference now is that we know we have AT LEAST Hart coming along and we know from limited exposure that he might actually be something.   That makes all this duct tape and bailing wire B.S. a lot more believable as simply a stop gap.  

 

You're absolutely right. 

 

I would add that we have A LOT more than Hart. He's just the most touted, but there is Sandstrom and Ustimenko, as well as a few others. As they said in the TSN pipeline rankings (I posted the video in the Phantoms thread), who would have guessed that 7th rounder Lundqvist would become the franchise goalie he has? Or 8th rounder Rinne? 3rd rounder Quick? 4th rounder Holtby?

 

In the end, I don't really care which one of our goalies emerges - I just hope that we find ONE stable starter who can be THE GUY for years. To that end, I think Hextall has set up this team well. 

 

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1 minute ago, elmatus said:

I like the Pickard pick up. He's still young. He's never played for a team as skilled as this year's Flyers are likely to be. He should be given a shot. Again, it's not like he has big shoes to fill.

 

Also, @brelic is right in saying that we should be looking for someone who can play another 3-4 years if need be. We can't rely on Hart for this season or even next season. If that happens, amazing, but it's not a likely scenario. If it takes him another two years to develop in the AHL, then that's what it takes.

 

In the meantime, Elliott has overstayed his welcome. Neuvirth cannot be asked to play a season of NHL hockey. Stolarz and Lyon are likely back ups at best (though they're quite possibly both better than Elliott). 

 

Is Pickard a guy that could take the reins for a couple years while Hart figured things out? Who knows? All I know is he has NHL experience, is cheap, and is still young. That's a pretty decent combination to at least try it out.

 

My honest hope is that he's given plenty of starts. Elliott is not an NHL starter. It's possible Pickard isn't either really, but we won't know until he's given a solid try. That's really how I feel about Stolarz and even Lyon for that matter. Let's throw everything to the wall and see what sticks. 

 

-I don't Think Elliott has overstayed his welcome.  I think he got hurt or he'd be the clear #1 with no issues.  They like him and he was serviceable on a 2 year deal.  It's just that Hakstol was a moron with his goalies... again.

 

-The big thing with Hart is physical  He's still a little slight and isn't used to the work load or abuse he'll have to endure in the NHL and the AHL is the best place to do all of that.  This may be a small point, but I really don't think it's as much about him "working things out" as it is about him just experiencing things and knowing what to expect.  

 

-Pickard has 50 games in a mediocre  (on a bad team) season and is younger than Elliott, but otherwise, there's nothing about him that really suggests he's ready to take any reigns for anything.  

 

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5 minutes ago, elmatus said:

My honest hope is that he's given plenty of starts. Elliott is not an NHL starter. It's possible Pickard isn't either really, but we won't know until he's given a solid try.

 

Pseudo quiz!

 

Which goalie is Elliott and which is Pickard?

 

Goalie 1 - First 3 NHL seasons (23-26 years old)

2.77, .902

2.57, .909

3.19, .894

 

Goalie 2 - First 3 NHL seasons (22-25 years old)

2.35, .932

2.56, .922

2.98, .904

 

Goalie 1 is Elliott and Goalie 2 is Pickard, and at least based on those numbers, I'd say Pickard has earned a chance to prove himself. 

 

And what better place than Philly?? Haha

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6 minutes ago, King Knut said:

-Pickard has 50 games in a mediocre  (on a bad team) season and is younger than Elliott, but otherwise, there's nothing about him that really suggests he's ready to take any reigns for anything.  

 

Elliott is a career 2.45, .913 (414 GP) and Pickard is a career 2.78, .913 (87 GP).

 

Yes, there's a huge difference in GP, but in the end, they're very similar and Pickard at least has youth and upside potential whereas Elliott is what he is at this point. The best case scenario is that one of the two reliably plays at a #1 level, and the other can provide solid, reliable goaltending in a backup role. 

 

I'm now wondering if Stolarz has had any kind of discomfort in his leg that gave Hextall reason to claim a goalie. I mean, how can your goalies ever get NHL experience if you never let them get NHL experience? I thought he looked OK in the limited games he's played. 

 

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2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I don't Think Elliott has overstayed his welcome.

 

We've talked about this before and how we will have to agree to disagree on Elliott. I do think you're right in that Hakstol's use of him is part of the problem, but I don't think his struggles can be explained by just that. 

 

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

-Pickard has 50 games in a mediocre  (on a bad team) season and is younger than Elliott, but otherwise, there's nothing about him that really suggests he's ready to take any reigns for anything.  

 

This does go back to my first point really and our difference of opinion on Elliott. He's the no.1 guy by virtue of a lack of options, and that's about it. I don't know that Pickard is any better, but he doesn't have to be amazing to be better either. The bar is pretty low in my estimation (and it's entirely possible Hexy feels the same way, which would explain the waiver pick up). 

 

Again though, I understand you have a different view of Elliott, and that's fair. I think our difference in opinion in that regard fairly easily explains the rest.

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Just now, brelic said:

Elliott is a career 2.45, .913 (414 GP) and Pickard is a career 2.78, .913 (87 GP).

 

 

Also, Elliott played split time for a very defensively sound and solid team for five years in STL. Pickard played for a bottom dweller with a garbage d-corps in COL. That stuff matters. A lot.

 

I'm not sure Vasilevsky is a Vezina candidate playing for Ottawa instead of Tampa.

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31 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I'm really starting to feel like Neuvirth will be the one waived, which they can't do until he's healthy. 

 

So, do you reassign Weise and go with 3 goalies until Neuvirth is healthy, then waive him plus one goalie? 

 

Or do you just waive Stolarz now? 

 

In all honesty, Pickard has the edge not only in NHL games played, but also being around the NHL for 4 seasons. His AHL numbers are also better. 

 

Depending on how the season goes, you could go with Pickard/Sandstrom next year, or even Elliott/Pickard if it works out.

 

We all hope Hart is ready sooner rather than later, but I'm thinking it will be 2 AHL seasons, with possible spot duty on the Flyers here and there before he's truly ready. That's just the overwhelming reality of goaltender development. 

 

Quick was 22/23 when he played regularly for the Kings, and hit star status at 25/26.

Rinne was 26/27 when he became a regular, peaked at 28/29.

Holtby played 14 games at 21/22, then 7 games at 22/23, and became a regular at 23/24. Peaked at 27/28.

Jones played 19 games at 23/24, 15 games at 24/25, and became a regular at 25/26.

Bernier played 4 games at 19/20, 0 games at 20/21, 15 games  at 21/22, and never really put it together at the NHL level.

Schneider played 8 games at 22/23, 2 games at 23/24, and became a regular at 24/25.

 

The smart move for Hextall is to plan for another 2-4 year bridge to Hart with some wiggle room in case the best case scenario works out. 

 

It's kind of a mess right now. But as a Flyers fan, I don't really know any different.

 

Neuvirth seems like a good guy and his lot in this league has been unfortunate, and he could come in handy for someone at some point this year, but I don't think the Flyers can worry about him anymore, so I agree on waiving him.  They have to be able to make the moves they need to and they can't just wait around for him to hurt himself again.  It's a shame he can't put his contract on hold for a season like a college football player and red shirt himself in order to get his body a little more on track.  He's been constantly recovering and returning from something his whole career. Maybe if he took a whole year off and just got right, he might be able to even be a backup again.

 

I assume they're going to waive Stolarz, but your idea with waiving Weise is exactly what I've been pushing for all summer.  Just carry 3 goalies, 1F and 1D on the 23 man roster.  I said it should be Neuvirth so you can burn up those hard practice minutes and give Elliott more a fighting chance to stay healthy, but the theory works out no matter who your 3rd is.  But I'm guessing they probably try to sneak Stolarz back through at the last minute, hoping everyone else has sorted themselves out by then.  The fact that no one took Pickard before we did is promising for sneaking Stolarz or Lyon through waivers IMHO.

 

I agree whole heartedly on this 2 AHL seasons with occasional fill in duty for the Flyers.  If Hart looks half decent and the Flyers run into the situation they did last year, there's no way I wouldn't rather see Hart in the NHL than see them trade for another Mrazek disaster.

 

I see what you're saying about the 2-4 seasons, but I don't think it's going to take that long.  He needs to fill out a little and get hit a little, but his head seems to be incredibly sharp and his technique and puck tracking are all kinds of awesome.  I kinda think Hart will wrestle the role from whoever by the end of next season.  

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4 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Also, Elliott played split time for a very defensively sound and solid team for five years in STL. Pickard played for a bottom dweller with a garbage d-corps in COL. That stuff matters. A lot.

 

I'm not sure Vasilevsky is a Vezina candidate playing for Ottawa instead of Tampa.

 

Good point. 

 

Again, Pickard compares very favourably to Vasilievskiy. I'm not saying he is on the same level or that he will ever be, but through each of their first 3 seasons, they played almost an identical number of games (CP 86, AV 90) and in similar increments (CP 16-20-50, AV, 16-24-50).

 

Pickard had a .914 on 2511 shots. 

AV had a .915 on 2541 shots. 

 

Pickard was on crappy defensive teams (Colorado Goals Against rankings - 21st, 23rd, 30th)

AV was on good to great defensive teams (TB Goals Against rankings - 11th, 4th, 16th).

 

I dunno, he could definitely amount to something. 

 

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14 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Neuvirth seems like a good guy and his lot in this league has been unfortunate, and he could come in handy for someone at some point this year, but I don't think the Flyers can worry about him anymore, so I agree on waiving him.  They have to be able to make the moves they need to and they can't just wait around for him to hurt himself again.  It's a shame he can't put his contract on hold for a season like a college football player and red shirt himself in order to get his body a little more on track.  He's been constantly recovering and returning from something his whole career. Maybe if he took a whole year off and just got right, he might be able to even be a backup again.

 

I agree. I wish it were different for Neuvirth, because he's the most talented goalie we have. But it has honestly become both a distraction and a source of instability for the team - and it is disruptive down the line to the Phantoms and Royals. I know those lower leagues are there for that purpose - to develop players that will eventually leave - but it's still more disruption than it needs to be.

 

14 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I assume they're going to waive Stolarz, but your idea with waiving Weise is exactly what I've been pushing for all summer.  Just carry 3 goalies, 1F and 1D on the 23 man roster.  I said it should be Neuvirth so you can burn up those hard practice minutes and give Elliott more a fighting chance to stay healthy, but the theory works out no matter who your 3rd is.  But I'm guessing they probably try to sneak Stolarz back through at the last minute, hoping everyone else has sorted themselves out by then.  The fact that no one took Pickard before we did is promising for sneaking Stolarz or Lyon through waivers IMHO.

 

They could definitely reassign Weise and run with 3 goalies until they feel confident that both Elliott and Pickard are healthy and capable. Then I assume they'd waive Stolarz and recall a 14th forward?

 

14 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I agree whole heartedly on this 2 AHL seasons with occasional fill in duty for the Flyers.  If Hart looks half decent and the Flyers run into the situation they did last year, there's no way I wouldn't rather see Hart in the NHL than see them trade for another Mrazek disaster.

 

Totally agree. And even if Mrazek had kind of worked out, it's still crappy that Hextall has to expend resources to go fetch a goalie elsewhere because we don't have any in the organization that can step up. Last year was kind of exceptional, though... Stolarz, Elliott, AND Neuvirth all injured at the same time. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I see what you're saying about the 2-4 seasons, but I don't think it's going to take that long.  He needs to fill out a little and get hit a little, but his head seems to be incredibly sharp and his technique and puck tracking are all kinds of awesome.  I kinda think Hart will wrestle the role from whoever by the end of next season.  

 

I hope that Hart has that kind of development cycle, and steals that job really soon. I really do. But it's still smart to plan in case that doesn't happen, which is what the overwhelming odds dictate. 

 

Remember - Hextall is an extremely cautious guy. 

 

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22 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

We've talked about this before and how we will have to agree to disagree on Elliott. I do think you're right in that Hakstol's use of him is part of the problem, but I don't think his struggles can be explained by just that. 

 

 

I think I just meant in terms of the team's POV of him.  As far as the rest of us go, we can be done with him if we want, but until there's a viable replacement at a similar skill level, I'm not sure what else to do.

 

Maybe Pickard is that guy?  but it seems strange that the Maple leafs would have gone with Sparks over Pickard given how little Sparks has played in his career and how similar their ages and salaries are.  

 

I don't know that I think our views of Elliott are that different, it's just what you said though, there aren't many options.  My willingness to accept him (if he's healthy) is just that I don't see the point in investing in a major superior option this year (the first year they realistically could have) when Hart is not a minor league pro working his way up. 

 

Maybe Pickard can be that semi-reliable but nothing amazing work horse that doesn't require losing anything to get. - That dream of a mediocre goalie to get us to the Hart future.  I have no problems with that if it can happen.  I'd applaud it.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Good point. 

 

Again, Pickard compares very favourably to Vasilievskiy. I'm not saying he is on the same level or that he will ever be, but through each of their first 3 seasons, they played almost an identical number of games (CP 86, AV 90) and in similar increments (CP 16-20-50, AV, 16-24-50).

 

Pickard had a .914 on 2511 shots. 

AV had a .915 on 2541 shots. 

 

Pickard was on crappy defensive teams (Colorado Goals Against rankings - 21st, 23rd, 30th)

AV was on good to great defensive teams (TB Goals Against rankings - 11th, 4th, 16th).

 

I dunno, he could definitely amount to something. 

 

 

I'd love to think so, but Pickard was also just waived in favor of Sparks who has much worse numbers in limited NHL exposure and almost no NHL track record at all and is only a year younger and costs about the same.  I have to admit that I have never seen Pickard play that I know of, but the fact that the Leafs waived him makes me at least a little skeptical.  

 

WOULD LOVE for him to shut me up though.

Edited by King Knut

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2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'd love to think so, but Pickard was also just waived in favor of Sparks who has much worse numbers in limited NHL exposure and almost no NHL track record at all and is only a year younger and costs about the same.  I have to admit that I have never seen Pickard play that I know of, but the fact that the Leafs waived him makes me at least a little skeptical.  

 

WOULD LOVE for him to shut me up though.

 

Haha, I know what you mean - it seems pretty unlikely that Pickard is some hidden gem, but when I compared his numbers to AV, I thought, hey, you never know. 

 

Sparks is a 7th round pick and a year younger than Pickard who was a 2nd round pick. 

 

The only thing I can see is that Sparks has been with the Leafs organization for 6 years and has really dominated at the AHL level. They didn't have much invested in Pickard, and his AHL numbers were not as strong.

 

 

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1 hour ago, King Knut said:

Roman

 

 

Sorry crazy?? Hell yes.

 

But dude stopped the damn puck.

 

Was erratic and spastic doing it yes. But so was Hasek.

 

He put up awesome numbers we would kill for today.

 

But he got zero goal support back in the day.

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    • 3
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      Fixed.
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