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Fargocase

HOW to tank?

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Personally, I think the old tanking for a high pick is a foolish fantasy.  It's actually very difficult for a team to be Edm/Buff/NYI/FLA bad.   It takes years to rebuild a team and even with numerous very high Picks, it often doesn't work.   Also factor in the Draft Lottery.   Even if you do have the worst record good chance you won't get 1st Overall.  And will there even be a Franchise guy available that year?

 

BUT, let's say you're willing to risk the franchise's health and accept losing a huge amount of money when the league's #1 fans dessert the team in droves. 

 

HOW can the Wild tank, starting now?  

 

I'll start - trade Big E. Staal ASAP.  I'm sure he's reestablished himself after the last two years.   Even as a rental he'd have value.

 

Trade your mid-career guys?   Zooker, Coyle, Nino, Brodin, Spurgie?  Dumba?  Even though it's doubtful you'd get a fair return?

Edited by Fargocase

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If they keep playing like they did the other night, you may not need to trade anyone. They'll implode by themselves just fine.

 

But for the sake of conversation, I'll bite.

 

But do you want to do it realistically? Or the EA Sports way?

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To tank just keep playing mundane hockey and keep your slow, aging vets on the ice more... Especially on special teams (like they're doing) while keeping hungry players who really have something to offer either on the bench or along the boards away from high-potential scoring opportunities.

 

Stick with playing the top two lines 'a lot' so the bottom two lines don't develop into anything but mush.

 

Acquire any player that's already 'used up' so they can retire here. Don't forget to pay them twice as much as they're worth and never bench them if they turn into slugs.

 

Crud, who am I kidding? They've already done that and they still made the playoffs... Which in itself shows that the younger characters on this team did step-up and make a big enough impact to contribute... And once they got to the playoffs it was put back in the hands of aging vets who got most the ice time.

 

What surfaced out of all that was the Wild actually did have talent potential but they didn't use it correctly.

 

Somewhere there's a cloud handcuffing this team and after three different head coaches, different GM's, a couple hundred different players thrown at the roster the past half-dozen years and you're left with two things that haven't changed. Craig Leipold and Mikko Koivu. When it's all said and done the Wild aren't any closer to advancing in the playoffs passed the first or second round during that same time frame and the attitude and overall team character still remains as bland as dried toast. The personality of this team has been stagnant that whole time too. All talk - no action.

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1 hour ago, rottenrefs said:

To tank just keep playing mundane hockey and keep your slow, aging vets on the ice more... Especially on special teams (like they're doing) while keeping hungry players who really have something to offer either on the bench or along the boards away from high-potential scoring opportunities.

 

Stick with playing the top two lines 'a lot' so the bottom two lines don't develop into anything but mush.

 

Acquire any player that's already 'used up' so they can retire here. Don't forget to pay them twice as much as they're worth and never bench them if they turn into slugs.

 

Crud, who am I kidding? They've already done that and they still made the playoffs... Which in itself shows that the younger characters on this team did step-up and make a big enough impact to contribute... And once they got to the playoffs it was put back in the hands of aging vets who got most the ice time.

 

What surfaced out of all that was the Wild actually did have talent potential but they didn't use it correctly.

 

Somewhere there's a cloud handcuffing this team and after three different head coaches, different GM's, a couple hundred different players thrown at the roster the past half-dozen years and you're left with two things that haven't changed. Craig Leipold and Mikko Koivu. When it's all said and done the Wild aren't any closer to advancing in the playoffs passed the first or second round during that same time frame and the attitude and overall team character still remains as bland as dried toast. The personality of this team has been stagnant that whole time too. All talk - no action.

 

Well, if you really want to get into it, the ownership changed from Naegle to Leipold. The one thing that hasn't changed is...Mikko Koivu.

 

Now I'm going to be labeled a dead horse beater or something like that...

Edited by IllaZilla

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1 hour ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Well, if you really want to get into it, the ownership changed from Naegle to Leipold. The one thing that hasn't changed is...Mikko Koivu.

 

Now I'm going to be labeled a dead horse beater or something like that...

I've said as much before too about Koivu, but with Naegle he just wasn't willing to spend. Since Naegle though and with Leipold the team is about as ordinary as doing laundry.

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14 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

If they keep playing like they did the other night, you may not need to trade anyone. They'll implode by themselves just fine.

 

But for the sake of conversation, I'll bite.

 

But do you want to do it realistically? Or the EA Sports way?

 

I was thinking something that could actually happen.  Not stupid chit like just trade zucker for the league #1.

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52 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

 

I was thinking something that could actually happen.  Not stupid chit like just trade zucker for the league #1.

 

Ok, I agree with your choice of moving Staal. He's the only vet that's remotely movable (good stats, reasonable contract, limited NMC to 10 teams). But I'd do it closer to the first of the year than right now. See if he can keep up the production and get a bit more for him. But do it before the floodgates open at the trade deadline and dilute your return. And I'm assuming you'd ask for picks/prospects for him, not another established NHL player coming back?

 

I might look at moving Coyle. He's got two years left on a $3M/yr contract. If he puts up 60+ points this season, he's going to demand $5M+ like everyone else on this team. His promise and reasonable salary might entice a team to give up a bit more for him.

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But wouldn't keeping Big E. garner more points?  Move your team farther away from a very high Pick.

 

I do think Coyle does have decent value around the league.   But apparently Fenton couldn't find any takers this off season.  I think it was clear they'd trade either Coyle or Nino for the right price.  And if you're going to rebuild, it's a given you're looking for Picks and younger players.

 

Even if you get rid of several important players for the Wild, this isn't a horrible orster, they're still going towin too many games to sink into the, say, the Bottom 5 IMO.

 

And definitely fire BB.  The guy has proven he knows how to get teams to win regular season games, he wouldn't help any tanking scheme.

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1 hour ago, Fargocase said:

But wouldn't keeping Big E. garner more points?  Move your team farther away from a very high Pick.

 

I do think Coyle does have decent value around the league.   But apparently Fenton couldn't find any takers this off season.  I think it was clear they'd trade either Coyle or Nino for the right price.  And if you're going to rebuild, it's a given you're looking for Picks and younger players.

 

Even if you get rid of several important players for the Wild, this isn't a horrible orster, they're still going towin too many games to sink into the, say, the Bottom 5 IMO.

 

And definitely fire BB.  The guy has proven he knows how to get teams to win regular season games, he wouldn't help any tanking scheme.

 

I was agreeing that Staal should be traded, as well as Coyle. You could probably move Granlund too. Yeah he has a $5M cap hit, but he hit 60+ points the last two seasons. He'd bring a decent return.

 

They probably could have moved Coyle in the off season if he hadn't been hurt and turned in a 45 point performance. If he scored 60 like the year before, I bet Fenton could have moved him. I heard too many GM's were scared off by Nino's $5M cap hit.

 

Yup, change the coach. Get someone really young who hasn't accomplished anything so the vets won't listen to him or someone really crazy like Mike Keenan whom the vets will tune out before he even sets foot in the X...

 

 

Edited by IllaZilla

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3 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

How to tank? Send a letter to my friends on Kingsway Ave in Edmonton. They're experts.

How to rebuild? Burn their address after you send that first letter.

 

 

😆  Great idea - go hire the previous clowns that ran the Edm or Van organizations!  They know how to puck it up!  Hey!  I think Garth Snow is available!!!   

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On 10/6/2018 at 8:45 AM, sweetshot said:

Another thing that hasn't changed...The fans.

The team hasn’t changed so why should the fans? The Wild do it ass backwards. They tank in the playoffs not the regular season 

Edited by Jimtown guy

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I thought maybe all the people who advocated for tanking and a rebuild would offer up some ideas.  Other than Illa looks like most people want to be there but don't have any ideas on how to get there.  Here are my steps to tearing it down.  First, obviously have a fire sale.

 

1.  Tell Big E. that he's not in the team's future plans.   He's an UFA next year.  Tell him to put his agent to work.  Simultaneously start actively shopping him.  Since he's getting old and will want decent money with some term his value is reduced but take whatever you can get.

2.  Give away Nino and Coyle to the first team that offers up a 1st rounder.  Maybe get a couple mid round 1st's.

2.  Same for Brodin.  Take whatever is offered.

3.  Trade Spurgie ASAP.   The little guy is little but he's a very good hockey player, there has to be GM's who would happily add him to their Blue Line.  1st rounder and a prospect.

4.  Take offers on MiG.  Obviously the team's best offensive force but don't give him away.

5.  Trade BB's contract if possible.  Don't think its ever been done, but I've never heard of a rule forbidding it.  Or buy him out...

6.  Give the #1 sheep a 10% rebate effective next season for all current season ticket money.

 

Everything available except for Dumba and Zucker due to their long term contracts and the old guys we're stuck with long term.

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I’m not a GM so I have no clue how you would do it. Tough when Parise and Suter are on the books for what seems like the next 50 years still. 

Edited by Jimtown guy
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On 10/5/2018 at 12:07 PM, Fargocase said:

Personally, I think the old tanking for a high pick is a foolish fantasy.  It's actually very difficult for a team to be Edm/Buff/NYI/FLA bad.   It takes years to rebuild a team and even with numerous very high Picks, it often doesn't work.   Also factor in the Draft Lottery.   Even if you do have the worst record good chance you won't get 1st Overall.  And will there even be a Franchise guy available that year?

 

BUT, let's say you're willing to risk the franchise's health and accept losing a huge amount of money when the league's #1 fans dessert the team in droves. 

 

HOW can the Wild tank, starting now?  

 

I'll start - trade Big E. Staal ASAP.  I'm sure he's reestablished himself after the last two years.   Even as a rental he'd have value.

 

Trade your mid-career guys?   Zooker, Coyle, Nino, Brodin, Spurgie?  Dumba?  Even though it's doubtful you'd get a fair return?

 

The problem is when you trade the mid-career guys, as you put it, who are you trading them for, and what are you getting back in return? If you had made some moves over the summer, that would have been a successful idea. Right now, teams are up against the cap, or are spending to their own internal budget (Carolina, NJ, etc.). I know you want to get something in return for those guys, and right now they are a very good team, but not a good enough team to make a Cup run. A re-tool is needed, I agree, but it's hard to trade out big contracts when other teams don't really have the money to fit them into their salary structure.

 

If they struggle again this postseason, look for Fenton to make some moves this summer. 

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2 hours ago, Jimtown guy said:

I’m not a GM so I have no clue how you would do it. Tough when Parise and Suter are on the books for what seems like the next 50 years still. 

 

But like Fargo said, there are still pieces that can be moved. And who knows, if the team tanks badly enough for a couple of seasons, maybe Parise and Suter ask to be traded...Doubtful, but hope springs eternal...🙏

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2 hours ago, TooMuchBeard said:

 

The problem is when you trade the mid-career guys, as you put it, who are you trading them for, and what are you getting back in return? If you had made some moves over the summer, that would have been a successful idea. Right now, teams are up against the cap, or are spending to their own internal budget (Carolina, NJ, etc.). I know you want to get something in return for those guys, and right now they are a very good team, but not a good enough team to make a Cup run. A re-tool is needed, I agree, but it's hard to trade out big contracts when other teams don't really have the money to fit them into their salary structure.

 

If they struggle again this postseason, look for Fenton to make some moves this summer. 

 

 I think this is ultimately what is going to happen. If they were going to make trades this past summer, they should have done it at the draft. If the team is out of playoff contention in March (or earlier), I can see them moving Staal. Some Playoff bound team could use his talents.

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2 hours ago, TooMuchBeard said:

 right now they are a very good team, but not a good enough team to make a Cup run. 

 

If they struggle again this postseason,....

 

No chit they're not a Cup Contender.   Struggle in the post season?  Right now the post season looks like a wet dream.  First two games would have been blow outs if Doobie hadn't stood on his head.  And one thing I think we can count on is no way in hell he can keep doing that for 60+ games.  Is this really a "good team"? First two games they definitely were far from good.

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5 hours ago, TooMuchBeard said:

 

The problem is when you trade the mid-career guys, as you put it, who are you trading them for, and what are you getting back in return? If you had made some moves over the summer, that would have been a successful idea. Right now, teams are up against the cap, or are spending to their own internal budget (Carolina, NJ, etc.). I know you want to get something in return for those guys, and right now they are a very good team, but not a good enough team to make a Cup run. A re-tool is needed, I agree, but it's hard to trade out big contracts when other teams don't really have the money to fit them into their salary structure.

 

If they struggle again this postseason, look for Fenton to make some moves this summer. 

Trading mid-career guys means the team is left with no core to build to (except the old vets) which is something many vying to tank overlook.

The mid-career guys were in-part developed with and/or among the older vets who already proved they couldn't help properly develop (those mid-career guys); who plateaued just like their mentoring vets.

 

= vicious cycle = repeated fail = insanity

 

It's almost impossible to imagine this club knowing what to do with very high draft picks if they can't even scout two mid-range draft prospects and continually pick the 'safe bet' (wrong choice) while never finding a 'diamond in the rough' who when they do they trade or dump them for little or nothing.

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11 hours ago, Jimtown guy said:

The team hasn’t changed so why should the fans? The Wild do it ass backwards. They tank in the playoffs not the regular season 

For the most part, we put up with all the B.S. The problem is not just The Wild--its the same with every professional team in this market--they almost never do much beyond the regular season. The Vikings are the most successful franchise we have here year in and year out and they haven't even been to the Super Bowl in over 40 years. When it comes to our pro teams, we the fans, along with the media, are the common denominators. Maybe we have to change our attitude/behavior towards consistently poor/average performance. Maybe its time to stop buying tickets to go see continually mediocre/moderately successful teams. The Twins attendance has dropped considerably over the past 5 seasons or so--I guess we'll see if that has any affect. IMO we have proven we are a viable market, so I don't think teams are just going to bail anymore if the stadium is half empty. The media has a responsibility as well--maybe they need to start asking tougher questions of these owners and their players and put them on the spot once in a while. Except for an individual or two, the media just throws softballs at these guys.

How does Boston do it? They always have 2, 3, sometimes even 4 good teams at the same time(MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL).

 

Or is it simply the $$$. Owners in this market just don't have the local TV/Radio revenue to truly compete with the bigger markets. I read somewhere about 25 years ago or so that the local TV/Radio revenue for MLB in NYC was 10 times what it is here. $50M/year. Here it was $5M/year.

I don't have any answers, I just know we share some of the responsibility for allowing the mediocrity of our sports teams to consistently exist.

 

 

 

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Two games in, please?

Fenton would best spend his time preparing for the Seattle (Sockeyes? Really, another fish out of water on ice?) expansion draft. Losing (dealing away, whatever) Tuch and Huala to the Golden Knights might have cost Fletcher his chance for a second term as Wild GM. Yeah, we had to protect Zucker and Dumba, I get it, but Tuch, although he's injured now, as I understand it, seemed to fly under our radar. He's big, can skate and has nice hands, something we're hearing about but still waiting to see from Greenway. Huala flat-out hauls ass, though he likely would have wound up as fourth-line center/penalty killer under Fletcher's leadership.

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Hopefully we finally get lucky when Mikko leaves and we gain a natural born leader from some where. No idea who that is or could be but do not think that person is on this team right now. Another year or 2 is going to be painful but so have the last 10 years. Fenton needs lots of luck and or some magic up his sleeves. IMO He has 2 years to pull it off or he should be gone along with Bruce. I say try and trade everyone they possible can right now but not going to change much while Mikko keeps wearing the C, playing 2C, and PP. Without a doubt he is the root of the problem and been that way 3 to 5 years minimum.

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I like the speculation, although I don't see it happening as long as Liepold is the owner. #1 on his mind is to maintain the revenue. IMO as long as that happens, he'll keep the core of this team intact. If revenue dips for an extended period, he'll sell.

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