HOW to tank?

[EJ0226]

Wild won't need to do anything to tank. They are doing a fantastic job of it now! And in all honesty they really should be getting ready to go rebuild in a year or two. That way Fletchers NMC/NTC contracts will be gone and then a team can be built from the ground up. In 6 more years we will see Zucker, Dumba and other guys on the wrong side of their career anyways so we will have to be focusing on rebuilding.

[sweetshot]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:57 AM, sweetshot said:

I like the speculation, although I don't see it happening as long as Liepold is the owner. #1 on his mind is to maintain the revenue. IMO as long as that happens, he'll keep the core of this team intact. If revenue dips for an extended period, he'll sell.

Wrong. He's in it for the long term.

[musky]

isles got towes,bellows and ho-sang all in the minors that could step right in and play,but for some reason lou wants 2 forth lines/TANK

[Hockey-78]

To answer the question: let the veterans (Koivu, Suter, Parise, even Staal although he has attitude and skills but his wheels are starting to fall off) munch as much ice time as they want. Especially on the PP and OT.

[Fargocase]

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:56 AM, Hockey-78 said:

To answer the question: let the veterans (Koivu, Suter, Parise, even Staal although he has attitude and skills but his wheels are starting to fall off) munch as much ice time as they want. Especially on the PP and OT.

 

That's what has been happening last couple of years and we're seeing record setting 100 point seasons.   Tough to tank when you're making the Playoffs. 

[Hockey-78]

@Fargocase Relax, my statement was more or less tongue in cheek.

 

Record setting seasons ended up in 1st round exits so it was worse than to tank really.

[wild.source]

On 10/7/2018 at 9:23 AM, Fargocase said:

I thought maybe all the people who advocated for tanking and a rebuild would offer up some ideas.  Other than Illa looks like most people want to be there but don't have any ideas on how to get there.  Here are my steps to tearing it down.  First, obviously have a fire sale.

 

1.  Tell Big E. that he's not in the team's future plans.   He's an UFA next year.  Tell him to put his agent to work.  Simultaneously start actively shopping him.  Since he's getting old and will want decent money with some term his value is reduced but take whatever you can get.

2.  Give away Nino and Coyle to the first team that offers up a 1st rounder.  Maybe get a couple mid round 1st's.

2.  Same for Brodin.  Take whatever is offered.

3.  Trade Spurgie ASAP.   The little guy is little but he's a very good hockey player, there has to be GM's who would happily add him to their Blue Line.  1st rounder and a prospect.

4.  Take offers on MiG.  Obviously the team's best offensive force but don't give him away.

5.  Trade BB's contract if possible.  Don't think its ever been done, but I've never heard of a rule forbidding it.  Or buy him out...

6.  Give the #1 sheep a 10% rebate effective next season for all current season ticket money.

 

Everything available except for Dumba and Zucker due to their long term contracts and the old guys we're stuck with long term.

We are talking about getting rid of our good players here...Leipold doesn't want a full rebuild.

[Fargocase]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:53 AM, DevinWieser said:

We are talking about getting rid of our good players here...Leipold doesn't want a full rebuild.

 

Read the first post to start the thread...  This is for the Haters who have bidtdched for years they want a re-build, this team sucks, it should tank for a high draft pick.

 

I'm asking them to back up their bidtching.  What exactly would they do to make their tank fantasy actually happen if they were GM.     Illa Zilla answered but the 20/20 hindsight GMs never posted any ideas.  They just bidtch, not answer.  No insight, minimal knowledge, 20/20 hindsight...

[IllaZilla]

30 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

 

Read the first post to start the thread...  This is for the Haters who have bidtdched for years they want a re-build, this team sucks, it should tank for a high draft pick.

 

I'm asking them to back up their bidtching.  What exactly would they do to make their tank fantasy actually happen if they were GM.     Illa Zilla answered but the 20/20 hindsight GMs never posted any ideas.  They just bidtch, not answer.  No insight, minimal knowledge, 20/20 hindsight...

 

I kind of thought it would be a fun exercise in “what if”. I think your last post was probably the most realistic. You’re going to  have to give up big players to get high draft picks. If the current players aren’t getting it done, why hang on to them?

[rottenrefs]

40 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

 

Read the first post to start the thread...  This is for the Haters who have bidtdched for years they want a re-build, this team sucks, it should tank for a high draft pick.

 

I'm asking them to back up their bidtching.  What exactly would they do to make their tank fantasy actually happen if they were GM.     Illa Zilla answered but the 20/20 hindsight GMs never posted any ideas.  They just bidtch, not answer.  No insight, minimal knowledge, 20/20 hindsight...

True to form you're off the mark again. Only a small number of "Wild fans" wanted the team to rebuild this year upon the firing of Fletcher. Where you're mostly off the mark is the Wild haters you fondly fall all over yourself with while constantly bidtching and complaining (baiting people) there's hardly anyone known to this board or the old board who called for a rebuild in recent years.

 

What the majority of fans were calling for was to hold the veterans accountable, to stop giving certain players so much ice time when they didn't deserve it, and for coaches (whoever is behind all the stupid line combinations) to play to players strengths as opposed to making square pegs fit into round holes.

 

Of which, you often agreed to and likewise strongly advocated. 

[Fargocase]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:24 PM, rottenrefs said:

True to form you're off the mark again. Only a small number of "Wild fans" wanted the team to rebuild this year upon the firing of Fletcher. Where you're mostly off the mark is the Wild haters you fondly fall all over yourself with while constantly bidtching and complaining (baiting people) there's hardly anyone known to this board or the old board who called for a rebuild in recent years.

 

What the majority of fans were calling for was to hold the veterans accountable, to stop giving certain players so much ice time when they didn't deserve it, and for coaches (whoever is behind all the stupid line combinations) to play to players strengths as opposed to making square pegs fit into round holes.

 

Of which, you often agreed to and likewise strongly advocated. 

 

So where are your answers to the question?   Blah blah blah I suck.  Answer the question punk, no one cares about your butthurt rant against me..  

[rottenrefs]

7 hours ago, Fargocase said:

 

So where are your answers to the question?   Blah blah blah I suck.  Answer the question punk, no one cares about your butthurt rant against me..  

^ You quoted one with this whining post. (((((Yawn)))))

 

On 10/6/2018 at 7:12 AM, rottenrefs said:

To tank just keep playing mundane hockey and keep your slow, aging vets on the ice more... Especially on special teams (like they're doing) while keeping hungry players who really have something to offer either on the bench or along the boards away from high-potential scoring opportunities.

 

Stick with playing the top two lines 'a lot' so the bottom two lines don't develop into anything but mush.

 

Acquire any player that's already 'used up' so they can retire here. Don't forget to pay them twice as much as they're worth and never bench them if they turn into slugs.

 

Crud, who am I kidding? They've already done that and they still made the playoffs... Which in itself shows that the younger characters on this team did step-up and make a big enough impact to contribute... And once they got to the playoffs it was put back in the hands of aging vets who got most the ice time.

 

What surfaced out of all that was the Wild actually did have talent potential but they didn't use it correctly.

 

Somewhere there's a cloud handcuffing this team and after three different head coaches, different GM's, a couple hundred different players thrown at the roster the past half-dozen years and you're left with two things that haven't changed. Craig Leipold and Mikko Koivu. When it's all said and done the Wild aren't any closer to advancing in the playoffs passed the first or second round during that same time frame and the attitude and overall team character still remains as bland as dried toast. The personality of this team has been stagnant that whole time too. All talk - no action.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 5:01 PM, rottenrefs said:

Trading mid-career guys means the team is left with no core to build to (except the old vets) which is something many vying to tank overlook.

The mid-career guys were in-part developed with and/or among the older vets who already proved they couldn't help properly develop (those mid-career guys); who plateaued just like their mentoring vets.

 

= vicious cycle = repeated fail = insanity

 

It's almost impossible to imagine this club knowing what to do with very high draft picks if they can't even scout two mid-range draft prospects and continually pick the 'safe bet' (wrong choice) while never finding a 'diamond in the rough' who when they do they trade or dump them for little or nothing.

 

[Fargocase]

Read the top two posts by the hater, quoting himself.

 

Where is a single actual action?   Just more generic hate, hate, hate.   Everyone sucks, sucks, sucks.

 

The single actual action was "keep playing the Vets" and that's so stupid the hater had to contradict himself because it was patently, obviously stupid and incorrect.

 

Other than the generic HATE HATE HATE and endless regurgitating of 20/20 hindsight btidches that are history and unchangeable, do any posters actually have some legitimate ideas, or even possible courses of action?

 

My #1 suggestion - shop Big E.   Make the call to Wpg.   Be up front and tell him he isn't in the Wild's future plans.   Is there anywhere else he'd be willing to go.

 

Suggestion #2 - Shop MiG.  That isn't saying give him away, very possible or even likely no one will step up and offer enough, but give it a try.

 

Suggestion #3 - shop Fehr.  He's been a very solid 4th Liner and PK guy.  You'd get only a low pick but anything is better than nothing.  After watching him for a year he can clearly still contribute.

 

 

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Fargocase said:

do any posters actually have some legitimate ideas, or even possible courses of action?

 

Tanking is a fairly simple process.  Just trade away every desirable player on your roster at the trade deadline for draft picks and start icing a team of minor league call-ups. Let nature take its course. Aim for the bottom.

 

How much has your backup goalie played lately?  How about your #3 goalie? As serious contending teams push for playoff spots, it would be a great time for an AHL goalie to make their NHL debut don't you think? 

 

 

[Hockey-78]

@WordsOfWisdom Devan Dubnyk is THE tank commander.

 

I've advocated for long to give our AHL goalie prospect a look. If we now want to "tank", we let Dubnyk start every effin game as we have moronicly done for long.

 

Yeah, it's a simple process but since it's outcome can be anything I'd focus on different matters.

[EJ0226]

I think the Wild are probably in the worst spot to be in for a pro sport team. Big time contracts, some that you can't move, with no results. You got 14 players with contracts expiring in the next two seasons and some (Greenway, Spurgeon, Granlund) are key guys that will command more money.

I am in favor of a full rebuild with Fletcher gone. But it depends what Fentons real game plan is too. The other factor is that the Wild really can't do this for another 6 years when Parise and Suter are gone.

But let's look at it realistically here. Struggling players don't recover with the Wild. They get traded elsewhere and figure it out and look good. The Wild don't have issues trading struggling players even if they showed promise. We seen it with Haula, Tuch never had a shot to prove his worth, Nino, etc. So here is how I look at it.

 

Staal- If the Wild are going to try to make the Playoffs then they almost will for sure keep him. To trade him for another player to make a playoff push really doesn't make sense. You won't get a player the same caliber as him at that price. I doubt any team would trade much away considering Staals, age, contract left and his production this year. To trade for the future I don't see any team giving up much more then maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick.

 

Coyle- Interesting as I have no idea what the market is for him. My guess is if you trade for a player you are going to get a solid 3rd/4th liner guy. Nothing flashy but serviceable. I don't think you get much with a $4.2 million contract next year and his poor production this year. Draft wise probably a 3rd rounder for trade.

Zucker- Boy..... Maybe if Vegas fans and Vegas will bite big time like Minnesota Wild and fans bite on having a hometown boy on the squad we could snag a nice player or two or a good draft pick. Otherwise I think teams will worry not only about his really down production but even how he doesn't pass the eye test. I don't see other teams offering a fair value for him be it a player or draft pick.

 

Granlund- For the last 3 seasons Granlund has been in the top 3 scoring for us. He is 1 point behind Parise in points at this point for number one spot. By far our most consistent scorer. Teams would love to have a asset like him. I think we could get a good pick up or two for players or draft picks.

 

Spurgeon- Lets no kid ourselves, by far our best defensemen player we have. He's not the scoring machine but he will block pucks with his body and stand up for others even well being on the smaller end in the NHL. He seems to either improve who he is paired with or at least is able to cover their mistakes. He can score too. I can see a bunch of teams that would love him on their ice. I think he could fetch a good player maybe two or a good high draft pick.

 

Greenway- I think a few teams would be interested in a young guy with signs of talent. Him being so young and no proven yet I can't forsee teams offering much for him. A very end of the draft or AHL lifer only.

We could trade others but I can't see many teams really looking at them. Nothing of valuable trade at least. And even if we could get Parise and Suter to waive their NTC no team is crazy enough to take their contracts on unless Snow becomes a GM somewhere else again. The Wild really are stuck. To trade Spurgeon and Granlund would be pretty much saying the season is lost but we would also lose key corner stone pieces.

I am glad I am not in Fentons shoes. It's damn if you do, damn if you don't. I honestly don't think there is a turn right path. I think a rebuild move is probably a better off move but more painful now then in the long run. My guess is we either see Staal or Coyle trade, nothing major and ride with the rest.  I just can't see any trades for players for other guys cause we will probably lose way more value then we gain.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Good stuff @EJ0226

 

Lots of solid points on players.

 

I agree Minnesota is in no man's land with regards as to which direction to go for the reasons you mentioned.
And while I still would like to see the team go for the post season, I also realize that with this core as constructed, just making the playoffs will continue to be the norm.

That said, if the Wild are going to rebuild, I really would like to see them go all in to do so.
No half arsed attempts...no tweaking this or that. Just seriously move out players of value, pay some overtime to scouts and development coaches, and when you get back picks and prospects, really make those scouts and coaches earn their keep by figuring out who they can turn into viable NHL'ers, and who they can snag from the draft....even at rounds 3, 4 or later.

Other teams have proven, it CAN be done (to find good NHL talent in later rounds), IF the coaches and scouts have their wits about them.

 

As for the "Immovable" contracts, well, if the Wild trade away enough players and truly commit to a rebuild, then those 'high priced' players WILL waive their NMC's to go to a contender, unless they actually have the stomach for a rebuild.

Again...would LOVE to see Minnesota try and continue to push for the post season, but at some point, reality has to sink in.
And honestly, part of ANY real rebuild will have to include a new core behind the bench as well.

Yep. Nothing particular against BB, but he is a coach near the tail end of his career, HE is chasing a championship, and I don't see how he would have the patience, or the longevity still as a head coach, to head up a rebuild.

I'd like to start with a younger head coach, maybe a fresh face, let him stumble and bumble through with the newer players coming in...and if there is a vet or two that would like to stick around, then great.

 

I think this team peaked a few seasons ago, and it was unfortunate that they kept running into multi-time Champion Chicago almost every time.

 

But yea...either continue to go for the playoffs or do a rebuild.....no in-between please. It will only make the pain last longer.

[Antti_Laxative]

another thought from:

31 thoughts from Elliotte Friedman

 

18. With Minnesota in sell mode, would it surprise anyone if San Jose revisited Eric Fehr, who fit in very nicely with the Sharks during the 2018 playoffs?

[ClusterChuck]

@TropicalFruitGirl26 Many interesting points so I'll touch on some this way...

 

"As for the "Immovable" contracts, well, if the Wild trade away enough players and truly commit to a rebuild, then those 'high priced' players WILL waive their NMC's to go to a contender, unless they actually have the stomach for a rebuild."

Just focusing on #11 and #20. They got their big payday and the deal wouldn't have happened if both weren't signed together. They've been here long enough and wouldn't you think they'd already be willing to waive their clauses by now seeing how things are falling apart?

Parise (and his wife) wants to stay here and his competitive nature will keep him here.

Suter not so much. The 2 don't have to stay together. I picture him retiring before contract is up but he'll stay in the meantime..

 

"That said, if the Wild are going to rebuild, I really would like to see them go *ALL IN* to do so."

Last time they did that A-I...See above  

 

"Other teams have proven, it CAN be done (to find good NHL talent in later rounds), IF the coaches and scouts have their wits about them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_Wild_draft_picks

Out of curiosity I looked up the history of picks. Interesting mix of success vs when drafted. I was surprised by much of it since I'm not big on picks since I wait until I see and judge them on the Big ice.

 

"And honestly, part of ANY real rebuild will have to include a new core behind the bench as well."

I would have to think Fenton's plan doesn't include BB. Maybe 1 more season (If BB doesn't walk) Along with the plan comes a much needed NEW coaching staff and scouts. (Haven't they been doing that with the scouts already?)

 

@EJ0226 

"And even if we could get Parise and Suter to waive their NTC no team is crazy enough to take their contracts on unless Snow becomes a GM somewhere else again. The Wild really are stuck."

11+20 and CL made sure of this with those contracts, Insuring that total rebuild isn't possible. Leopold must be happy with getting Fenton and will see where it goes from there. Filled seats most nights eases any frustration on where the team is at.

 

 "To trade Spurgeon and Granlund would be pretty much saying the season is lost but we would also lose key corner stone pieces."

This^^

They are the really the only visible value that other GM's can see by this season's play.

Since the Wild can't "Blow it up" you have to have a few as you put it "corner stones". Granlund especially. I'd put Spurgeon next on the list. Keep much of this seasons youth, Greenway, Kunin, maybe Ek.

That leaves a lot of players to be looked at and dealt in a near full rebuild and what are we going to get in return? Similar deals like Nino's and hope they work out? Package deals? 4 for 2. We also need picks..

 

This will probably the hardest period in Fenton's career. 

 

[IllaZilla]

As much as it would be nice to think Parise and Suter would waive their NTC's to get out of a rebuilding project, I doubt there are any Playoff teams that have room for their $7.5M cap hits.

 

Usually teams that can handle those are teams like the Coyotes who are generally just looking to get to the salary floor...

[Math]

[dream mode='on']

 

The Coyotes, official salary dump #1, take Suter's remaining contract like they did with Pronger, Datsyuk and Hossa. 

Coyle, Eriksson Ek, Granlund and Staal are traded for picks & prospects

Kähkönen became Wild goalie #1 after total success in his development plan

We do manage to select that #1 pick that could be a franchise changer, the turning point of a new dynamic.

Still, we keep Parisé in. The cap hit sucks but I do believe that the guy is a winner, has a good attitude and can somehow be a father figure for the youngsters, sharing his experience for the best.

 

[dream mode='off']

[IllaZilla]

Dear Wild:

 

Ur doin it rong. 

[EmptyShelf]

On this snowy day, I wanted to pick up on EJs points

 

If I were Fenton, I would demand the following (since CLs former plan has clearly failed):  Trade Coyle, EEK, Zucker, Dubnyk, Staal, Spurgeon, and Brodin for as many unproven and ‘blocked’ former high draft picks, or new 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks as you can get.  Think of the Ryan Stromes, or the NN’s on Islander types if we are lucky (not them specifically, but not yet proven former high draft positions - even some that have frustrated in development, but have some unique skills that might be developed with more playing time and coaching ).  Doesn’t matter if Round 1, 2, or 3. Cycle through numerous players. (If you seek obvious ‘up and comers,’ you will not be able to get adequate value for our existing players).  The key is pushing your scouts hard - full time on the road everywhere: OHL, Minors, college FAs - no rest or fired. 

 

Trading Spurgeon and Brodin (whom cover for Suters warts), may be just enough to piss him off and get him to waive his NMC or retire early.  I would install Granlund as C, and Dumba as an A.  I would also demote Parise and Suter from leadership, and drop them down a line each (forcing them to work and earn every minute of every game, and out of leadership - time for a new nucleus).   I would never allow Parise or Suter to play with my new young core on top 2 lines (no Granlund or Dumba either) - 11 and 20 have proven to be too divisive and domineering.  

 

I would move up Sokolov, DeWar, and the other scoring prospects from OHL or Iowa Wild to second line (‘trial by fire’) and put Greenway and Granlund on line 1, and Kunin on line 2 full time with no variance. Surround them with any of these former acquired high picks or move-ups, and tank for highest draft picks this year and next, and see if any of these newcomers can stick (or show enough development to retain). I would also jettison them quickly if they don’t.  Re-sign Granlund and let both he and Dumba know their present and future role as team leaders. 

 

I would dump any any of our 4th line Folignos or Fehrs for young future grinders or mid-round picks that provide quantity vs quality (or Seeler types a year ago). 

 

I would fly to Russia multiple times over the next year and beg Kaprisov to come at his price, and show him the new influx of Russians getting time with our team. I would also move up KK (Iowa Wild goalie) as soon as Dubnyk is unloaded for whatever we can get, and install him as #2 for the balance of this year, and #1 for next.  Staylock stays around on the cheap as starter, then backup, ensuring development, as well as hoped higher draft positions.  

 

The key is to seek only developing experience of young players (on the Wild now, on Iowa Wild, or brought in former blocked or semi-frustrating but skilled former draft picks). I would play them a lot on Top 2 lines - no matter the record. I would also work in any new draft picks over this summer and next over the next two seasons on top 3 lines and push them.  I would not waste any ice time for older grinders at this point - only younger development. 

 

I would intentionally de-emphasize Suter and Parise to try to force their hand and play for multiple high draft picks over the next 2-3 years.  By year 3 or 4, we will have secured higher picks, likely some undeveloped players, and be able to flush any ‘hangers-on’ like 11 and 20, if they have any desire to be in a playoff run or on Cup team. I would wash, rinse, and repeat until I have a core that CAN compete and give us more than a first round exit, a different team culture, and I would not allow any more small group of players to control team (or have any more direct relationships with CL - the inmates can not befriend the warden). 

 

I would also delay Koivu’s return for as long as possible next year, and only clear him to play with the understanding that we are going a different direction the following year - no contract will be extended, but a nice retirement party will be offered.  Go-Away Tour, with him as C star on line 4. I would tell B.B. where we are headed - a few years of non-playoff focused development, and see if he bows out.  If so, I would also hire the best young development coach from among the NHL Assistants or Minors that I could find that proves they can both develop and coach, and will foster a winning and gritty culture on the team (not a style of play aside from grit - we want existing players skills to dictate style - if Kaprisov can’t play defense - don’t force him too be what he is not). 

 

Lastly, if I was Fenton, I would also have a candid conversation with CL and ask that he refrain from involving himself in any day-to-day coaching or personnel decisions going forward.  NO MORE back-channels with players, as we are going to treat them as players with only a coach/GM/Player relationship.  If CL does not agree to these terms, I would ask for a severance agreement before I ruin my own career and future prospect me with this defective team and culture.  I would have CL advise the fans and STHs of our new direction to bring a Cup to MN.....

 

Now, bring on the defenders of the status quo - which ain’t working!!

[IllaZilla]

A few things to consider:

 

The Seattle Expansion Draft in 2021. The Wild need to be thoughtful about the status of players because they don't want to lose another Tuch or Haula. So they need to be careful about who gets promoted and the type of contracts they get, including NTC/NMC's. Might not be a bad thing for a guy like Kaprizov to stay in Russia for another season or so...

 

If Parise and/or Suter retire, the Wild still get the $7.5M cap hit per player ($15M total) on their salary cap until 2025. That would be a large amount of dead cap space. Unless they can find a team like Arizona that is willing to take those contracts just to hit the salary floor. Or one or both of them suffer a career ending injury where the team can put them on LTIR like the Maple Leafs did with Nathan Horton...

 

They also need to be careful about how they treat the current players. Some fans are tired of the Mikko, Zach and Ryan Show. But you can't just kick players to the curb or yank the "C" off a sweater. Word will get around the league, and eventually players will not want to sign with the Wild because of a perceived disrespect for veteran players.

[Math]

36 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

If Parise and/or Suter retire, the Wild still get the $7.5M cap hit per player ($15M total) on their salary cap until 2025.

 

In the best case, we will end up with one of those contracts, and I would go for Parisé. About the LTIR, Jeff Gillooly is no more in that business I think...

 

Worst case, the salary cap is constantly increasing, which make the relative percentage of salary cap of those two decrease... A way to see the 1/5-filled glass look totally filled...

 

 

36 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

They also need to be careful about how they treat the current players. Some fans are tired of the Mikko, Zach and Ryan Show. But you can't just kick players to the curb or yank the "C" off a sweater. Word will get around the league, and eventually players will not want to sign with the Wild because of a perceived disrespect for veteran players.

 

Yes, go with the nice looking and easy way. For Koivu, just wait till the end of his contract. I don't think there's much more options in his case. Suter? Let's look in the direction of AZ, giving the fact the Coyotes' evolution will not change meanwhile. About Parisé, I still see him as a potential leader. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I have the feeling that he's one of the only guy that keeps on trying, fighting, giving the best he can under the circumstances. I dunno...