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Fargocase

HOW to tank?

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I hear you about expansion, cap hits post Suter and Parise, and about pulling Cs and As.  However, this is about running a business, wherein the current product is sub-par and in a tailspin.  Gate receipts and merchandise sales are about to take a prolonged free-fall if drastic measures are not taken. The Wild have the reputation as a ‘cushy’ franchise that takes in old re-treads and overpaid for nominal or lesser results than average.  I don’t think too many players would read much into pulling As and Cs with past and present results and wherein the Wild is cap-wise and personnel-wise with these old millstones for the next six years. League players also are certainly aware of how well players jettisoned by Wild and the Core have played since they left.  

 

It is a unique situation that is very hard to extricate ourselves from without drastic measures.  Meanwhile, we have all witnessed the sabotage and insubordination 20 and 11 have brought to the team.  I am sure players around the league were incredulous when these two hired their own PP coach without coach or team approval. My guess is that if this ‘mosaic of past facts’ was brought to the attention of players privately but expansively in talks, coupled with obvious shortfall of results in playoffs, there would be a better understanding of why the new direction and drastic actions are necessary.  This is a full rebuild with limited options.  Drastic measures are necessary.  

 

Lastly, I am under the understanding that cap hits and base salaries of 11 and 20 start to fall quickly in the next 2-4 years by design.  Do you know something different?  Besides, why do 9, 11, and 20 have any history that suggests they should be treated like others that have achieved?  They have collected way ‘above market’ monies relative to playoff and team performance and created a very bad team culture.  Players that have played this team surely know this, and if free agents, probably wouldn’t hold this emergency personnel handling to ‘right the ship’ against Fenton.  9, 11 and 20 simply don’t deserve better - probably in the opinions of many players. 

 

I would take/make this bet, as the situation calls for it.  How many other tandem major signings in the last 20 years have delivered less results and more team movement and culture erosion (to appease 3 players)?  Do you think any proven players were disgusted with the contract Koivu received, given his past and future performance?  Outside of perceived leverage for themselves (with better performance), it is probably an example of what is only given to someone like Koivu whom has an inexplicable hold on his owner, and stifles other (better) players contract negotiations. 

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17 minutes ago, EmptyShelf said:

Lastly, I am under the understanding that cap hits and base salaries of 11 and 20 start to fall quickly in the next 2-4 years by design.  Do you know something different?  Besides, why do 9, 11, and 20 have any history that suggests they should be treated like others that have achieved?  They have collected way ‘above market’ monies relative to playoff and team performance and created a very bad team culture.  Players that have played this team surely know this, and if free agents, probably wouldn’t hold this emergency personnel handling to ‘right the ship’ against Fenton.  9, 11 and 20 simply don’t deserve better - probably in the opinions of many players. 

 

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While you are correct that the salary of Parise and Suter fall significantly over the last 2-4 years, their cap hits do not. So in the last year of Parise's contract while he is "only" getting compensated at $1M, his cap hit is still $7.5M.

Edited by IllaZilla
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1 hour ago, IllaZilla said:

 

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While you are correct that the salary of Parise and Suter fall significantly over the last 2-4 years, their cap hits do not. So in the last year of Parise's contract while he is "only" getting compensated at $1M, his cap hit is still $7.5M.

Great information.  These contracts and their long-term ramifications (Cap Hit) are literally a 'franchise' stifling/killing proposition.  I just cannot believe an owner that has the kind of wealth that CL has (inherited or not) signed these deals for players that are truly second tier, and handcuffed his franchise for 6-10 of the 12 years.  Just idiotic.  It is a testament to why he should NOT be involved in making personnel decisions beyond the 30k foot level.  He literally annihilated any chance to correct course for over a decade on players that were not; Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Kane, etc.  Not new news, but was there EVER a Plan B!?!  Fenton has to find a way to work around this fiasco, and I would NOT allow 9, 11, or 20 to do any more damage to future prospects of the franchise than is absolutely necessary.  Pull the C and As now, and force their hand to; be traded, retire, or be de-emphasized or demoted.  It is not their fault that they signed the contracts, but it IS their fault that they did NOT perform to expectations, coasted, became insubordinate, and divisive to the culture and TEAM.  They ran out coaches, players, and GMs.  I would NOT let them impact anything in the future and would find any way to diminish or eliminate their relevance (no matter the consequences).   That is where the Wild find themselves - it will be a longer rebuilding process the longer Fenton/CL waits.  The time is NOW  

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Good Lord!  Crosby's Cap implications are more than Parise ($1.2MM, and about the same duration), but what a difference in terms of personal and team performance for the according Cap impact.  Beyond explanation how Parise and Crosby are almost comparable to the ongoing finances of respective teams (not to mention Suter).  Just makes NO sense at all how CL/CF perceived these signings and according contracts and implications to be close to 'PAR' with a multi-Cup winning, scoring champ, HOF player.  Crosby is also 3 YEARS younger.  Just egregious....

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24 minutes ago, EmptyShelf said:

Great information.  These contracts and their long-term ramifications (Cap Hit) are literally a 'franchise' stifling/killing proposition.  I just cannot believe an owner that has the kind of wealth that CL has (inherited or not) signed these deals for players that are truly second tier, and handcuffed his franchise for 6-10 of the 12 years.  Just idiotic.  It is a testament to why he should NOT be involved in making personnel decisions beyond the 30k foot level.  He literally annihilated any chance to correct course for over a decade on players that were not; Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Kane, etc.  Not new news, but was there EVER a Plan B!?!  Fenton has to find a way to work around this fiasco, and I would NOT allow 9, 11, or 20 to do any more damage to future prospects of the franchise than is absolutely necessary.  Pull the C and As now, and force their hand to; be traded, retire, or be de-emphasized or demoted.  It is not their fault that they signed the contracts, but it IS their fault that they did NOT perform to expectations, coasted, became insubordinate, and divisive to the culture and TEAM.  They ran out coaches, players, and GMs.  I would NOT let them impact anything in the future and would find any way to diminish or eliminate their relevance (no matter the consequences).   That is where the Wild find themselves - it will be a longer rebuilding process the longer Fenton/CL waits.  The time is NOW  

I think when CL made these deals, he made them under the rules of the old CBA. When a player retired, the contract ended, no matter how much was left to pay and the contract came off the team’s books. That’s why everything is front end loaded: signing bonuses, big salary. Then the 2012 lockout happened, and the new CBA got rid of the “retirement “ loophole. Now the team is stuck unless they waive their NMC and get traded, or they retire and a team like Arizona picks them up to make the salary floor. 

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20 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

I think when CL made these deals, he made them under the rules of the old CBA. When a player retired, the contract ended, no matter how much was left to pay and the contract came off the team’s books. That’s why everything is front end loaded: signing bonuses, big salary. Then the 2012 lockout happened, and the new CBA got rid of the “retirement “ loophole. Now the team is stuck unless they waive their NMC and get traded, or they retire and a team like Arizona picks them up to make the salary floor. 

Another reason CL should never be involved with any contracts or decisions. Didn't look forward to the future or the fact CBA was starting to show signs of not liking the contract they have.

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Now would be a good time to call up any possible prospects to play. Personally I'm curious about Anas  and Sokolov, and feel that they have done enough to earn a game or two in the big team. Nothing to lose if they won't be any good yet, and hopefully we might even drop a couple of teams lower pointwise and have a.bit better chances in the lottery. I'm sure the big team players are pretty banged up so IR should be possible and necessary to tone down the risk of further injuries.

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8 hours ago, lynxrattle said:

Now would be a good time to call up any possible prospects to play. Personally I'm curious about Anas  and Sokolov, and feel that they have done enough to earn a game or two in the big team. Nothing to lose if they won't be any good yet, and hopefully we might even drop a couple of teams lower pointwise and have a.bit better chances in the lottery. I'm sure the big team players are pretty banged up so IR should be possible and necessary to tone down the risk of further injuries.

 

I would advise against that. The parent club is a mess. At least Iowa is still in the playoff picture (for now). Keep those guys in Iowa learning how to fight for a Playoff spot rather than exposing them to the lackadaisical effort that has infected the parent club...

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

I would advise against that. The parent club is a mess. At least Iowa is still in the playoff picture (for now). Keep those guys in Iowa learning how to fight for a Playoff spot rather than exposing them to the lackadaisical effort that has infected the parent club...

 

I agree, let them play in games that matter in a team context.

 

Do you really think it's a case of the team being lackadaisical or just that the team isn't very talented or cohesive?  I didn't watch this last blowout but I don't think there was a lack of effort in the previous Vegas win or close loss in a grinding playoff-like game vs Nashville.

 

Funny how after every loss it's the same cliches.  The team didn't play hard, they didn't hustle, they didn't play the system, etc ad nauseam.  

Here's a crazy idea - sometimes the loss is due to getting beaten by a more talented, more cohesive, equally hard working team?

Edited by Fargocase
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On second thought, you're probably right. Winning culture is of utmost importance. One needs only have a look at the Coyotes. They're full of the Hawks' leftovers - and those leftovers are accustomed to win. Even if it's a 1-0, 2-0 struggle.

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I would definitely begin to diminish Suter and Parise's ice-time.  I would do so for two reasons: to get some other players more primary ice-time opportunities, and to show them that the future will not include them out there at 26+ minutes and 18+ minutes, respectively.  I would also meet with Koivu in the off-season and let him know not to rush his rehabilitation, and advise that he is now a #3 C at best, and should not expect more than a 'retirement tour.'  I would also meet with Parise and Suter in the off-season, and advise them that next year will be the first transition year in the rebuild, with them bouncing down a few lines and expecting diminished ice-time.  I would gauge their respective interest (again) in being moved to any prospective 20/21 playoff team in the summer (as the Wild are going 'full rebuild').  Thereafter, focus on the draft with some new scouts - pay for the best, and make the right choices in the draft. 

 

Next Year:  Greenway, Donato, Kunin, Fiala, EEK, and any younger forwards that deserve a look, should see Top Line ice with Zucker (with EEK and Staal playing in any combination based upon performance).  Parise and Koivu can be on the 3rd or 4th line, respectively, when at full health.  As for defense, I want to see Dumba, Spurgeon, and Brodin with Top Line ice, with Suter 3rd or 4th in ice-time (20-22 minutes), with no regard for compensation dictating ice-time.  The Parise and Suter contracts are 'sunk money', with no payoff, unless you can unload them.  They will not contribute to the next playoff team with a chance to advance, either.....   

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Posted (edited)

Adding to EmptyShelf's comment, Look who showed up when needed in this Playoff push. The youth !!

They deserve more ice time right away next season.

 

Sure Parise gets taken out but he wasn't hitting the back of the net much lately anyhow. We all know about #20 and Zucker gets the cement hands award this year. Maybe Brodz could do a personal presentation to him. ;)

Edited by ClusterChuck
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Parise was obviously the Wild's best Forward this year.  Suter and Spurgie were obviously the best Dmen this year.  

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Parise was likely the best forward this year (with everyone in a slump), but will not be a core cog in any future playoff run.  He is also VERY susceptible to injury.  So, why not begin to 'save him' from overwork and injury and milk whatever you can get out of him because you have SIX MORE YEARS to pay him. 

 

Suter was not even close to #1 or #2 on defense.  Spurgeon was much better, Dumba was on his way to much better, and I think Brodin is a better player right now than Suter.  Watch him play, he is too easy to scheme against.  He has lost forward speed and lateral agility, and he is now making serious gaffes on both offense and defense (getting caught pinching, lazy stick waves, throwing pucks into the stands with 2 minutes left, and soft-tossing terrible passes to the other team on a rush).  If not for his ridiculous ice-time, and his guaranteed time on the power play with an old woman's shot (or beer league at best), his second assist points go down drastically.  He might event be a better player at 20-22 minutes.  He ain't a high minute 'iron man' or a 'hockey IQ asset' anymore, capable of such over the top ice-time.  He is a turnstile back there, that wears down throughout the game (in spite of blatant conservation).  He also shows no respect for the coaches in refusing to come off on the change - sets a bad example for the youngsters - and has lost his focus and drive.  He is mailing it in....

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58 minutes ago, EmptyShelf said:

Parise was likely the best forward this year (with everyone in a slump), but will not be a core cog in any future playoff run.  He is also VERY susceptible to injury.  So, why not begin to 'save him' from overwork and injury and milk whatever you can get out of him because you have SIX MORE YEARS to pay him. 

 

Suter was not even close to #1 or #2 on defense.  Spurgeon was much better, Dumba was on his way to much better, and I think Brodin is a better player right now than Suter.  Watch him play, he is too easy to scheme against.  He has lost forward speed and lateral agility, and he is now making serious gaffes on both offense and defense (getting caught pinching, lazy stick waves, throwing pucks into the stands with 2 minutes left, and soft-tossing terrible passes to the other team on a rush).  If not for his ridiculous ice-time, and his guaranteed time on the power play with an old woman's shot (or beer league at best), his second assist points go down drastically.  He might event be a better player at 20-22 minutes.  He ain't a high minute 'iron man' or a 'hockey IQ asset' anymore, capable of such over the top ice-time.  He is a turnstile back there, that wears down throughout the game (in spite of blatant conservation).  He also shows no respect for the coaches in refusing to come off on the change - sets a bad example for the youngsters - and has lost his focus and drive.  He is mailing it in....

Empty shelf, there was absolutely nothing empty about that take, absolutely spot on.

I don't know how they will ever get Suter to come off the ice for a decent shift length, or to actually play hard all the time the way younger players are expected, but the wild had better figure it out.

Parise must be protected from himself, because he plays to hard for 35 year old man.

I have never had a problem with parise's hustle, but it does get him injured.

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12 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

I would advise against that. The parent club is a mess. At least Iowa is still in the playoff picture (for now). Keep those guys in Iowa learning how to fight for a Playoff spot rather than exposing them to the lackadaisical effort that has infected the parent club...

Lackadaisical effort?  You've got to be kidding me. Recently shutting out TB and beating SC champ Wash in their own buildings? Desparation/frustration can manifest themselves into appearing to be a lack of effort.
 

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17 hours ago, Fargocase said:

Parise was obviously the Wild's best Forward this year.  Suter and Spurgie were obviously the best Dmen this year.  

Parise was for sure. Spurgie and Brodin have been way better defensively then Suter. If Dumba didn't get hurt he would be way ahead of Suter. I would say Suter for sure is 4th best d-men on the Wild. Suter really has left his pairing teammate out to dry a ton expecting them to pick up double the work.  His offensive stats look pretty good but then again he is out there for all of the PPs and key offensive moments and seems to "hang out on the ice" longer then anybody else.

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:08 PM, IllaZilla said:

I think when CL made these deals, he made them under the rules of the old CBA. When a player retired, the contract ended, no matter how much was left to pay and the contract came off the team’s books. That’s why everything is front end loaded: signing bonuses, big salary. Then the 2012 lockout happened, and the new CBA got rid of the “retirement “ loophole. Now the team is stuck unless they waive their NMC and get traded, or they retire and a team like Arizona picks them up to make the salary floor. 

Thank You I-Z !!

I knew there was something unexpected that happened during the CBA but was never clear on it.

Loved to see Cl's face after that came down.

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  • Most Liked Posts in This Topic

    • 5
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      How to tank? Send a letter to my friends on Kingsway Ave in Edmonton. They're experts. How to rebuild? Burn their address after you send that first letter.  
    • 4
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      I agree, let them play in games that matter in a team context.   Do you really think it's a case of the team being lackadaisical or just that the team isn't very talented or cohesive?  I didn't watch this last blowout but I don't think there was a lack of effort in the previous Vegas win or close loss in a grinding playoff-like game vs Nashville.   Funny how after every loss it's the same cliches.  The team didn't play hard, they didn't hustle, they didn't play the system, et
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      I would definitely begin to diminish Suter and Parise's ice-time.  I would do so for two reasons: to get some other players more primary ice-time opportunities, and to show them that the future will not include them out there at 26+ minutes and 18+ minutes, respectively.  I would also meet with Koivu in the off-season and let him know not to rush his rehabilitation, and advise that he is now a #3 C at best, and should not expect more than a 'retirement tour.'  I would also meet with Parise and S
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      I think the Wild are probably in the worst spot to be in for a pro sport team. Big time contracts, some that you can't move, with no results. You got 14 players with contracts expiring in the next two seasons and some (Greenway, Spurgeon, Granlund) are key guys that will command more money. I am in favor of a full rebuild with Fletcher gone. But it depends what Fentons real game plan is too. The other factor is that the Wild really can't do this for another 6 years when Parise and Suter are
    • 2
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      I would advise against that. The parent club is a mess. At least Iowa is still in the playoff picture (for now). Keep those guys in Iowa learning how to fight for a Playoff spot rather than exposing them to the lackadaisical effort that has infected the parent club...
    • 2
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      Adding to EmptyShelf's comment, Look who showed up when needed in this Playoff push. The youth !! They deserve more ice time right away next season.   Sure Parise gets taken out but he wasn't hitting the back of the net much lately anyhow. We all know about #20 and Zucker gets the cement hands award this year. Maybe Brodz could do a personal presentation to him.

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