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WordsOfWisdom

Ditch Nylander for a Defenceman!

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Perfect opportunity for the Leafs to get rid of Nylander and get some help on the blue line. 

 

Leafs don't need him. His idea of what he's worth to the team is greatly exaggerated. I wouldn't pay his asking price.

 

Time to move on?  

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Yes trading Nylander for a superior d-man makes sense but who, which teams have a superior d-men pool from which they could afford to trade.  Nylander isn't worth $8 mil.say most Leaf fans so which team should be excited to trade with TO knowing what his demands are. 

 

TO is vulnerable to being taken in any transaction while in this state and I doubt would be able to get fair value.

 

Quote

So you want to trade Nylander for a defenseman...

There really are not many good young defenceman in the NHL, and there are maybe a couple that are on a team in a situation where it may make even a remote amount of sense for the Leafs AND the other team to want to make that trade.

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    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

Anyway this is a good article dealing with how difficult it might be to trade Nylander and get back decent value.

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Has he really been asking for $8 mil. per year? Wow... for how many years?

 

Unfortunately for William the Leafs are doing great and especially the offense. No reason to surrender to his demands.

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I think his asking price is more conjecture but Edmonton and Buffalo has changed the landscape for what players leaving their ELC can ask for. Nylander's stats line up well with Eichel and Draisaitl.

 

7 or 8 years, long term anyway.

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17 hours ago, hobie said:

Nylander's stats line up well with Eichel and Draisaitl

Is this true? If it is, it doesn't make Nylader worth 8M, it makes Eichel and Draisaitle overpaid..... 

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There isn't too many players, ever, that have accumulated more points than Nylander in the first 2 years of their NHL careers, ever. 

 

Marner, 8 more points, Matthews, 10 more points as comparisons so since the word is that Matthews will probably be looking at around 12 mil. per in his next contract and Marner 9+, Nylander's rumored demands aren't that unrealistic.  

Edited by hobie

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2 hours ago, Icechipper said:

Some Minnesota fans mention Dumba. Not me.

You're saying you like Dumba, right? If you are, I'm definitely with you--Dumba is at that point where he seems to look better by the game.

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I used to shudder when he was on the ice. He's just starting to blossom. Meanwhile Suter has doubters and Brodin and Spurgeon fly under the radar but are solid. Don't stop a train when it's just picking up steam....

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I read in The Hockey News before he was drafted that Dumba played a very similar game to Phaneuf, same strengths, same weaknesses.

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On 10/20/2018 at 12:42 AM, hobie said:

There isn't too many players, ever, that have accumulated more points than Nylander in the first 2 years of their NHL careers, ever. 

 

Marner, 8 more points, Matthews, 10 more points as comparisons so since the word is that Matthews will probably be looking at around 12 mil. per in his next contract and Marner 9+, Nylander's rumored demands aren't that unrealistic.  

How many of those "comparables" played with Matthews as their centre? It's not about numbers alone. Do you think he's an 8M  dollars a year player? My hockey sense after watching him for a full 82 games says he is not worth anywhere near 8M. 

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I don't think our thoughts are of any concern, it's what the markets will bear and it's possible that Nylander is well thought of. If JVR is worth 7 mil. then I would say that Nylander is worth far more.

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On 10/19/2018 at 6:49 PM, BluPuk said:

Is this true? If it is, it doesn't make Nylader worth 8M, it makes Eichel and Draisaitle overpaid..... 

Since they are the prime examples, they set the market value. Johansen is another. And Kuznetsov.

 

The cap goes up, the average pay goes up.

 

10 years ago, people were going crazy because Crosby making 8.7 and Malkin Making 8.7 was going to cripple them and make it impossible for them to win the cup.....lol. Most top line players then were making 7 million. People were going out and overpaying UFA's like Drury and Gomez 6.5-7 million. Meanwhile Thornton had just won a Hart and scored back to back 90 assist, 115-126 point seasons and signed a hometown discount contract for 7 million lol(FYI, Marleau did not :(....jerk).

 

But the Salary cap back then was 56 million. The average borderline 1st liner, top flight 2nd liner cost 4.8 to 5 million.

 

Saying "OMG he wants 8 million Dollars!" isn't that bad considering cap inflating.

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7 hours ago, BluPuk said:

How many of those "comparables" played with Matthews as their centre? It's not about numbers alone. Do you think he's an 8M  dollars a year player? My hockey sense after watching him for a full 82 games says he is not worth anywhere near 8M. 

I agree. I'd pay $8mil per year for 8 years only to a future franchise player. Currently Nylander doesn't have that in him. A skillful finesse player yes but not someone who'll lead the others with his example. The Leafs have a couple of franchise players in the payroll already, they have leverage with Nylander IMO.

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3 hours ago, hobie said:

I don't think our thoughts are of any concern, it's what the markets will bear and it's possible that Nylander is well thought of. If JVR is worth 7 mil. then I would say that Nylander is worth far more.

JVR was an UFA, that earned him some extra. Voracek and Giroux earn little over $8 mil., I don't think Nylander is in that class yet. Plus Leafs are stacked with quality forwards, you don't desperately need him.

 

A good chance to test if Nylander is in it just for the money or for the team/SC too? Offer him a bridge deal, 3-4 years? He has his agent has to understand that in the pecking order he's max. 3rd behind Matthews and Tavares and Auston is in for a helluva raise next year.

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Remember Warren Young? Anyone? Borderline pro started with North Stars then rang up 19 points his first full season then was picked up by Pittsburgh and tallied 79 points and 174 penalty minutes as a left wing/bodyguard for Mario Lemieux. Went to Detroit on a nice contract but never came close to those numbers again. Can't blame Nylander for going for a contract now though

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13 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

I agree. I'd pay $8mil per year for 8 years only to a future franchise player. Currently Nylander doesn't have that in him. A skillful finesse player yes but not someone who'll lead the others with his example. The Leafs have a couple of franchise players in the payroll already, they have leverage with Nylander IMO.

8 million in today's game is equal to about 5 million 10 years ago.

 

Are you saying 10 years ago you would only pay a franchise player 5 million dollars? because you would have lost half your team. Every decent high end second liner was getting 5 million 10 years ago

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1 hour ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

8 million in today's game is equal to about 5 million 10 years ago.

 

Are you saying 10 years ago you would only pay a franchise player 5 million dollars? because you would have lost half your team. Every decent high end second liner was getting 5 million 10 years ago

I think on another team. 

 

They're going to have some tough choices with Tavares, Matthews and Marner getting huge money.  He's either going to have to sign a discount or be moved for something more economical. 

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19 hours ago, hobie said:

I don't think our thoughts are of any concern, it's what the markets will bear and it's possible that Nylander is well thought of. If JVR is worth 7 mil. then I would say that Nylander is worth far more.

 

As a Flyer fan I would trade JVR for Nylander in a heartbeat. 

 

But you can't compare a contract for a UFA 10 year vet and a RFA coming off an ELC. Nylander doesn't have the leverage JVR had, ever though he's a better player. And Toronto won't have the capspace available that Philly had when they signed JVR.

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There are rumours floating around now that any kind of long-term contract is off the table for Nylander. So it seems a bridge deal will be what he gets, likely at no more than 5M and certainly no more than two years. If he doesn't go for that offer, then I suspect the only move the Leafs can make is to trade him. The sooner the better IMHO.

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3 hours ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

8 million in today's game is equal to about 5 million 10 years ago.

 

Are you saying 10 years ago you would only pay a franchise player 5 million dollars? because you would have lost half your team. Every decent high end second liner was getting 5 million 10 years ago

I don't think a chronological comparison fits well here. 10 years ago GMs weren't this crazy and maybe the CBA was a bit better too plus the agents and players weren't so greedy. We're seeing some amazing contracts, Tuch's the latest. What I meant with that post of mine you quoted; Nylander is asking too much compared to his performances and his significance to the Leafs.

 

I think you know better these salary things than me so on the top off your head can you name few teams that have an $8 mil. forward filling the 2nd line? I would assume that's not a very common recipe to try and win the cup.

 

 

Edited by Hockey-78
typo

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31 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

I don't think a chronological comparison fits well here. 10 years ago GMs weren't this crazy and maybe the CBA was a bit better too plus the agents and players weren't so greedy. We're seeing some amazing contracts, Tuch's the latest. What I meant with that post of mine you quoted; Nylander is asking too much compared to his performances and his significance to the Leafs.

 

I think you know better these salary things than me so on the top off your head can you name few teams that have an $8 mil. forward filling the 2nd line? I would assume that's not a very common recipe to try and win the cup.

 

 

The Chronological comparison ABSOLUTELY is necessary. If a GM gave out a 5 million dollar contract 10 years ago, it was a huge deal in terms of the cap. You can't just ignore inflation to try to say 8 million is too much when that cap has gone up by 35 million dollars compared to 10 years ago. That's like saying "Tavares sucks compared to 80's players, he can't even score 90 points"

 

 

I can name several teams with an 8 million dollar forward on the 2nd line. It depends on coaching deployment.

 

Nylander is a 1st line talent with an acumen for the PP. Just because you shoehorn him on the 2nd line doesn't mean he is a 2nd line talent.

 

In the leafs case by that logic, is Tavares a 2nd liner? or Matthews?

 

Since Toews plays on the top line, Kane is a 2nd liner because he is not on that line?

 

Only a handful of people Nylander's age have scored as many points as he has at that age and the teams with young guys like that have been giving young RFA's big contracts.

 

You are going to pay him or you are going to trade him. His father has his ear and isn't going to let him take a hometeam discount.

 

Quite frankly, while I love players who take hometeam discounts, it is silly to expect it.

 

 I am good at my job, I am negotiating the best pay possible.

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@J0e Th0rnton Yup. It's all about the percentage of the cap hit, not the raw dollars. People get hung up on the AAV, but it only really has relevance to the period of time in which it was signed.

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2 hours ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

The Chronological comparison ABSOLUTELY is necessary. If a GM gave out a 5 million dollar contract 10 years ago, it was a huge deal in terms of the cap. You can't just ignore inflation to try to say 8 million is too much when that cap has gone up by 35 million dollars compared to 10 years ago. That's like saying "Tavares sucks compared to 80's players, he can't even score 90 points"

 

 

I can name several teams with an 8 million dollar forward on the 2nd line. It depends on coaching deployment.

 

Nylander is a 1st line talent with an acumen for the PP. Just because you shoehorn him on the 2nd line doesn't mean he is a 2nd line talent.

 

In the leafs case by that logic, is Tavares a 2nd liner? or Matthews?

 

Since Toews plays on the top line, Kane is a 2nd liner because he is not on that line?

 

Only a handful of people Nylander's age have scored as many points as he has at that age and the teams with young guys like that have been giving young RFA's big contracts.

 

You are going to pay him or you are going to trade him. His father has his ear and isn't going to let him take a hometeam discount.

 

Quite frankly, while I love players who take hometeam discounts, it is silly to expect it.

 

 I am good at my job, I am negotiating the best pay possible.

You should give this reasoning to the Leafs' management if signing him with his terms is so logical. 😉

 

I think you and me can agree that we disagree on this. We obviously define Nylander's value differently and we could probably go back and forth with various comparisons. Say, the Wild negotiated with Granlund after 2016-2017 season when he was their best scorer a deal of €5.75 mil. for 3 years. People do settle for less if they have their priorities in order. And yes, 1st line, 2nd line... that's of marginal relevance.

 

The Leafs need to sign both Matthews and Marner next year who I see as better players (probably the majority does too). Without them or a year from now Nylander would be in a much better situation with his demands. But now... maybe it would be better off for both parties to trade him elsewhere, $8 mil. a year for the team's 4th best forward is a gamble for Toronto. IMO.

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5 hours ago, BluPuk said:

There are rumours floating around now that any kind of long-term contract is off the table for Nylander. So it seems a bridge deal will be what he gets, likely at no more than 5M and certainly no more than two years. If he doesn't go for that offer, then I suspect the only move the Leafs can make is to trade him. The sooner the better IMHO.

Yes, a bridge deal would favor both of them. Nylander gets to stay in a top team and the Leafs can start deliberating contracts á la Matthews/Marner. Or would William be happier in Arizona getting paid what he wants and losing more than every other game... Maybe.

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    • 2
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      This would be a reason TO shouldn't trade with Minny,  Minny like most teams is up against the Cap and would need to move players to fit Nylander so a trade with Minny would mean TO would have to take back deadwood or quantity in exchange for quality which I consider Nylander to be.   If you're suggesting Dumba for Nylander essentially, I'd pass as I think Dumba is Phaneauf light.
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      I don't know if it means that a trade is coming, but Kyle Dubas flew to 5 different cities in 5 days to watch/scout 5 hockey games. That's a hell of a lot of travel for a GM in October.  
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      Perfect opportunity for the Leafs to get rid of Nylander and get some help on the blue line.    Leafs don't need him. His idea of what he's worth to the team is greatly exaggerated. I wouldn't pay his asking price.   Time to move on?  
    • 1
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      Yes trading Nylander for a superior d-man makes sense but who, which teams have a superior d-men pool from which they could afford to trade.  Nylander isn't worth $8 mil.say most Leaf fans so which team should be excited to trade with TO knowing what his demands are.    TO is vulnerable to being taken in any transaction while in this state and I doubt would be able to get fair value.     Anyway this is a good article dealing with how difficult it might be to trade Nylander and get back decent value.
    • 1
      Post
      Has he really been asking for $8 mil. per year? Wow... for how many years?   Unfortunately for William the Leafs are doing great and especially the offense. No reason to surrender to his demands.
    • 1
      Post
      JVR was an UFA, that earned him some extra. Voracek and Giroux earn little over $8 mil., I don't think Nylander is in that class yet. Plus Leafs are stacked with quality forwards, you don't desperately need him.   A good chance to test if Nylander is in it just for the money or for the team/SC too? Offer him a bridge deal, 3-4 years? He has his agent has to understand that in the pecking order he's max. 3rd behind Matthews and Tavares and Auston is in for a helluva raise next year.

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