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Ditch Nylander for a Defenceman!


WordsOfWisdom

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I think it's always a bad idea to sign players for more than they're worth, be it JVR, Marleau or Nylander under any circumstances. Conversely I think it's appropriate to pay players what they're worth.  

 

On a bad TO without Matthews and JT paying Nylander 8 mil. can be considered a good deal, I believe Nylander is probably better than Draistl who makes more than what Nylander is asking for, I guess.

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Lot of good points here. Reality of today's nhl salary cap structure is that teams are built as pyramids: $10 million for the top one or two, midrange and up and comers talent Anywhere from $3 to $7 million and a fourth line and 5-6 defensemen composed either of vets willing to take $1 million or kids on entry level contracts. Dumba fits in that up-and-coming category on a team where the top contracts go to Parise and Suter and Koivu, all in my opinion still elite players in their 30s. The Wild could definitely find a place for Nylander but would have to move at least two contracts.

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10 hours ago, Icechipper said:

Lot of good points here. Reality of today's nhl salary cap structure is that teams are built as pyramids: $10 million for the top one or two, midrange and up and comers talent Anywhere from $3 to $7 million and a fourth line and 5-6 defensemen composed either of vets willing to take $1 million or kids on entry level contracts. Dumba fits in that up-and-coming category on a team where the top contracts go to Parise and Suter and Koivu, all in my opinion still elite players in their 30s. The Wild could definitely find a place for Nylander but would have to move at least two contracts.

 

This would be a reason TO shouldn't trade with Minny,  Minny like most teams is up against the Cap and would need to move players to fit Nylander so a trade with Minny would mean TO would have to take back deadwood or quantity in exchange for quality which I consider Nylander to be.

 

If you're suggesting Dumba for Nylander essentially, I'd pass as I think Dumba is Phaneauf light.

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@hobie OEL might be desirable to you? Salary around $8M, definitely worth the money, he's a stud. Nylander for OEL probably wouldn't be enough for the Yotes, they probably don't even want to shop their best player. Unless you'd suggest trading 2-3 quality players plus a pick to really get them going? John Chayka, are you here?

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OEL, maybe but I thought that if TO was seriously looking Trouba from Winterpeg would be my choice. Winterpeg could use a center which is probably what Nylander should be and TO could use a RHD. Trouba with Rielly appeals to me.

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@hobie Oh yeah, Trouba might be good and Winnipeg probably has the cap space too. But his contract is about to expire. You'd have to be careful not to shop WN for a one year rental player. Although this might be your season to go far, why not gamble a bit...Btw, why wouldn't they be interested in improving defense which by all accounts is the position you need strengthening the most?

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Possession is TO's problem, forward responsibility is another.

 

If Lidstrom was on the Leafs, now, it would be difficult for him to be viewed as one of the best d-men that ever lived.

 

For many bad defense means bad d-men but it's not always the case. In any event an upgrade at any position is an upgrade so better d-men should help.

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On 10/23/2018 at 3:57 AM, Icechipper said:

Lot of good points here. Reality of today's nhl salary cap structure is that teams are built as pyramids: $10 million for the top one or two, midrange and up and comers talent Anywhere from $3 to $7 million and a fourth line and 5-6 defensemen composed either of vets willing to take $1 million or kids on entry level contracts. Dumba fits in that up-and-coming category on a team where the top contracts go to Parise and Suter and Koivu, all in my opinion still elite players in their 30s. The Wild could definitely find a place for Nylander but would have to move at least two contracts.

 

They need to ditch the salary cap and change to a luxury tax system.  The current system sucks A-double-S. 

 

(Excuse the thread crossover.)  :)

 

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7 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

They need to ditch the salary cap and change to a luxury tax system.  The current system sucks A-double-S. 

 

(Excuse the thread crossover.)  :)

 

 

No.

 

Buying championships has nothing to do with sportsmanship. Zero. 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/23/2018 at 2:42 PM, hobie said:

 

This would be a reason TO shouldn't trade with Minny,  Minny like most teams is up against the Cap and would need to move players to fit Nylander so a trade with Minny would mean TO would have to take back deadwood or quantity in exchange for quality which I consider Nylander to be.

 

If you're suggesting Dumba for Nylander essentially, I'd pass as I think Dumba is Phaneauf light.

 

Very well said.  Minny would actually be a poor trading partner.

 

On 10/22/2018 at 7:52 PM, hobie said:

I think it's always a bad idea to sign players for more than they're worth, be it JVR, Marleau or Nylander under any circumstances. Conversely I think it's appropriate to pay players what they're worth.  

 

Minny is actually a great example of the violation of this.  

Because

On 10/23/2018 at 3:57 AM, Icechipper said:

Dumba fits in that up-and-coming category on a team where the top contracts go to Parise and Suter and Koivu, all in my opinion still elite players in their 30s

 

This honestly (sorry icechipper) isn't true outside of Minnesota.   The three listed are not elite and Dumba is what he is --mid-level at best.  But they're being paid as if it's true and that's both the problem with the Wilds' lack of results and also their inability to trade for quality help.

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I don't know if it means that a trade is coming, but Kyle Dubas flew to 5 different cities in 5 days to watch/scout 5 hockey games. That's a hell of a lot of travel for a GM in October.

 

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I'm not going to disagree that the Wild have older players on big contract, but right now they are a top team and the highest paid guys are leading by example, with Parise and Suter bringing the goals and assists, along with Granlund. But the team still needs to get younger. I get that. There's no "big trade coming" in Minnesota, as far as I am aware, Why shake it up when the core players have the team rolling.

 

But yeah, I can see that Toronto might be backed into a corner and have to make a trade. How about Tyler Myers or Jocob Trouba out of Winnipeg? How about Proporov out of Philadelphia. Winnipeg and Philadelphia have the cap space, I believe, to make it happen. Keep in mind that this is pure spitballin' on my part. I've read no credible report on Nylander's status in Toronto. 

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I don't think TO needs another d-man unless he's vastly superior to what TO already has, bandages don't stop a battleship from sinking.

 

I feel TO needs a better 3rd line center, I love Kadri but I've never thought he's a good center option. Bozak spent years as TO's FLC but only because there wasn't other proper options. Kadri, IMO, has been a center because TO didn't have better options. So far this year Kadri is -7, the worst stat on the Leafs and he hasn't been facing the opposition's best. Kadri's a scorer, a darn good scorer, but he's not a passer which to me is a necessity for a good center. He doesn't make his wingers better and he thrives when he has space so he needs a superior player that can create space for him to score. Almost half of Kadri's goals last year came on the PP, where he has space and players that could set him up. 

 

Nylander should be TO's 3rd line center, he's a puck possession beast and a great passer, the attributes of a center. Nylander might not be great defensively but I think he could make his wingers productive enough that his defensive short comings can be forgiven. 

 

Of course all teams would love a defensive upgrade but if TO gives up Nylander for a bandage, that wouldn't make any sense. We're hearing that TO has heard from 12 to 14 teams about acquiring Nylander and that might be true but I think that few if any offered up anything decent in return.

 

If TO signs Nylander, the lines I'd like to see:

 

Kappy/Matthews/Marner

Kadri/JT/Lindholm

Marleau/Nylander/Brown

Leivo/Hy/Ennis

 

 

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On 11/1/2018 at 3:48 AM, hobie said:

I don't think TO needs another d-man unless he's vastly superior to what TO already has, bandages don't stop a battleship from sinking.

 

I would draw a line in the sand and say the price for Nylander is a "top pair" defenceman.  Nothing less. 

 

On 11/1/2018 at 3:48 AM, hobie said:

Nylander should be TO's 3rd line center, he's a puck possession beast and a great passer, the attributes of a center. Nylander might not be great defensively but I think he could make his wingers productive enough that his defensive short comings can be forgiven. 

 

It's hard to imagine a player with Nylander's offensive skill being buried on the third line. I imagine he sees himself as a line 1 guy and that sort of thing wouldn't go over well. It's hard to compile nice numbers from a checking line role.

 

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21 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I would draw a line in the sand and say the price for Nylander is a "top pair" defenceman.  Nothing less. 

 

 

It's hard to imagine a player with Nylander's offensive skill being buried on the third line. I imagine he sees himself as a line 1 guy and that sort of thing wouldn't go over well. It's hard to compile nice numbers from a checking line role.

 

 

If it happens, don't be shocked if the return is less than you were hoping for. I say this not because Nylander isn't a quality player: he is. Teams just aren't lining up to trade top-pairing defensemen, particularly for wingers.

 

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4 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

If it happens, don't be shocked if the return is less than you were hoping for. I say this not because Nylander isn't a quality player: he is. Teams just aren't lining up to trade top-pairing defensemen, particularly for wingers.

 

 

True, but hopefully there's a team out there that is starving for goals and has too much money tied up in their D that a trade makes sense for them. 

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Right now, I'd take a dust bunny and a breath mint for him. He has become a pox on this team. A detriment. A ball and chain. A distraction. Counterproductive! Pick your own negative.

When this is all over, his 'agent' might have to find himself some employment.

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I think Babs likes/prefers his top 3 lines to be equal so having 3 lines lines that are all offensively capable to varying degrees would simply mean that the 4th line would get less minutes. As it stands right now Kadri who should be a top 6 player isn't getting top 6 minutes. Moving Nylander to his line would or might make that line better and deserving of more minutes.

 

Really I'd prefer that Kadri be moved up to either of the top 2 lines and both of those lines get more icetime now and even after Nylander signs.

 

Kadri/Matthews/Nylander

Kappy/JT/Marner

 

These 2 lines could eat up 40 minutes and that'd be quality perhaps even dominate minutes.

 

TO has the depth to ice 2 decent lines for the other 20 minutes and the money to improve those lines, this year.

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2 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

I read that the Hurricanes are seriously after WN, offering Pesce and a 1st round pick.

 

Wouldn't you, I don't know much about Pesce but his stats are pylon like and TO might need more mobile/offensively capable d-men in the future as Gardiner's contract expires next year.

 

I'd pass. I hope Dubie is looking for equal value not quantity, TO has a Cup winning window now and all moves need to feed that.

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