It's all about the vets

[brelic]

They also play a very perimeter game, and low to high. 

 

They don't gain access to the slot very much for high danger chances. It's typical for their players to be stationary along the walls and look to the point or down low for a pass along the wall. And they usually end up with a point shot from very close to the blueline.

 

Almost 50% of their shots against Colorado came from defensemen (17 of 38), while 33% of Colorado's shots came from defensemen. Also, Colorado was gaining access to the slot and more dangerous areas. 

 

Is this a coaching feature that is stifling our offense? Or is it the strategy Hak uses because that's what he feels the players are best at? I don't know anymore. 

 

 

[radoran]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:55 AM, brelic said:

Trade Voracek to Columbus for Panarin, straight up. For Columbus, they get a guy under contract for much shorter (4 more years after this season instead of the 8 for Panarin) and a pretty damn good player at that. 

 

Trade Simmonds and Myers to Toronto for Nylander. If they want an NHL defenseman, I'm not sure... Sanheim would be what they want, but I wouldn't do that for Nylander. 

 

I don't know why either Columbus or Tronno would make those trades. Maybe if the Jackets thought they couldn't re-sign Panarin, but they have the space for it. Why is Tronno moving on from a promising 22 year old center for an about-to-be UFA winger coming off a disappointing season and a guy who hasn't even played in the league yet?

 

19 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

If i'm doing someone thing like this...i would want to move them for a more effective forward like...

 

...Johnny Gaudreau...

 

Nor can I see the Flames doing this...

[Digityman]

Couple trade ideas in a few posts back.  Hextall has to make a choice. 

 

1)  Do nothing:  Remain status quo.  That signals it's another .500 year, at best bounced in the first round.  This is a hard pill to swallow for the fans and the vets.  Guys like Giroux aren't getting any younger.

2)  Change coach:  He went and pulled his guy all by his lonesome.  He would have to admit fault.

3)  Trade players:  In his mind, are they far enough down the rebuild-road:  have enough assets, comfortable with the projected ceiling of his young guys.... to make some significant trades?   Is it time to change up the core? 

 

If I were Ron I'd explore who I want to take over this team at the end of the season.   If that coach is available now, pull the trigger now.  If not, do it at the end of the season. 

 

Then, knowing that I would start dangling Jake and Simmer out there to see what the return would be.  As we get closer to the trade deadline the return will increase hopefully.   I think Simmer needs a team change.  Preferrably out West.  Jake, I have a love/hate relationship with.  There are just too many games he's invisible or worse.   In my eyes, TK drives the play more than Jake does and this turnovers are costly with the 49th best goalie in the league.

 

Flyers have a lot of assets.  Maybe it's time to start using them.   

[brelic]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

I don't know why either Columbus or Tronno would make those trades. Maybe if the Jackets thought they couldn't re-sign Panarin, but they have the space for it. Why is Tronno moving on from a promising 22 year old center for an about-to-be UFA winger coming off a disappointing season and a guy who hasn't even played in the league yet?

 

Fair enough on Toronto. I was spitballing, and I know that would never get the deal done. The conversation probably starts and ends with Ghost or Provorov. 

 

But with Columbus, it's been well publicized that Panarin wants to test free agency, and chances are he will bolt. Bob will probably leave too. So it gives them a chance to get some sort of return. And Voracek is a pretty nice return.

 

 

[Digityman]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't know why either Columbus or Tronno would make those trades. Maybe if the Jackets thought they couldn't re-sign Panarin, but they have the space for it. Why is Tronno moving on from a promising 22 year old center for an about-to-be UFA winger coming off a disappointing season and a guy who hasn't even played in the league yet?

 

 

Nor can I see the Flames doing this...

 

What a Debbie Downer you are today.  Jeezz

[brelic]

1 minute ago, Digityman said:

 

What a Debbie Downer you are today.  Jeezz

 

Today???

 

Lol

 

[radoran]

Just now, brelic said:

But with Columbus, it's been well publicized that Panarin wants to test free agency, and chances are he will bolt. Bob will probably leave too. So it gives them a chance to get some sort of return. And Voracek is a pretty nice return.

 

That's a different scenario than you posted in the original (4 more for Jake vs. 8 for Panarin).

 

So then the question is do the Flyers want to pony up for Panarin to play here until he's 34-35?

 

1 minute ago, Digityman said:

 

What a Debbie Downer you are today.  Jeezz

 

Just now, brelic said:

Today???

 

Lol

 

That's what six-going-on-seven years of mediocre hockey gets you in this market.

 

Give me a reason to care, I'll sing along forever

[OccamsRazor]

Also i didn't say it my last post but going back to the year when Homer fired Lavy after a 0-3 start i wasn't a fan of it and they have suffered since that knee jerk reaction.

 

Know i know the Preds love it and have done well since.

 

All they have accomplished since he took over:

 

His first year they won a franchise record 9 home game win streak. Lost in the first round to Cup winners Blackhawks.

 

The next year lead them to a franchise 14 game point streak. Lost in the 2nd round to Cup losers Sharks squad.

 

The following year he took a Wild card team to the Cup and lost to back to back winners in the Pens.

 

Before losing in the finals they swept a Blackhawk team marking the 1st time ever a 8th seed had knocked off the top seed in NHL history.

 

Then beat the Blues in 6 games to advance to the conference finals become the first team to win 10 straight home playoff wins since 97 Wings.

 

And then the Ducks in 6 games to go to the first finals in franchise history.

 

And if the Preds don't lose Johansen and Fiala during the run and then Ellis to injury in the finals who knows maybe hoist the Cup. 

 

Who knows what might have been in this last 7 years streak...

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't know why either Columbus or Tronno would make those trades. Maybe if the Jackets thought they couldn't re-sign Panarin, but they have the space for it. Why is Tronno moving on from a promising 22 year old center for an about-to-be UFA winger coming off a disappointing season and a guy who hasn't even played in the league yet?

 

 

Nor can I see the Flames doing this...

 

 

Well they did go out and sign 700 year old Mike Smith so they ain't perfect...yet you might have to spike their water supply to pull it off.

 

But it can't hurt to try...you would have to get creative and make it worth it to them...you have assets...or just stand pat...rinse and repeat.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Well they did go out and sign 700 year old Mike Smith so they ain't perfect...yet you might have to spike their water supply to pull it off.

 

But it can't hurt to try...you would have to get creative and make it worth it to them...you have assets...or just stand pat...rinse and repeat.

 

I'm all in favor of creative, but teams aren't lining up to give hot young players for waning vets.

 

The test I try is "would I want my team to do this?" If the answer is no, then I don't count on it.

 

If you had Gaudreau, what would you give him up for?

[King Knut]

11 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Was it??

 

Giroux put up 86 points.

Jake 62 points.

Simmer 60 points

Hartnell 52 points

Schenn 41 points

Vinny even score 20 goals 37 points

Coots 39 points

Kimmo 35 points

Mason won 33 games 2.50 gaa 916% 4 shutouts which ironically the best season he had since his first Calder winning year with 33 wins.

 

So yeah on the surface not that bad of a season.

 

But then you have the vet group on the back end of Kimmo and Coburn to stabilize the team it seems.

 

It had just went south since then.....fast....and hasn't recovered...

 

 

 

 

The talented players he had on defense the second year were: 

Coburn for 39 games

And a rookie Ghost for 21 games

 

MDZ,

Nik Grossman,

Ollie Lauridsen,

Carlo Calaicovo,

Mac,

Manning

Schenn 

Schultz

and Streit

 

It's a Motley Crew of Over the hill, past their prime, and never were gonna be D men, Coburn for half a season and a rookie ghost for 1/5 of a season.

 

So yeah... it was an untalented corps on D.  

HE did have Timmo the first year, but he also had Hal GIll and Erik Gustafson.

 

Which is not to defend Lavvy or to accuse any of the guys you mentioned as untalented.  But the defense in particular (the part of the team they're having the most issues with now still) as both by and large untalented and poorly coached.  

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

52 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Is this a coaching feature that is stifling our offense? Or is it the strategy Hak uses because that's what he feels the players are best at? I don't know anymore. 

 

 

If Hak thinks this team is best at low to high shots from the point with passes to the slot not being an option, then he is as dumb as we fear.  

 

With the exceptions of Simmer and JVR (though I think they'd be good at it if given the chance), this team's scoring strength would live and breath in the slot if they'd use it.  They don't do too poorly off the rush lately either, especially when a Coots type is there to trail and be ready for the transition back or to pick up the rebound garbage goal. 

 

It truly just doesn't seem like Hakstol likes these things because as soon as they start doing them, they stop within a game or two.  It's confounding.    

[King Knut]

13 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

If you had Gaudreau, what would you give him up for?

 

Nothing, because Hakstol would bench him.

[OccamsRazor]

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

If you had Gaudreau, what would you give him up for?

 

Simmer, Lindblom and Meyers would be a nice return.

 

It would still give them Tkachuk, Neal, Bennett and Lindblom down the LW.

 

Simmer at their 2nd line RW where they are thin at. They have would have Lindholm, Simmer, Frolik and Czrinak

 

And Hamonic, Andersson and Meyers as their RHD.

 

Give them some cap space and some youth on the backend.

 

Might have to take a contract back like Stone i would be ok with.

 

I don't know just filling a slow day....

[King Knut]

18 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Simmer, Lindblom and Meyers would be a nice return.

 

It would still give them Tkachuk, Neal, Bennett and Lindblom down the LW.

 

Simmer at their 2nd line RW where they are thin at. They have would have Lindholm, Simmer, Frolik and Czrinak

 

And Hamonic, Andersson and Meyers as their RHD.

 

Give them some cap space and some youth on the backend.

 

Might have to take a contract back like Stone i would be ok with.

 

I don't know just filling a slow day....

 

I really don't want to give up Myers.  Not with how poorly the defense is playing.  I don't think Gudreau's talent would save this team because i do not think it would be utilized. I was joking about Hak benching him, but even if he's on the ice, Hak doesn't know how or just doesn't like guys with those kinds of skills.  

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I don't think Gudreau's talent would save this team because i do not think it would be utilized.

 

Well it would give them a 1st goal scorer to help in the scoring department since Giroux has regressed (or return to normal)..you have to give to get...

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well it would give them a 1st goal scorer to help in the scoring department since Giroux has regressed (or return to normal)..you have to give to get...

 

I'm telling you, it's not regression or anything else.  It's utilization.  Gudreau would come here and be coached to do the opposite of what he does well that leads to goals.  

 

Talent level does not matter when they are being guided to a different ends.  

 

Case and point:  TK was better than Gudreau (at least for goals) for a long stretch of last season... until Hak moved him to the third line.  

 

From December1 to April a TK had 20 goals and Gudreau had only 9.  

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

The test I try is "would I want my team to do this?"

 

 

Since i just mentioned Smith above i thought this article is perfect even talks a guy who he replaced....

 

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/crease-concerns-five-netminders-struggling-to-find-their-game

 

Brian Elliott, Philadelphia Flyers
Shocking to see a Flyers goaltender on a list of underperforming netminders, right? Philadelphia has long been associated with goaltending greatness, a city where top flight puck stoppers have come a dime a dozen. The

Flyers have never had issues in goal. Nope. Never.

 

Jokes aside, though, Elliott is having a tough go of it in the early going, but his start to the season — he an .886 SP and 3.39 goals-against average in eight games — is really a microcosm of his entire tenure Philadelphia. The hope when Elliott arrived was that the Flyers would be getting the league-leading netminder he had during his final season in St. Louis in 2015-16. Instead, it’s Philadelphia that’s been signing the blues as they’ve watched Elliott turn in a .905 SP in 51 games for the Flyers. That’s not to mention his atrocious .856 SP in four playoff games last spring, either.

 

There’s hope yet for Elliott, however. The Flyers have been a fairly limiting team defensively, allowing the ninth-fewest shots against per game and they don’t give up all that much in terms of scoring or high-danger chances. If they can insulate Elliott just a bit better, maybe he can find his game. Or maybe a returning Michal Neuvirth can bring some consistency to the Flyers’ crease.

 

There is hope for him...yeah??? Really who are these people....must be Hak and Hexy.

[OccamsRazor]

Only two clubs (Flames and Sabres) have more PP time than the Flyers.

 

Let that sink in for a minute.

 

Only 6 total PP goals in that time. 1 goal in the last 5 games.

 

Just terrible....with all this talent they can't buy a goal.

[radoran]

9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

The hope when Elliott arrived was that the Flyers would be getting the league-leading netminder he had during his final season in St. Louis in 2015-16.

 

At the risk of tangenting, the issue for Elliott is he's not behind a Hitchcock-coached, defense-first-mentality team.

 

I don't know that any goalie could come up with the number of saves the current Flyers roster gives up in chances, but limiting the number of terrible breakaways and defensive breakdowns would help a lot.

 

That said, Elliott will still be Elliott.

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I'm telling you, it's not regression or anything else.  It's utilization.

 

Huh how is it utilization for Giroux  and NOT regressing??

 

He has 2 5 on 5 goals in 10 games.

 

1 PP goal.

 

He leads the team in PP average ice time.

 

He must perform ya know like we saw last year.

 

He isn't alone but he must set the example ya know captain and all.

 

So are you telling me Hak changed everything this offseason??

 

The season and what he expects from his captain??

 

I just don't understand what you are saying.

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

At the risk of tangenting, the issue for Elliott is he's not behind a Hitchcock-coached, defense-first-mentality team.

 

I don't know that any goalie could come up with the number of saves the current Flyers roster gives up in chances, but limiting the number of terrible breakaways and defensive breakdowns would help a lot.

 

That said, Elliott will still be Elliott.

 

Sure but being 9th in the NHL in shorts against isn't bad i would have never thought that is where they were...i would have thought was worse...however the quality of them does skew that....like when the Flyers out shoot the other team and a guy like Halak's chest is just killing him the next day....quality who knew.

[brelic]

Hahahaha. This is perfectly on point.

 

 

 

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure but being 9th in the NHL in shorts against isn't bad i would have never thought that is where they were...i would have thought was worse...however the quality of them does skew that....like when the Flyers out shoot the other team and a guy like Halak's chest is just killing him the next day....quality who knew.

 

Exactly.

 

They outshot Vegas 26-21 and lost 1-0.

 

They outshot Boston 26-24 and lost 3-0.

 

They outshot Colorado 37-34 and lost 5-2 then outshot them 38-32 and lost 4-1.

 

They outshot Columbus 35-28 and lost 6-3.

 

They certainly put up shots. Goals? Not so much.

[OccamsRazor]