The Zebras so far this season...

[Fargocase]

I posted this at the end of the Dallas Game Day thread.  BEFORE the TB game.   IMO what I posted is what happened during the game.  Against TB the Zebras again called a poor game.   Four straight penalties on the Wild.  Then Parise gets obviously grabbed by the arm and held and no penalty.  Even Dumbazz Greenlay made the comment that BB should be hollering at the Refs, there are two teams playing!    Evidence for two of the opinions I posted below - Refs calling penalties, many of them ticky tack BS, on the Wild at a much greater frequency than visa versa.  And then Parise, who I strongly believe the most held and interfered with player in the NHL gets obviously held with NO penalty...

 

Quote

 

I haven't complained about it this year,  but IMO the zebras have done a terrible job the past several games.  It's about time there was an Interference call drawn by Parise.  No player in the league gets held and hooked and interfered with as much as Parise.  Is there a clause in the Rule Book that says Parise is an exception?  It's OK to bearhug or hook him when he's in the Offensive zone?    And IF you're going to call BS ticky tack "slashes" call them against BOTH teams!

 

 

I'm going to look at NHL.com Team Penalty stats.   So far this year, my perception is the Wild are getting screwed a lot by the Zebras.  For sure since the Caro game.

[Fargocase]

Just looked it up.

 

8 games

 

PK Time 53:40 min

PP Time 31:13 min.

 

IMO that big disparity of 22:27 min isn't because the Wild are some penalty prone team like the dirty ducks, it's because the zebras have been doing a chitty job on numerous Wild games so far this year!

[EmptyShelf]

24 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

Just looked it up.

 

8 games

 

PK Time 53:40 min

PP Time 31:13 min.

 

IMO that big disparity of 22:27 min isn't because the Wild are some penalty prone team like the dirty ducks, it's because the zebras have been doing a chitty job on numerous Wild games so far this year!

The stats you pulled CLEARLY back up my viewing opinion.  With as soft as the Wild generally play, that disparity shows glaring oversight on the part of the Refs - simply a joke.  We don't play aggressive enough to ever have a 40% disparity.

[wild.source]

The refs need to learn to not call chitty calls when the Wild aren't doing anything.... The refs are a joke.

[Hockey-78]

@Fargocase In the league we are 8th for PK time and 30th for PP time. So yeah, you could argue that we're getting the short end of the stick. But why... a coincidence or conspiracy? Maybe we need a bigger sample size though.

[Buffalo Rick]

One thing I hate about NHL officiating is the "IOU" mentality they have.  If they call a penalty and especially if its disputed against one team, they feel its necessary to call one on the other team to "even things out" and not give the appearance of favoring one team.  Its crap.  Because after a justified penalty is called, they then call one on the other team for just touching the guy in the wrong way and much diving occurs because the players know damn well they will call the penalty.  It sucks. And the NFL is even worse.  They can call a penalty pretty much for holding on any play. At least in hockey its less of a gray area but there is still too much gray.

[rottenrefs]

Refs are bad toward the Wild? Say it isn't so! This isn't new news. The Wild have gotten screwed by refs for years. 

[IllaZilla]

Ima leave this here...

 

Year          PP/PK Diff          Rank

2018         -22:27                  31

2017         -53:31                  28

2016        +29:29                   9

2015     +107:20                    1

2014       +26:42                  11

2013         +0:01                  14

2012      +31:46                     4

2011      -49:42                   25

2010      -27:45                    23

2009        -2:15                    15 

 

Top PIM 2018

Fehr 4 pen, 8PIM

Brown 4 pen, 8PIM

Coyle 4 pen, 8PIM

Hendrickson 2 pen, 7PIM

Foligno 2 pen, 7PIM

Zucker 3 pen, 6PIM

Suter 3 pen, 6PIM

Staal 3 pen 6PIM

Pateryn 3 pen, 6PIM

Seeler 2 pen, 4PIM

Koivu 2 pen 4PIM

Brodin 1 pen, 2PIM

Read 1 pen, 2PIM

Niederreitter 1 pen, 2PIM

Spurgeon 1 pen, 2PIM

Dumba 1pen, 2PIM

Granlund 1pen, 2PIM

Parise 1 pen, 2PIM

Eriksson-Ek 0 pen, 0PIM

Prosser 0 pen, 0PIM

Greenway 0 pen, 0PIM 

[Razblo]

I remember watching some REALLY ticky-tac stuff being called during the Carolina game. What is infuriating to fans, and I imagine the players as well, is that in another game with a different set of referees those penalties do not get called. Are the Wild a 'dirty' team or 8 games into the season have they just had bad refs?

[rottenrefs]

I'm just glad that our players aren't getting shoved into other teams net-minders by opposing players and then we get the box. Then on the other end our d-men getting held while their players run our goalie and we get the call for (insert ghost call here.)

 

Or our guys getting 4, 5, 6 & 7 consecutive cross-checks in 3-5 seconds, then dumped or totally beaten down without a call.

Or boarded, knocked out, picked up off the ice with a spatula while the opposing team gets a 2 minute minor.

Or our guy getting tripped into someone along the boards and we get the 5-minute major for falling into their player who feigned his way into the boards - and popping up a half second later without injury... Or we get the 10-minute game misconduct for the same thing.

 

Crap like that.

 

The ticky-tack bullcrud has been happening for years.

[IllaZilla]

9 hours ago, Razblo said:

I remember watching some REALLY ticky-tac stuff being called during the Carolina game. What is infuriating to fans, and I imagine the players as well, is that in another game with a different set of referees those penalties do not get called. Are the Wild a 'dirty' team or 8 games into the season have they just had bad refs?

 

Different refs are going to call games differently. They shouldn’t, but they do. They’re human. They’re not perfect. It’s easy to criticize the refs when we get to look at a play on a DVR over and over again or from a Birdseye view on TV where our view isn’t obstructed and we can take 30-40 seconds to observe the play and then say “Oh look. Obvious penalty. The refs are incompetent.” But if you ask the players, they’re going to know how most refs call the game. When Kerry Fraser was reffing, players said he called a consistent game from the point of where they knew what they could get away with and what they couldn’t. Fans might have felt that Fraser let a lot of stuff go, but the players knew every game that Fraser reffed that there were certain thing they couldn’t do. 

 

Or how about this. Everyone here complained about the Wild being old and slow. Especially when they brought in Fehr and Hendricks and Read.  Old slow players can’t keep up with young fast players, so they try to hook or hold them to slow them up. Maybe the Wild are getting so many penalties because younger faster teams are skating by them. And there’s only been two games where there has been a real disparity between the Wilds penalties and the opposing teams: Carolina (20-10) and Tampa (12-6). All the other games were within 2 minutes of each other. And In the Nashville game, they had more penalty time than the Wild. 

[Fargocase]

16 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

@Fargocase In the league we are 8th for PK time and 30th for PP time. So yeah, you could argue that we're getting the short end of the stick. But why... a coincidence or conspiracy? Maybe we need a bigger sample size though.

 

For a guy who thinks Leipold is Lucifer and Suter and Parise control every facet of the organization down to towel size, Gatorade flavor and skate sharpening, that's not that hard of a conspiracy theory to believe!  :D

 

But, No, I don't think the zebras sat down and agreed to screw the Wild.   I blame it on two main factors - chitty refereeing and a general lack of respect for Wild players and the organization.    IMO Fenton needs to be communicating with the league and sending some tapes.

 

 

[Fargocase]

10 hours ago, Razblo said:

I remember watching some REALLY ticky-tac stuff being called during the Carolina game. What is infuriating to fans, and I imagine the players as well, is that in another game with a different set of referees those penalties do not get called. Are the Wild a 'dirty' team or 8 games into the season have they just had bad refs?

 

I think that's where the trend started.  IMO the one sided referring was most obvious vs TB.   To answer your questions - No, the Wild are not a dirty or penalty prone team and Yes, we have been getting chitty refereeing the last four games or so IMO.  And that should be brought to the league and specific referees attention.

[EJ0226]

4 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Different refs are going to call games differently. They shouldn’t, but they do. They’re human. They’re not perfect. It’s easy to criticize the refs when we get to look at a play on a DVR over and over again or from a Birdseye view on TV where our view isn’t obstructed and we can take 30-40 seconds to observe the play and then say “Oh look. Obvious penalty. The refs are incompetent.” But if you ask the players, they’re going to know how most refs call the game. When Kerry Fraser was reffing, players said he called a consistent game from the point of where they knew what they could get away with and what they couldn’t. Fans might have felt that Fraser let a lot of stuff go, but the players knew every game that Fraser reffed that there were certain thing they couldn’t do. 

 

Or how about this. Everyone here complained about the Wild being old and slow. Especially when they brought in Fehr and Hendricks and Read.  Old slow players can’t keep up with young fast players, so they try to hook or hold them to slow them up. Maybe the Wild are getting so many penalties because younger faster teams are skating by them. And there’s only been two games where there has been a real disparity between the Wilds penalties and the opposing teams: Carolina (20-10) and Tampa (12-6). All the other games were within 2 minutes of each other. And In the Nashville game, they had more penalty time than the Wild. 

My thoughts exactly. We are the oldest team. Speed is no longer our friend or identity. Look at Koivu. He is getting slower and slower and the penalties are coming from that. Lazy hooks and such to try and slow the guy down. We have a lot of older guys that are slowing down and some that were never fast to start off. My guess is we end up in top ten for penalty minutes this year. But there has been some really poor calling by the refs. Horrible phantom calls and then allowing our guys to basically get mugged. But what do you do? Kind of hard to punish the refs. Factor in the refs are vary so much on calling stuff. It should be if it's a penalty then call it. Doesn't matter if the team is down 10 goals or has been on the PK forever. If they don't want to be in that position then don't commit penalties.

[IllaZilla]

5 hours ago, Fargocase said:

 

I think that's where the trend started.  IMO the one sided referring was most obvious vs TB.   To answer your questions - No, the Wild are not a dirty or penalty prone team and Yes, we have been getting chitty refereeing the last four games or so IMO.  And that should be brought to the league and specific referees attention.

 

Every game is reviewed by the NHL On-ice Officials office and each referee is sent a video review of their performance after every game. Their overall performance is critiqued, pointing out both good and bad calls made and penalties missed. The referees get ranked based on these criteria and the ones with the best rankings get to officiate in the Playoffs. 

 

So yes, the league is well aware of the quality of it's referees and if a referee makes a bad call or a series of bad calls, it is brought to his attention.

[IllaZilla]

48 minutes ago, EJ0226 said:

My thoughts exactly. We are the oldest team. Speed is no longer our friend or identity. Look at Koivu. He is getting slower and slower and the penalties are coming from that. Lazy hooks and such to try and slow the guy down. We have a lot of older guys that are slowing down and some that were never fast to start off. My guess is we end up in top ten for penalty minutes this year. But there has been some really poor calling by the refs. Horrible phantom calls and then allowing our guys to basically get mugged. But what do you do? Kind of hard to punish the refs. Factor in the refs are vary so much on calling stuff. It should be if it's a penalty then call it. Doesn't matter if the team is down 10 goals or has been on the PK forever. If they don't want to be in that position then don't commit penalties.

 

Ah, but there is the age old argument about "Just let 'em play Ref!" What the home fan may claim is a ticky-tack penalty, the visiting fan may feel it was blatant.

I do agree with you, if it's a penalty, call it. And if that is the case, there may be games where one team racks up a number of penalties for whatever reason and the other team hardly has any. Because the players are human too, and their heads might not be in the game, they may be tired, you get a fast line against a slow line, whatever. The team might be having an off night as a whole and thus be prone to more penalties.

I often find that I am far less critical of the referees when I am watching two teams I care little about. Oddly enough, the refs do a pretty good job in those games...

[Fargocase]

7 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

It’s easy to criticize the refs when we get to look at a play on a DVR over and over again or from a Birdseye view on TV where our view isn’t obstructed and we can take 30-40 seconds to observe the play and then say “Oh look. Obvious penalty. The refs are incompetent.”

 

Or how about this. Everyone here complained about the Wild being old and slow. 

 

And there’s only been two games where there has been a real disparity between the Wilds penalties and the opposing teams: Carolina (20-10) and Tampa (12-6). All the other games were within 2 minutes of each other. And In the Nashville game, they had more penalty time than the Wild. 

 

I thought these would be standard replies.

 

1.  Yes, the Refs are human and make mistakes.  I believe, in general, they do as well as they can.  BUT IMO there is a lot of room for improvement.   Again, I don't think there is any deliberate conspiracy to screw the Wild.    However, the game and calls stand for themselves.  For whatever reason my observation, supported by data (which you can just ignore and claim it's too small a sample) is that the Wild have been subjected to slanted calls so far this season.  Normal ebb and flow of poor calls?  Maybe. we'll see.

 

2.  I fully expected someone to trot out the "slow" excuse.   Watch the games is all I can say, other than, again, my eyes tell me this is a false, red herring claim.

 

3.  You presented numbers to try and make the claim there hasn't actually been a disproportionate number of calls against the Wild, in a way to try and support your claim.  In fact, I think they show exactly the opposite.  The Wild had more calls go against them in how many games out of how many games?  And then actually watch the games - calls and non-calls and make that claim again.

[Fargocase]

1 hour ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Every game is reviewed by the NHL On-ice Officials office and each referee is sent a video review of their performance after every game. Their overall performance is critiqued, pointing out both good and bad calls made and penalties missed. The referees get ranked based on these criteria and the ones with the best rankings get to officiate in the Playoffs. 

 

So yes, the league is well aware of the quality of it's referees and if a referee makes a bad call or a series of bad calls, it is brought to his attention.

 

I've read this company line drivel for many years.   And you really believe that happens?    I don't, I think it's a joke.  Explain the years the NHL teams were subjected to the grossly incompetent Mr McGoo ref.  I read Kerry Fraser's self serving, self glorifying book, too.   I doubt there's many organizations so in-bred and so political as the NHL Referees Union.  It's been a good old boys club for many years, protecting many incompetent Refs.   After decades of watching the NHL, I think you just parroted an NHL fairy tale.  Reads well on paper, not applicable to the ice.  

[Fargocase]

1 hour ago, IllaZilla said:

 

 

I often find that I am far less critical of the referees when I am watching two teams I care little about. Oddly enough, the refs do a pretty good job in those games...

 

Absolutely NOT my perception.   Many times I've thought the refereeing was one-sided during games between teams not the Wild.   What are you going to claim next?   Penalties are fairly and objectively called on all players, regardless of their star power or paycheck? 

 

I do believe most of the NHL Refs are sincere, honest, God-Fearing, good family men.   I also see there's a lot of room for improvement and I don't believe the league really is doing all it can when it comes to officiating.  Once you're in, you're in for life.    I do not believe there actually is a legitimate evaluation system.  Do you have any instance where a ref actually was penalized for incompetence?   Mr McGoo wasn't...

[rottenrefs]

11 hours ago, Fargocase said:

 

For a guy who thinks Leipold is Lucifer and Suter and Parise control every facet of the organization down to towel size, Gatorade flavor and skate sharpening, that's not that hard of a conspiracy theory to believe! 

 

Where did anyone say that? Back it up, send proof.

[rottenrefs]

Since 2009 I've complained about poor officiating and I'm not alone. During that time Fargocase, you've been a big advocate that people whining about bad officiating are losers.

 

You've stated players need to play through it... blah blah blah. But now this, an entire thread about bad officiating and when people point out aspects about it all you do is rag on them. That's not anything new either.

[Hockey-78]

I see we're heading to that "high voltage discussion" Alexandron coined and longed for...

 

But yeah, some perceptions in this thread are accurate.

[EJ0226]

20 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Ah, but there is the age old argument about "Just let 'em play Ref!" What the home fan may claim is a ticky-tack penalty, the visiting fan may feel it was blatant.

I do agree with you, if it's a penalty, call it. And if that is the case, there may be games where one team racks up a number of penalties for whatever reason and the other team hardly has any. Because the players are human too, and their heads might not be in the game, they may be tired, you get a fast line against a slow line, whatever. The team might be having an off night as a whole and thus be prone to more penalties.

I often find that I am far less critical of the referees when I am watching two teams I care little about. Oddly enough, the refs do a pretty good job in those games...

I agree for the most part but I have watched games of two teams I care about as much about as I care about baseball, which is zero chits, where I am wondering why the refs are letting one team get away with stuff that the other team is getting called on.

 

But NHL needs to clean up the mess with the refs. One guy shouldn't be allowing some stuff go that another calls every time. 

[IllaZilla]

15 minutes ago, EJ0226 said:

I agree for the most part but I have watched games of two teams I care about as much about as I care about baseball, which is zero chits, where I am wondering why the refs are letting one team get away with stuff that the other team is getting called on.

 

But NHL needs to clean up the mess with the refs. One guy shouldn't be allowing some stuff go that another calls every time. 

 

You are going to get that in any sport, because the refs are human. There is absolutely no way referees are going to call the perfect game, or each referee call the game exactly as the next. In a perfect world, yes, you are correct. Referee A should call the game exactly as Referee B.

 

I found this Russo story about how the NHL is training their referees. I realize it's about five years old, but...

 

NHL director of officiating knows the lonesome road

[EJ0226]

41 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

You are going to get that in any sport, because the refs are human. There is absolutely no way referees are going to call the perfect game, or each referee call the game exactly as the next. In a perfect world, yes, you are correct. Referee A should call the game exactly as Referee B.

 

I found this Russo story about how the NHL is training their referees. I realize it's about five years old, but...

 

NHL director of officiating knows the lonesome road

My point I was trying to point out is that you look at refs in NFL. They are pretty consistent with each other. Most stuff is going to get called by all of them. Those refs aren't going to allow a penalty go by if they can see it.  In the NHL you got some refs that will continue to allow team after team to hook, cross check, hold, etc well the another ref is going to call those. And these refs are watching it happen right in front of them. I mean players literally know what penalty a ref is going to let them get away with. That is the issue. Players should be always thinking if I do this penalty I am going to get called not this ref lets this penalty slide so I will do it.