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Hockey-78

What should be done with Nino?

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9 hours ago, sweetshot said:

I don't think thats correct. Nino and Coyle have pretty much been on identical paths productionwise the past 5 years, even last year when both were injured. Nino is a minus player so far this year but even with his bad start has only one less point than CC.

But his contribution is still more important than what nino is giving us. 

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On 11/15/2018 at 11:16 AM, Fargocase said:

 

 

IMO some of you are way under-estimating how much Coyle has been contributing.   I know lots of people don't understand this, but there's a lot more to the game than what the score sheet shows.  

 

Would the Wild be a better team if Coyle and Nino play better?   Huh?!  WTF?!  Of course the team would be better!   It's not a case of taking minutes from anyone, it's them doing more with the minutes they are already getting.  

 

 

IMO that was due 100% to the roster being totally phucked up by the addition of one of the slowest players in the NHL - Hanzal.  After being forced to watch him lumber up and down the ice, I am 100% of the opinion he's at or very near the top of the list for most over-rated NHL players.  I don't blame BB for that much, he was trying to get a huge square peg into a small round hole.   I blame Fletcher for acquiring a player that was a very, very bad fit.  The team got much worse when Haula was demoted and BB tried to fit Hanzal in.   Another Moulson!  I'm baffled how professional NHL player personnel guys can make such stupid decisions about players.  Even more crazy was Buffalo gave Moulson a big contract after he showed he wasn't even an NHL caliber player any more!

I don't base my opinions on score sheets. I have no issues with Coyle defensively, It's what he's doing and not doing on O. Nino on the other hand...Anyway I just have issues with having each of them on the PP while they aren't on their game. Nice line with Koivu last game, Who'd have thought all 3 would have scored. Keep them together for a while I say but I know they won't once Parise feels better.

 

Clearly those 2 read this forum and wanted to prove me wrong about my comments.. :D 

I was very happy for both of them that they scored. I don't expect some major turnaround just some gain. 

 

Agree fully with the last paragraph especially Haula. Victim of the favoring the vets and other 'established' guys even if they're not on their game. What a waste of someone who consistently showed hustle and budding talent when given the chance.

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Just now, Tomdog said:

But his contribution is still more important than what nino is giving us. 

Coyle certainly hasn't been making the glaring mistakes Nino has been, which have contributed to Nino being -4 so far this year. Which is really poor considering how the Wild have been playing.  Coyle, on the other hand, I think is a plus 5. Some of Nino's and Coyle's +/- stats may have been affected by who they were playing with as well, but I don't think much.

 

Just now, ClusterChuck said:

I don't base my opinions on score sheets. I have no issues with Coyle defensively, It's what he's doing and not doing on O. Nino on the other hand...Anyway I just have issues with having each of them on the PP while they aren't on their game. Nice line with Koivu last game, Who'd have thought all 3 would have scored. Keep them together for a while I say but I know they won't once Parise feels better.

 

Clearly those 2 read this forum and wanted to prove me wrong about my comments.. :D 

I was very happy for both of them that they scored. I don't expect some major turnaround just some gain. 

 

Agree fully with the last paragraph especially Haula. Victim of the favoring the vets and other 'established' guys even if they're not on their game. What a waste of someone who consistently showed hustle and budding talent when given the chance.

True, although Haula wasn't going to see consistent playing time on any of the Wilds top three lines at the time the Wild left him unprotected in the expansion draft--he was still a ways down on the depth chart. The Wild didn't feel they had a regular spot for him where he could get consistent minutes. IMO he was a victim of circumstance more than anything.

He did have a breakout year last year with Vegas, and it may have been the Wilds fault for not seeing that as a possibility while he was here. Although his production has declined significantly(especially goal scoring) so far this season.

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Just now, Tomdog said:

Fargo, I don’t think I have ever read a post of yours that was more accurate!

You hit that square on the head. 

 

18 hours ago, Fargocase said:

Sorry you memory is crap.  Keep working on it and maybe it'll improve 

I'm at the age where my short term memory is crap, I'll admit. But my long term memory is fine.

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Just now, Tomdog said:

But his contribution is still more important than what nino is giving us. 

Definitely. But its not where it should be--although I should know better by now not to expect too much from CC. He is what he is.

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, Fargocase said:

Nino has clearly been playing better the last half dozen games, at least.   Giving up on him or trading him away for little or nothing is ridiculous.   He'd without a freakin doubt be claimed off waivers if the Wild would trey and send him to the AHL, which is a ridiculous suggestion.

 

IMO some of you are way under-estimating how much Coyle has been contributing.   I know lots of people don't understand this, but there's a lot more to the game than what the score sheet shows.  

 

Would the Wild be a better team if Coyle and Nino play better?   Huh?!  WTF?!  Of course the team would be better!   It's not a case of taking minutes from anyone, it's them doing more with the minutes they are already getting.  

 

 

IMO that was due 100% to the roster being totally phucked up by the addition of one of the slowest players in the NHL - Hanzal.  After being forced to watch him lumber up and down the ice, I am 100% of the opinion he's at or very near the top of the list for most over-rated NHL players.  I don't blame BB for that much, he was trying to get a huge square peg into a small round hole.   I blame Fletcher for acquiring a player that was a very, very bad fit.  The team got much worse when Haula was demoted and BB tried to fit Hanzal in.   Another Moulson!  I'm baffled how professional NHL player personnel guys can make such stupid decisions about players.  Even more crazy was Buffalo gave Moulson a big contract after he showed he wasn't even an NHL caliber player any more!

Agreed to a point. But Hanzal only played on one line, the whole team basically had a meltdown.

 

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45 minutes ago, sweetshot said:

Agreed to a point. But Hanzal only played on one line, the whole team basically had a meltdown.

 

Bringing in hanzal and white was a collasal mistake. It changed the rotation of lines completely and changed the third line from a fast quick line into a slow plodding line that couldn't defend up the middle.

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Just now, Tomdog said:

Bringing in hanzal and white was a collasal mistake. It changed the rotation of lines completely and changed the third line from a fast quick line into a slow plodding line that couldn't defend up the middle.

A first and a second for those guys. White played 19 games with the Wild and never played again.

IMO it was GMCF's worst deal.

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It's all about sweaters and scarves baby! Wearing a scarf with a sweater isn't chill or a cool fashion statement, it's sissy!

OMG! O-M-G (Oh My God!) Valley girl moment... Drama laced man fluff might as well be in drag!

 

Didja see NIno at the Vike's playoff game last year? He scored ticks from some player (probably Koivu) and he gots to have given him doz ticks with restrictions on 'em. Wear a scarf! He might have added a man purse as a bonus. Good lord, it just dawned on me, ever since seeing him flash across the screen back then donning a sweater he's been playing like chit! Did he have a scarf? Might have... OMG!

 

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On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:09 AM, sweetshot said:

A first and a second for those guys. White played 19 games with the Wild and never played again.

IMO it was GMCF's worst deal.

 

Definitely one of the worst!   I'd still say the Cam Barker fiasco was the worst.   And Moulson was a huge blunder, too.   Signing Vanek and giving the long term deal to pommer were bad, too.

 

One thing different about the Leddy/Kim Johnsson trade and the Vanek signing - many of us were against them right away.   I hadn't watched Hanzal and Moulson enough to realize what duds they actually were.

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1 hour ago, Fargocase said:

 

Definitely one of the worst!   I'd still say the Cam Barker fiasco was the worst.   And Moulson was a huge blunder, too.   Signing Vanek and giving the long term deal to pommer were bad, too.

 

One thing different about the Leddy/Kim Johnsson trade and the Vanek signing - many of us were against them right away.   I hadn't watched Hanzal and Moulson enough to realize what duds they actually were.

What I never understood was how anyone could watch white and hanzel play, even 1 game, and not realize they weren't worth what we gave up.

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Back to the title of this thread - What to do with Nino?

 

Exactly what they're doing right now - leave him on a line with Fehr and Ted Brown's kid!  Makes the line a legit scoring threat.

 

Give near equal time with the EEK-Greenway-Foligno line.

 

In the 3rd period, make up a new line from those two lines - whoever is play best, throw them together and throw them out for key minutes towards end of the game.  First two periods, grind the other team down rolling the four lines and not over-working old guys like Staal, Mikko, and Parise.  Third period shorten the bench.

 

The six guys on the two bottom lines - BB needs to channel Lemaire and change lines on the fly; throw whoever is playing best out there and sit the others later in the game.

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Fargocase said:

 

In the 3rd period, make up a new line from those two lines - whoever is play best, throw them together and throw them out for key minutes towards end of the game.  First two periods, grind the other team down rolling the four lines and not over-working old guys like Staal, Mikko, and Parise.  Third period shorten the bench.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with that. Why not?

Leave the first 2 lines alone and focus (like you said) on the best 3 of the 6 .

Basically the best 2 and Foligno, Since he plays hard and smart pretty much every game.

Depending on how that game is going and even the schedule would determine how soon into the 3rd you do this.

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On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:31 PM, Tomdog said:

Bringing in hanzal and white was a collasal mistake. It changed the rotation of lines completely and changed the third line from a fast quick line into a slow plodding line that couldn't defend up the middle.

 

I was reading this and thought I had posted it!  😁 BTW- I agree!

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Not passing the eye test offensively nor defensively which is confirmed by his 727th best +/- rating. -9 in a team which is 3rd in the conference. Bench him for a game, BB.

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1 hour ago, Hockey-78 said:

Not passing the eye test offensively nor defensively which is confirmed by his 727th best +/- rating. -9 in a team which is 3rd in the conference. Bench him for a game, BB.

 

And replace him with which Matt, Read or Hendricks?

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12 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

And replace him with which Matt, Read or Hendricks?

Can either of them be worse defensively? And since offensively Nino's production has been insignificant it might be addition by subtraction. In the grand scheme of things one game without Nino means very little to the team but might do some good for him.

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4 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

Can either of them be worse defensively? And since offensively Nino's production has been insignificant it might be addition by subtraction. In the grand scheme of things one game without Nino means very little to the team but might do some good for him.

 

He has the same production as Coyle in over two minutes less average TOI (12 pts in 14:25 to 12 pts in 16:53).

 

He has more power play points than Coyle with Coyle having more power play TOI (5 pts in 60:59 to Coyle's 1 pt in 61:20)

 

He has less PIM than Coyle (6-8)

 

His +/- wasn't that bad (-3 through 21 games) until the Ottawa game on 11/21 (-3) and the Arizona game the other night (-3). And as @Fargocase often points out, +/- is a rather dubious stat, since it all depends on who else was on the ice. A player could be skating off the ice for a line change and if the offense scores before he gets off the ice, he gets a minus, even though he had zero to do with the play.

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21 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

He has the same production as Coyle in over two minutes less average TOI (12 pts in 14:25 to 12 pts in 16:53).

 

He has more power play points than Coyle with Coyle having more power play TOI (5 pts in 60:59 to Coyle's 1 pt in 61:20)

 

He has less PIM than Coyle (6-8)

 

His +/- wasn't that bad (-3 through 21 games) until the Ottawa game on 11/21 (-3) and the Arizona game the other night (-3). And as @Fargocase often points out, +/- is a rather dubious stat, since it all depends on who else was on the ice. A player could be skating off the ice for a line change and if the offense scores before he gets off the ice, he gets a minus, even though he had zero to do with the play.

In Nino's case that stat isn't misleading since (obviously you've watched a lot of games so you already know this) he's been turning over the puck a lot and/or been quilty of lazy defensive play. Many posters have agreed on this. Coyle is +8, that's 17 goals gap in only 24 games. That's a huge difference!

 

Nino with Parise and Koivu and Coyle with EEk and Greenway - you think it's incomprehensible why Coyle hasn't scored more? Less offensive talent, less points.

 

Nino earning $2 mil. more so the expectations are higher, too.

 

Granny is a much better comparison. Similar age, both signed their contracts 2017 and their salaries are almost equal. I won't go there though. 😉

 

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On 11/29/2018 at 8:01 PM, IllaZilla said:

 

And replace him with which Matt, Read or Hendricks?

Fenton replaced him with Rask. Happy?

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1 hour ago, Hockey-78 said:

Fenton replaced him with Rask. Happy?

 

Ridiculous to compare Rask to Read or Hendricks.   Much better player.  I'm totally OK with moving Nino for Rask.  But feel free to start complaint because Rask will NOT score 40 goals.  He's a decent 2 way Center.  Be a very good 3rd Line Center on pretty much any team.

 

Big question is are they going to move Coyle back to RW?  SOS.  Same old chit, jerk him around some more...  

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NN with 2 goals on 3 shots and +1 through 2 periods.  Even strength goals.  Still feel good about Rask clanking the post in game 1 and the overall trade?  How many games played before Rask scores 2 in one game?  Bet it doesn’t happen for the rest of the season.  That’s 4 goals in the last week for NN.  Rask has one in 25+ games all year - great trade value for a slow skater that doesn’t score and plays soft.  No one disputes that NN is streaky, but it would be nice if Rask even had a streak this year. 

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3 hours ago, EmptyShelf said:

NN with 2 goals on 3 shots and +1 through 2 periods.  Even strength goals.  Still feel good about Rask clanking the post in game 1 and the overall trade?  How many games played before Rask scores 2 in one game?  Bet it doesn’t happen for the rest of the season.  That’s 4 goals in the last week for NN.  Rask has one in 25+ games all year - great trade value for a slow skater that doesn’t score and plays soft.  No one disputes that NN is streaky, but it would be nice if Rask even had a streak this year. 

 

Put any proper goalscorer beside Aho and you'll get results. During WCJ a few years back, everyone were hyping Laine and Puljujarvi, pretty much ignoring the fact that without Aho, they wouldn't had played that well.

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Nino was not performing in MN. Fenton is trying the change of scenery effect for both players.

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