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Hockey-78

What should be done with Nino?

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25 minutes ago, TonyOday said:

Nino was not performing in MN. Fenton is trying the change of scenery effect for both players.

 

that's fine but couldn't you get fair value in return Nino is a much better player. Rask is just another slow soft perimeter player another passenger on the wild bus. 

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1 hour ago, Bear said:

 

that's fine but couldn't you get fair value in return Nino is a much better player. Rask is just another slow soft perimeter player another passenger on the wild bus. 

Honestly, I don't think there was really much people were willing to trade for Nino in case his slump was a sign of things to come. I think Fenton could see having Nino stay wasn't going to do anything to help the Wild or Nino out. Who knows, maybe Nino talked to Fenton about maybe playing elsewhere. It sucks no matter what.

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5 hours ago, EJ0226 said:

Honestly, I don't think there was really much people were willing to trade for Nino in case his slump was a sign of things to come. I think Fenton could see having Nino stay wasn't going to do anything to help the Wild or Nino out. Who knows, maybe Nino talked to Fenton about maybe playing elsewhere. It sucks no matter what.

If Vegas can see the light that Haula and Tuch can be a lot better on another team (because the Wild had no effing clue how to use them) then everyone else in the league seeing Nino's production on our nutcase driven team could likewise read between the lines too.

 

Hell, if fans like us can figure it out so can others.

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My thoughts exactly.  Other teams know that the Wild have 'wet down their leg' in the drafts, and late season trades for years now.  There is no big surprise here.  We misuse players to protect an aging, slow, arrogant core.  In the process, players will be available that may better serve another teams needs.  Yet, if the Wild are dumb enough to take a stiff with a pulse (and they are), why not wait them out to steal a player like NN?  He has 4 Gs in the last week.  He is streaky like most goal scorers.  Good for NN, good for the Canes.   

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I would give Rask and Aberg a few more games, but if last night vs Vegas is the norm, it doesn't look good.

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So far I like the fact that they're playing Aberg with Parise. Two pretty quick, agile type players with a motor that just won't quit. It's hard to cover both of them and right out of the chute it's sparked some chemistry.

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53 minutes ago, rottenrefs said:

So far I like the fact that they're playing Aberg with Parise. Two pretty quick, agile type players with a motor that just won't quit. It's hard to cover both of them and right out of the chute it's sparked some chemistry.

I like the speed and shiftiness of Aberg, but they don't handle these guys well (Haula), unless they have an 'in' with CL or the Core.  Also, if he doesn't set up some easy goals for ZP soon, or bury some goals himself, he will free-fall down the lineup. I also worry about us getting smaller as playoffs get closer and the game changes.   I wanted to send out a Search and Rescue Team for Rask in the last game.  But alas, he can win face-offs at a reasonable clip and legally - should buy him a new contract with the Wild if 9 is any indicator......

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2 hours ago, EmptyShelf said:

I like the speed and shiftiness of Aberg, but they don't handle these guys well (Haula), unless they have an 'in' with CL or the Core.  Also, if he doesn't set up some easy goals for ZP soon, or bury some goals himself, he will free-fall down the lineup. I also worry about us getting smaller as playoffs get closer and the game changes.   I wanted to send out a Search and Rescue Team for Rask in the last game.  But alas, he can win face-offs at a reasonable clip and legally - should buy him a new contract with the Wild if 9 is any indicator......

I've been saying similar things for many years regarding how the Wild handle newer players. Where we differ is when younger players start moving forward too fast the team displaces them. They can get as many assists as they want, but once they start scoring too often line changes are imminent. Typically those line changes are to spur someone else, but what team in this day and age break up lines proven to rack up 4-7 points in one game, half a dozen more in the next 2-4 games, then they blow it up? All too often history here has repeated itself in that fashion. But yes, only one or two players out of dozens find themselves seeing more ice time but only if they become 'team players.' Wild team players = do all the dirty work for the fat guys.

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42 minutes ago, rottenrefs said:

I've been saying similar things for many years regarding how the Wild handle newer players. Where we differ is when younger players start moving forward too fast the team displaces them. They can get as many assists as they want, but once they start scoring too often line changes are imminent. Typically those line changes are to spur someone else, but what team in this day and age break up lines proven to rack up 4-7 points in one game, half a dozen more in the next 2-4 games, then they blow it up? All too often history here has repeated itself in that fashion. But yes, only one or two players out of dozens find themselves seeing more ice time but only if they become 'team players.' Wild team players = do all the dirty work for the fat guys.

I don't disagree with these points.  You are correct, and this why I said 'easy goals for ZP.'  Gotta feed the Country Club members to their liking.  Scoring can be suicide if 9, 11, and 20 feel pressured to step up.  Granlund has conquered the Club due to deft passing skills.  Zucker still finds himself on the wrong side of the Club, as does Coyle.  As far as young players - it defies logic that we are the ONLY team whom likes to penalize goal production in young players.  Its as if goals don't determine wins.  Face-offs, 2 way defense (even if you cannot score) rule playing time.  The whole model is built with Koivu as the 'perfect player' by no one's standards but CL.  We need a new owner (or his wife to intervene).  The guy falls in love with inept over-the-hill players and tries to force success through them....Recipe for Round 1 elimination

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12 hours ago, EmptyShelf said:

I don't disagree with these points.  You are correct, and this why I said 'easy goals for ZP.'  Gotta feed the Country Club members to their liking.  Scoring can be suicide if 9, 11, and 20 feel pressured to step up.  Granlund has conquered the Club due to deft passing skills.  Zucker still finds himself on the wrong side of the Club, as does Coyle.  As far as young players - it defies logic that we are the ONLY team whom likes to penalize goal production in young players.  Its as if goals don't determine wins.  Face-offs, 2 way defense (even if you cannot score) rule playing time.  The whole model is built with Koivu as the 'perfect player' by no one's standards but CL.  We need a new owner (or his wife to intervene).  The guy falls in love with inept over-the-hill players and tries to force success through them....Recipe for Round 1 elimination

Not a fan of Koivu myself but at least he didn't go off and hire somebody to help him and his best friend on the PP and completely ignore the fact you have 3 other guys out there. Maybe you should start working with all of your teammates instead of just your best friend. I think CL is more in love with "do no wrong" Parise and "greatest defenseman" Suter.
Back when the Wild only had Koivu they went the defense first style as they knew that they were not built to score. After Parise and Suter signed they decided to go offense first and started to slip on the defense side. After awhile the d was leaky so they tried to sign named players that were offense first like Pominville and Vanek but these guys were shells of their former selves. The fix, keep trying to find offensive guys instead of drafting and developing. So Koivu became that step child where one of their biological parents isn't in the picture so it became a "you do your thing and we will do our thing and live happily together" ordeal with the other biological parent and step parent after they had kids together. The franchise tried to morph into something they weren't ever due to those two and now we are seeing the pay off which sucks.

The Wild live or die on Parise and Suter and are doing the slow death now.

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On 1/21/2019 at 11:21 AM, EJ0226 said:

Honestly, I don't think there was really much people were willing to trade for Nino in case his slump was a sign of things to come. I think Fenton could see having Nino stay wasn't going to do anything to help the Wild or Nino out. Who knows, maybe Nino talked to Fenton about maybe playing elsewhere. It sucks no matter what.

^ This.

 

See, I think this is what people are losing sight of. Were there any other teams willing to take on a $5M/year player that was mired in a season long slump? If so, what were they offering? Was Rask the best offer? Was Rask the only offer?

 

Fans want "fair value" for Nino, but what exactly is "fair value"? Reminds me of when I used to collect baseball cards. People would claim a certain rookie card was worth hundreds of dollars. But it's only true value was what someone else was willing to give up for that card.

 

Are fans over-valuing Nino?

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5 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

^ This.

 

See, I think this is what people are losing sight of. Were there any other teams willing to take on a $5M/year player that was mired in a season long slump? If so, what were they offering? Was Rask the best offer? Was Rask the only offer?

 

Fans want "fair value" for Nino, but what exactly is "fair value"? Reminds me of when I used to collect baseball cards. People would claim a certain rookie card was worth hundreds of dollars. But it's only true value was what someone else was willing to give up for that card.

 

Are fans over-valuing Nino?

There is a common denominator with all GM's getting fired.  It isn't always wins/losses (that usually takes out coaches), it is the mismanagement of assets.  Whether it is draft picks, core veterans, developing players, or critical back-ups.  You might believe that Rask was all they could get - that may be true.  However, you NEVER sell at the bottom.  You don't do this even to get the attention of your team, as you waste an asset that could have more value with a bit of patience (particularly post injury and with the 'line mate shuffle'.  NN had both a lower body injury and something wrong with his shoulder last year.  How does Suter really look this year?  To me, came back to soon post injury - and is playing like it.  There is no urgency to dump an asset for diminished value.  It is not like they had some goal scorers on Wild or Iowa Wild kicking down the door.  It was simply stupid to sell at this time.  No one likely wanted to pay alot for NN this summer because he was coming off serious injuries AND is paid $5MM.  It wasn't just performance and $5MM.  Most intelligent GMs do NOT trade for injured players with prime assets.  Lastly, someone posted the write-up of Fenton's trade discussions and impatience with Canes GM - this is how NOT to make important asset management decisions.  IF the Canes only thought NN was worth Rask (12 minute TOI with Canes and on Line 3/4), then WHY are they playing him on Line 1/2?  The answer; they know he is a solid asset and is starting to round into shape.  They don't have a significantly worse Top 6 that the Wild (whom think they have Stars).  Riddle me that?

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7 hours ago, EmptyShelf said:

There is a common denominator with all GM's getting fired.  It isn't always wins/losses (that usually takes out coaches), it is the mismanagement of assets.  Whether it is draft picks, core veterans, developing players, or critical back-ups.  You might believe that Rask was all they could get - that may be true.  However, you NEVER sell at the bottom.  You don't do this even to get the attention of your team, as you waste an asset that could have more value with a bit of patience (particularly post injury and with the 'line mate shuffle'.  NN had both a lower body injury and something wrong with his shoulder last year.  How does Suter really look this year?  To me, came back to soon post injury - and is playing like it.  There is no urgency to dump an asset for diminished value.  It is not like they had some goal scorers on Wild or Iowa Wild kicking down the door.  It was simply stupid to sell at this time.  No one likely wanted to pay alot for NN this summer because he was coming off serious injuries AND is paid $5MM.  It wasn't just performance and $5MM.  Most intelligent GMs do NOT trade for injured players with prime assets.  Lastly, someone posted the write-up of Fenton's trade discussions and impatience with Canes GM - this is how NOT to make important asset management decisions.  IF the Canes only thought NN was worth Rask (12 minute TOI with Canes and on Line 3/4), then WHY are they playing him on Line 1/2?  The answer; they know he is a solid asset and is starting to round into shape.  They don't have a significantly worse Top 6 that the Wild (whom think they have Stars).  Riddle me that?

 

Because they didn't have another top-6 LW other than Svechnikov. Nino has proven he can fill that role, both in past and present.

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15 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

^ This.

 

See, I think this is what people are losing sight of. Were there any other teams willing to take on a $5M/year player that was mired in a season long slump? If so, what were they offering? Was Rask the best offer? Was Rask the only offer?

 

Fans want "fair value" for Nino, but what exactly is "fair value"? Reminds me of when I used to collect baseball cards. People would claim a certain rookie card was worth hundreds of dollars. But it's only true value was what someone else was willing to give up for that card.

 

Are fans over-valuing Nino?

But the league will recognize Nino is the 3rd former Wild player (He, Haula & Tuch) to do better after leaving the Wild.

 

What will a $5 million player get them?

Koivu $5 million this year ($6 million last year)

44 games, 7 goals, 21 assists, 28 points, 818 TOI

 

Nino

49 games, 11 goals, 14 assists, 25 points, 722 TOI

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NN had another two goal night last night in a win.  Rotten is right.  The smart GM will just line up to pilfer the Wild of their assets.  NN already has 2 two goal games in the four, and he had 18 TOI last night.  Did he ever play 18 minutes for Wild?  This is not a coincidence, as he was always one of the Wilds most productive players in TOI.  He also had 8 shots last night.  Maybe they took the handcuffs off him that he was made to wear here.  We look like a joke across the NHL.  Has Rask made ANY impact yet.  Horse$hit trade on any level!!

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19 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

^ This.

 

See, I think this is what people are losing sight of. Were there any other teams willing to take on a $5M/year player that was mired in a season long slump? If so, what were they offering? Was Rask the best offer? Was Rask the only offer?

 

Fans want "fair value" for Nino, but what exactly is "fair value"? Reminds me of when I used to collect baseball cards. People would claim a certain rookie card was worth hundreds of dollars. But it's only true value was what someone else was willing to give up for that card.

 

Are fans over-valuing Nino?

For sure but I do have to wonder, why trade Nino then knowing he has shown many times he can be a very nice asset for somebody who has shown he really doesn't have much to offer but 4th line minutes. I mean, I do think Nino needed a change of scenery but maybe he would have snapped out of it here. Still, as a GM, why in the world would you every settle for the lowest offer for a guy who has proven he can be a very nice asset? We will see what happens this off season but this trade is already one in the negative side for Fenton, I believe.

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12 minutes ago, EmptyShelf said:

NN had another two goal night last night in a win.  Rotten is right.  The smart GM will just line up to pilfer the Wild of their assets.  NN already has 2 two goal games in the four, and he had 18 TOI last night.  Did he ever play 18 minutes for Wild?  This is not a coincidence, as he was always one of the Wilds most productive players in TOI.  He also had 8 shots last night.  Maybe they took the handcuffs off him that he was made to wear here.  We look like a joke across the NHL.  Has Rask made ANY impact yet.  Horse$hit trade on any level!!

I said it before I will say it again. They built the team around to nourish and develop the core guys. We have known for many years now that the core guys are never going to do anything to make this team a threat so what does the franchise do? Do they say, "We made a mistake now we got to focus on the future"? Nope, instead they keep throwing junk spare parts at the core hoping it will work and fix something. They need a regulator for their alternator so what do they do? They get a solenoid from another team. It doesn't work but they pretend they are onto something. They go and find some spare parts that other teams left laying around (aka free agents or rentals) all of which are not the regulator they need. So they buy their own parts (aka draft players) fully knowing that they bought spark plugs, stators, etc but not the regulator they need for their alternator. So when their new parts don't fit and do what they want them to do instead of what the parts are made to do they throw it away to another team where we get to watch that team install the part in the correct area and work fantastic. In the meantime the core parts are now starting to break down. Instead of trying to fix what was really needed to make the whole system work they dinked around so long the core parts that possibly could have worked great with the correct other parts installed are now failing and need to be junked.

The Wild are literally the backyard drunk and blind mechanic who doesn't understand how to do a oil change. Fenton with this trade and the first mini off season appears to be the guy that is fueling his gas engine with diesel. Ugh......

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Boy,  those 29 other teams who didn't want Nino and his 5.25M  per, sure must be kicking themselves now!

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I don't believe 29 teams didn't want him. I believe this is the smokescreen to cover their stupidity.  Fenton is a newbie, and acted like one, and got fleeced.  Simple as that.  

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So, you're saying Fenton only offered Nino to a couple of teams?   Source please.

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Looking back on when this thread started early in the season. Some concern on NN's play but we had other's struggling too.

Many great points on what may help, What to do, Trade or not, etc. Not that much activity overall through the months (Thread wise) 0 in Dec ...All the while we all were still wondering what is NN's problem...

( 1 key point wasn't Nino's TOI but what he was doing with it. )

BOOM, Nino get's traded and people act like they were blindsided. We all knew that Fenton had Nino in trade discussions over the summer and it continued. So where was all this concern and comments up until the trade happened?

 

When the Wild originally got Nino, Wasn't the knock on him exactly how he was playing this season?

Yet Nino proved everybody 'wrong' once with a new team and a fresh start..

It's history repeating itself.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ClusterChuck

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5 hours ago, 4Check said:

So, you're saying Fenton only offered Nino to a couple of teams?   Source please.

That's kind of an obtuse answer.  Can you source the 29 teams that were offered NN?  How about can you prove that Rask is the BEST OFFER they could get?  Sources please.  Your points have no less supposition than mine.....

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4 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

Looking back on when this thread started early in the season. Some concern on NN's play but we had other's struggling too.

Many great points on what may help, What to do, Trade or not, etc. Not that much activity overall through the months (Thread wise) 0 in Dec ...All the while we all were still wondering what is NN's problem...

( 1 key point wasn't Nino's TOI but what he was doing with it. )

BOOM, Nino get's traded and people act like they were blindsided. We all knew that Fenton had Nino in trade discussions over the summer and it continued. So where was all this concern and comments up until the trade happened?

 

When the Wild originally got Nino, Wasn't the knock on him exactly how he was playing this season?

Yet Nino proved everybody 'wrong' once with a new team and a fresh start..

It's history repeating itself.

 

 

 

 

 

NN played on the 4th line at 19 years of age for the Islanders - a poorly run team with few wins and a high goal differential - I don't put any credence into this previous analysis of a teenager on the bottom line of a bad team (how did Dumba look at the same point).?  Moreover, NN was clearly still showing some tentative impacts from post-injury (just like Parise and Suter), all the while being moved around from Line 1, 2, 3, and 4.  There was little continuity, and little consistency of playing time.  How does that embody a sample size worth determining future outcomes.  Hasn't EVERY Wild player found themselves in significant slumps over the past few years?  How many were moved around to the extent of NN?  It is a BOGUS argument.  I was aware that they could trade him ALL year.  I did not think the new GM would be ignorant enough to trade him at the lowest performance end of his capabilities when he was a rare asset without a NMC/NTC.  We will be looking to buyout Rask within 1-2 years, playing our one chip to get out of his additional 3 years, and I will be here to 'eat crow' if I am wrong.  $4MM is a lot of money for a few face-off wins, a bottom line C, whom is the 'invisible man' on most shifts by game 4 of his 'fresh start.'  Meanwhile, NN is the Gold Coin, the Canes found in the street gutter in exchange for pocket lint.  

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47 minutes ago, EmptyShelf said:

 

That's kind of an obtuse answer.  Can you source the 29 teams that were offered NN?  How about can you prove that Rask is the BEST OFFER they could get?  Sources please.  Your points have no less supposition than mine.....

Hey, no hard feelings now o k?😊    But, truthfully in that post,  I didn't make any points about anything .   You stated that you didn't believe that 29 other teams didn't want him.  And I simply was wondering what was your source for that assertion.    

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40 minutes ago, 4Check said:

Hey, no hard feelings now o k?😊    But, truthfully in that post,  I didn't make any points about anything .   You stated that you didn't believe that 29 other teams didn't want him.  And I simply was wondering what was your source for that assertion.    

I don't get 'hard feelings' from a message board....GMs often take a lazy route and contact just a few trade partners - ones that they know well, ones that are responsive, or ones that may not have a salty reputation for tough dealing.  I am not saying the Canes were the ONLY call made by Fenton.  I am, however, saying that many 'make a move to make a move,' and they often tap a familiar (or easier) partner to do so.  I have become acquainted with a few former GMs in my business career (one NHL and one NFL), and you would be quite surprised at the information they provide about the running of sports franchises - there isn't a great deal of 'cross league' discussions or trading.  Ever noticed how many deals are done between the same partners?  Familiarity breeds comfort.  You can believe it, or choose not to do so.......Fenton whiffed, and it will become more obvious over time 

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      I've been saying similar things for many years regarding how the Wild handle newer players. Where we differ is when younger players start moving forward too fast the team displaces them. They can get as many assists as they want, but once they start scoring too often line changes are imminent. Typically those line changes are to spur someone else, but what team in this day and age break up lines proven to rack up 4-7 points in one game, half a dozen more in the next 2-4 games, then they blow it
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      ^ This.   See, I think this is what people are losing sight of. Were there any other teams willing to take on a $5M/year player that was mired in a season long slump? If so, what were they offering? Was Rask the best offer? Was Rask the only offer?   Fans want "fair value" for Nino, but what exactly is "fair value"? Reminds me of when I used to collect baseball cards. People would claim a certain rookie card was worth hundreds of dollars. But it's only true value was what som
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      But the league will recognize Nino is the 3rd former Wild player (He, Haula & Tuch) to do better after leaving the Wild.   What will a $5 million player get them? Koivu $5 million this year ($6 million last year) 44 games, 7 goals, 21 assists, 28 points, 818 TOI   Nino 49 games, 11 goals, 14 assists, 25 points, 722 TOI
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