Fire Hextall, gut senior management and the coaching staff

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Digityman said:

I'd like to see Jake and Simmer moved.

 

 

This may hurt them even more but it could be a huge move towards Jack Hughes too......where they are clearly headed even with them.

[Cheesesteak]

Hell...promote Gritty to coach, can't be worse

[ruxpin]

The more I'm thinking about this the more I'm coming to the conclusion it's not simply the coach but the result of the coach trying to compensate for the goaltending -- which is ultimately on Hextall. 

 

The centers ARE a mess. And so is Ghost. Why? Because the centers are not staying low in the offensive zone and--Patrick and Coots in particular--not mucking it up in the slot to cheat back to hedge against being caught. 

 

Ghost is doing less going low or pinching much for the same reason.  It's possible they're doing this on their own. Whether deliberate or not, it's a natural response to the knowledge that any mistake, any odd man or often even man rush the other way will end up past the incompetent sieves in our net. 

 

It's just as likely that this is per coach directive much for the same reason. 

 

The question remains--bluntly--how does a competent GM look at his goaltending this past summer and not move to fix this while leaving $10M in cap space on the table? 

 

How does that same competent GM go through the summer knowing he doesn't have a 3C  and not move to correct that in any sober way? Again, with the $10M sitting there. 

 

I know he doesn't want a contract that blocks kids and doesn't want to move said kids for it, but that effectively and explicitly tosses this season away. 

 

Meanwhile, the tickets are still full price. 

 

You see the results in the stands during the game. The last game, the stands had all the energy of a wake.  

 

There was apparently zero thought of putting out a quality product this season. And there's no good reason for it. 

 

I do like what Hextall has done with draft picks.  But it sucks that the most exciting time of year is the lead up to the draft.  Only to keep saying, "boy, in five years!" 

 

I've been uncharacteristically calling for patience the last couple of years. Those who have been around for awhile--especially those from the silly.com days--know how out of character that really it.  But the patience has waned.   At this point, supplement through trade. Move out "leadership" that isn't leading. 

 

Do SOMETHING other than punish kids you yourself have damaged only to bring up other soon to be damaged kids.  Wake the hell up and get the lumina out of neutral and go get us some damn halibut! 

 

We're starving! 

[brelic]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

The more I'm thinking about this the more I'm coming to the conclusion it's not simply the coach but the result of the coach trying to compensate for the goaltending -- which is ultimately on Hextall. 

 

The centers ARE a mess. And so is Ghost. Why? Because the centers are not staying low in the offensive zone and--Patrick and Coots in particular--not mucking it up in the slot to cheat back to hedge against being caught. 

 

Ghost is doing less going low or pinching much for the same reason.  It's possible they're doing this on their own. Whether deliberate or not, it's a natural response to the knowledge that any mistake, any odd man or often even man rush the other way will end up past the incompetent sieves in our net. 

 

It's just as likely that this is per coach directive much for the same reason. 

 

The question remains--bluntly--how does a competent GM look at his goaltending this past summer and not move to fix this while leaving $10M in cap space on the table? 

 

How does that same competent GM go through the summer knowing he doesn't have a 3C  and not move to correct that in any sober way? Again, with the $10M sitting there. 

 

I know he doesn't want a contract that blocks kids and doesn't want to move said kids for it, but that effectively and explicitly tosses this season away. 

 

Meanwhile, the tickets are still full price. 

 

You see the results in the stands during the game. The last game, the stands had all the energy of a wake.  

 

There was apparently zero thought of putting out a quality product this season. And there's no good reason for it. 

 

I do like what Hextall has done with draft picks.  But it sucks that the most exciting time of year is the lead up to the draft.  Only to keep saying, "boy, in five years!" 

 

I've been uncharacteristically calling for patience the last couple of years. Those who have been around for awhile--especially those from the silly.com days--know how out of character that really it.  But the patience has waned.   At this point, supplement through trade. Move out "leadership" that isn't leading. 

 

Do SOMETHING other than punish kids you yourself have damaged only to bring up other soon to be damaged kids.  Wake the hell up and get the lumina out of neutral and go get us some damn halibut! 

 

We're starving! 

 

Great post! I see a few things slightly differently than you, but your post really captures the zeitgeist of what’s going on. Frustrated, hopeful, puzzled, impatient. 

 

 

 

[fan4ever]

20 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Meanwhile, the tickets are still full price. 

 

You see the results in the stands during the game. The last game, the stands had all the energy of a wake.  

 

There was apparently zero thought of putting out a quality product this season. And there's no good reason for it. 

 

No...look over here....This is Gritty!!!

[FD19372]

21 hours ago, Cheesesteak said:

Hell...promote Gritty to coach, can't be worse

How about putting him in goal?

[OccamsRazor]

I will say this i am down with firing the coaching staff and i mean everyone.

 

However i am not ready to can Hextall. This is his first hire and a GM.

 

Can't fault him for thinking outside the box hiring a college coach.

 

In fact the Stars have done the same when they hired former Flyer Jim Montgomery.

 

Except in Jim's case he has won the national title.

 

But he has coach a team teams to to 3 titles in the USHL too.

 

Two Clark Cups and one Anderson Cups.

 

So dude has won at every level he has coached at. That is what you want in an impressive resume.

 

I think no matter what Hak will remain coach till the offseason. I think Ron will evaluate and go from there then.

[Poulin20]

16 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I will say this i am down with firing the coaching staff and i mean everyone.

 

However i am not ready to can Hextall. This is his first hire and a GM.

 

Can't fault him for thinking outside the box hiring a college coach.

 

In fact the Stars have done the same when they hired former Flyer Jim Montgomery.

 

Except in Jim's case he has won the national title.

 

But he has coach a team teams to 3 titles in the USHL. Two Clark Cups and one Anderson Cups.

 

So dude has won at every level he has coached at. That is what you want in an impressive resume.

 

I think no matter what Hak will remain coach till the offseason. I think Ron will evaluate and go from there then.

I agree, I'm much more down on Hak than Hex.  I think that Hex has done a good job trying to manage the cap situation and grow the team from the ground up, the way the NHL has required with their hands on approach to parity.  Hex has misfired a few times with players and I think with Hak as well.  I will start to lose faith in him if he begins demonstrating blind loyalty to Hak and leaves him there too long as the Eagles did with Andy Reid.  He also needs to figure out how to deal with the aging forward core and find a way to bring in new young blood without gutting the team and setting us back another decade or 3.

[King Knut]

On 10/30/2018 at 2:57 PM, vis said:

Everyone shares some blame for sure.  Hextall failing to address 3C and the PK are issues along with rolling with Elliott and Neuvirth the past couple of years.  I think Hextall has not been good with bringing in talent at the NHL level, especially when they sit at $10m below the cap.  In fact, at times last year I gave Hakstol credit for getting the results he did from that roster.  Finally, the core has been an issue going back to the Laviolette days.  Problem is, the quick fix is to fire the coach.  But there are other issues that are more challenging to address.  And probably point the finger more directly at the GM.  And I think those issues are unlikely to be addressed any time soon (i.e., by trading players or firing the GM).

 

Do you really think it's a lack of desire and a problem with the core that's leaving talented players on the other team unchecked and unchallenged with the puck going in on our aging mediocre goalie?  Or is it because they're on the other side of the ice as prescribed by their coach for some unknown reason?  Is it a lack of compete that leaves players wide open in front of the Flyers net to screen the goalie or receive an easy pass for an easy goal?    Is it a lack of compete that has the best defenders on the team, regularly not just pinching, but literally DRIVING TO THE NET AHEAD OF THE LW, but with NO ONE COVERING THEIR POSITION BEHIND THEM?  Is it lack of compete that has them not challenging the puck or even attempting to shut down a passing lane on the PK for 3+ years?

 

No.  Your theory is that all the fault of the guys scoring more than a point per game, so therefore the guy who hasn't replaced them is the real culprit?  

 

A) the 3C has been the least of this team's problems, so I'm not concerned about his inaction there. I was when he didn't do anything about it, but to be honest, whether it was Misha, or Weal  (I have no idea why it hasn't been laughton yet) the third line hasn't been an issue.  Maybe they'd be scoring more if they had someone better at C, and maybe Simmer needs a real star to score at even strength, but honestly, they're not losing because of that.   The long and short is that like Tavares, no real star is going to sign with the Flyers to play third line minutes and the third and 4th lines are not the problem, but I'll get back to that later.

B) He was simply not able to improve from the NHL level until this past season because of the cap and he did just that with JVR.

C) The goaltending situation is complicated and it all goes back to Mason being a problem and Hextall NEEDING to sign Neuvirth in season before the vegas draft.  That is why the team has too many meh goalies right now.  If you want to say he should have cut lose Stolarz, then say that, but that was the only other option and at the time Stolarz had not yet gotten hurt and looked very good in backing up at the NHL level.

D) You are 100% spot on correct about addressing the PK.  BUT THAT is also attributable to Hakstol.  Unless we have some documented proof that Hakstol is begging Hextall to fire Lappy and give him someone who knows what he's doing on the PK... but even if that's the case, that only tells us that HAKSTOL DOESN'T KNOW **** about the PK and therefore shouldn't be an NHL coach to begin with.  

E) The core has been a problem since Laviolette... but that also suggests that the core has been a problem since Holmgren traded away the ACTUAL CORE of the team and replaced it with a handful of magic beans and declared them to be the new core and it's never gelled because they haven't been very good since.  This of course could all have a great deal to do with Pronger's career ending earlier than anticipated, but then again, blaming the failure of a team in 2018 on a 37 year old getting hurt and losing his NHL twilight years seven years ago.  

 

 

The fact is, the whole situation with the PK and the team being so miserable right now is indicative of a larger mystery that has been bugging me for a long ass time and I'm no closer to sorting it out.  Hextall and Hakstol's reactions to widely perceived and consistent problems has never made sense to me.  It just doesn't add up.  The PK is just the most glaring of these, but it's one example of many many things that are going wrong all the time and that the team is openly refusing to address.

 

I don't know what the solution to that is and I don't care anymore.  The fact of the matter is, you can point to the core all you want, but these are NHL players and many of them are extremely talented.  They do not want to lose.  They do not want to not compete.  They want to win a stanley friggin' cup more than you or I want them to. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.  

 

Giroux isn't Richards, but everyone here hated Richards.  Giroux isn't Pronger, but everyone else that played with Pronger hated Pronger.

Giroux isn't Gretzky or Messier either.  Few are.

 

Right now the coach is the only problem there is to address.  You want to blow up the core 5 years into a rebuild that was supposed to take 5 years.  What's that going to get them?  A crack at a few more first rounders and 5 more years of pathetic non competitive hockey?

 

How about they end the mystery and stop with this futility and bring in an actual coach who can actually use the actual talent taking the ice for him every night and actually get them to do what they do best instead of having them fail at being completely different players than they are.

 

Now back to that third line is not the problem issue.  Why is the 1st and 2nd line the problem but not the bottom 6 for everyone?  Why is it Giroux and Jake always screwing up and coughing up the puck for goals the other way and not Misha or Weal or Lehtera or Weise?  How could this be?  It's actually kinda simple.   Giroux and Voraceck and their lines are the ones that HAVE to make the plays because the bottom six are not being asked to.  It's not their role.  When the team is down by a goal, neither the fans nor the coach nor the GM say, "Oh damn, why didn't Lehtera and Golbourne not somehow dig deep and make something happen for us?!"

 

Play makers try to make plays.  It doesn't always work.  They need systems in place to help make that playmaking easier and to help protect the goalie when it doesn't work.  That's how other successful teams with skilled players do it.  The Flyers aren't compensating.  They're not playing sound hockey.  It's the coach.  Sorry Hak.  The NHL game is just too skilled and too fast for the approach he has taken to trying to win at this level.  

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

On 10/30/2018 at 4:38 PM, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

This may hurt them even more but it could be a huge move towards Jack Hughes too......where they are clearly headed even with them.

 

Us getting Patrick is evidence that you can't count on the lottery.  It's an asinine strategy at this point.

 

I agree that it may hurt to trade a 30 goal scorer and a point per game player, but at this point, I'm ready to cut ties with Simmer if we can get a good return.  His locker room presence and his being the "heart and soul" of the team isn't helping jack right now.  

 

To boot he's not being utilized well at all which goes back to my point that it doesn't matter what the hell they do to the roster if they don't make some coaching changes and soon.  

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Us getting Patrick is evidence that you can't count on the lottery.  It's an asinine strategy at this point.

 

I agree that it may hurt to trade a 30 goal scorer and a point per game player, but at this point, I'm ready to cut ties with Simmer if we can get a good return.  His locker room presence and his being the "heart and soul" of the team isn't helping jack right now.  

 

To boot he's not being utilized well at all which goes back to my point that it doesn't matter what the hell they do to the roster if they don't make some coaching changes and soon.  

 

I haven't watched very many minutes yet this season, but it looks to me like Simmer has lost a step. 

[vis]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Do you really think it's a lack of desire and a problem with the core that's leaving talented players on the other team unchecked and unchallenged with the puck going in on our aging mediocre goalie?  Or is it because they're on the other side of the ice as prescribed by their coach for some unknown reason?  Is it a lack of compete that leaves players wide open in front of the Flyers net to screen the goalie or receive an easy pass for an easy goal?    Is it a lack of compete that has the best defenders on the team, regularly not just pinching, but literally DRIVING TO THE NET AHEAD OF THE LW, but with NO ONE COVERING THEIR POSITION BEHIND THEM?  Is it lack of compete that has them not challenging the puck or even attempting to shut down a passing lane on the PK for 3+ years?

 

No.  Your theory is that all the fault of the guys scoring more than a point per game, so therefore the guy who hasn't replaced them is the real culprit?  

 

A) the 3C has been the least of this team's problems, so I'm not concerned about his inaction there. I was when he didn't do anything about it, but to be honest, whether it was Misha, or Weal  (I have no idea why it hasn't been laughton yet) the third line hasn't been an issue.  Maybe they'd be scoring more if they had someone better at C, and maybe Simmer needs a real star to score at even strength, but honestly, they're not losing because of that.   The long and short is that like Tavares, no real star is going to sign with the Flyers to play third line minutes and the third and 4th lines are not the problem, but I'll get back to that later.

B) He was simply not able to improve from the NHL level until this past season because of the cap and he did just that with JVR.

C) The goaltending situation is complicated and it all goes back to Mason being a problem and Hextall NEEDING to sign Neuvirth in season before the vegas draft.  That is why the team has too many meh goalies right now.  If you want to say he should have cut lose Stolarz, then say that, but that was the only other option and at the time Stolarz had not yet gotten hurt and looked very good in backing up at the NHL level.

D) You are 100% spot on correct about addressing the PK.  BUT THAT is also attributable to Hakstol.  Unless we have some documented proof that Hakstol is begging Hextall to fire Lappy and give him someone who knows what he's doing on the PK... but even if that's the case, that only tells us that HAKSTOL DOESN'T KNOW **** about the PK and therefore shouldn't be an NHL coach to begin with.  

E) The core has been a problem since Laviolette... but that also suggests that the core has been a problem since Holmgren traded away the ACTUAL CORE of the team and replaced it with a handful of magic beans and declared them to be the new core and it's never gelled because they haven't been very good since.  This of course could all have a great deal to do with Pronger's career ending earlier than anticipated, but then again, blaming the failure of a team in 2018 on a 37 year old getting hurt and losing his NHL twilight years seven years ago.  

 

 

The fact is, the whole situation with the PK and the team being so miserable right now is indicative of a larger mystery that has been bugging me for a long ass time and I'm no closer to sorting it out.  Hextall and Hakstol's reactions to widely perceived and consistent problems has never made sense to me.  It just doesn't add up.  The PK is just the most glaring of these, but it's one example of many many things that are going wrong all the time and that the team is openly refusing to address.

 

I don't know what the solution to that is and I don't care anymore.  The fact of the matter is, you can point to the core all you want, but these are NHL players and many of them are extremely talented.  They do not want to lose.  They do not want to not compete.  They want to win a stanley friggin' cup more than you or I want them to. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.  

 

Giroux isn't Richards, but everyone here hated Richards.  Giroux isn't Pronger, but everyone else that played with Pronger hated Pronger.

Giroux isn't Gretzky or Messier either.  Few are.

 

Right now the coach is the only problem there is to address.  You want to blow up the core 5 years into a rebuild that was supposed to take 5 years.  What's that going to get them?  A crack at a few more first rounders and 5 more years of pathetic non competitive hockey?

 

How about they end the mystery and stop with this futility and bring in an actual coach who can actually use the actual talent taking the ice for him every night and actually get them to do what they do best instead of having them fail at being completely different players than they are.

 

Now back to that third line is not the problem issue.  Why is the 1st and 2nd line the problem but not the bottom 6 for everyone?  Why is it Giroux and Jake always screwing up and coughing up the puck for goals the other way and not Misha or Weal or Lehtera or Weise?  How could this be?  It's actually kinda simple.   Giroux and Voraceck and their lines are the ones that HAVE to make the plays because the bottom six are not being asked to.  It's not their role.  When the team is down by a goal, neither the fans nor the coach nor the GM say, "Oh damn, why didn't Lehtera and Golbourne not somehow dig deep and make something happen for us?!"

 

Play makers try to make plays.  It doesn't always work.  They need systems in place to help make that playmaking easier and to help protect the goalie when it doesn't work.  That's how other successful teams with skilled players do it.  The Flyers aren't compensating.  They're not playing sound hockey.  It's the coach.  Sorry Hak.  The NHL game is just too skilled and too fast for the approach he has taken to trying to win at this level.  

Kind of struggling to understand what you're saying or why you're directing this response to me.

 

First, at no point have I absolved Hakstol.  My point is that firing Hakstol is a quick fix.  However, issues run deeper than coaching.  Fault also lies with the "core" and the GM.  In addition to firing the coach, they need to think about whether the "core" is worth keeping around or whether it needs adjustment.  I'm not at a point where I think Hextall needs to be fired.  But his performance outside of farm/prospects is certainly not above question.  So, I'm having a real hard time understanding the tone of the first two paragraphs of your post and why it was directed to me.

 

Second, your post initially suggested to me that you think this is all on Hakstol; that the players are playing in a bad system and the roster isn't an issue and Hextall doesn't deserve blame because of the cap or because his hands were tied.  But then you say H & H's reactions to certain problems and inability to address the PK bother you, which indicate that you do at least partially fault Hextall.  You also say the core has been a problem since Laviollette.  So, I kind of thought you were saying that Hextall and the core share some fault.  Then, you go on to imply that Giroux and Jake aren't problems because the system sucks, so I guess you're back to the core not being the problem?  Just having a hard time following your thoughts.

 

Finally, I'll add this: I don't think systems cause Giroux or Voracek to lazily back check.  I don't think systems make Voracek stickhandle into the defense or blindly throw a pass to the opposition.  I don't think systems make this team mentally fragile at times (which is an issue going back multiple coaches/multiple systems).  I don't think systems are the only reason why this team does not play aggressively or why it seems emotionally uninvested at times or why it starts games slowly (again, issues going back multiple coaches/multiple systems).  I don't think systems make players cheat and get out of position.  Do I like Hakstol's system, whatever it might be?  Nope.  But I don't think "system" is the only problem.

[JR Ewing]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

I haven't watched very many minutes yet this season, but it looks to me like Simmer has lost a step. 

 

Age + Playing Style...

 

[brelic]

17 minutes ago, vis said:

I don't think systems make Voracek stickhandle into the defense

 

Voracek - "I got this."

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

I agree that it may hurt to trade a 30 goal scorer and a point per game player, but at this point, I'm ready to cut ties with Simmer if we can get a good return

 

 

Maybe they can flip him back to LA.

 

He and Doughty are best friends.

 

I would take Rasmus Kupari or Vilardi for him.

 

Since he is only under contract for the rest of this year.

 

That is a decent return for a rental.

[OccamsRazor]

59 minutes ago, vis said:

Finally, I'll add this: I don't think systems cause Giroux or Voracek to lazily back check.  I don't think systems make Voracek stickhandle into the defense or blindly throw a pass to the opposition.  I don't think systems make this team mentally fragile at times (which is an issue going back multiple coaches/multiple systems).  I don't think systems are the only reason why this team does not play aggressively or why it seems emotionally uninvested at times or why it starts games slowly (again, issues going back multiple coaches/multiple systems).  I don't think systems make players cheat and get out of position.  Do I like Hakstol's system, whatever it might be?  Nope.  But I don't think "system" is the only problem.

 

 

Spot on bro.

 

Execution.

 

It's like with kids you can teach them and teach them but at the end of the day it's on them to use and fall back on the fundamentals we instill in them.

 

And the same with this team...at what point do we hold them accountable to be smart professionals and go out and play to expectations for 60 minutes.

 

Play the way they are coach. And this too isn't saying Hak is free from any errors or places he needs to get better. 

 

But it isn't like Hak has changed the system this offseason bottom line they are not playing up to standards even.

 

I pulled this from an article: https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/flyers/look-just-how-much-flyers-dropped-october

 

After October in 2017-18, the Flyers were 6-5-1 with 13 points, 41 goals scored, 35 against, 10 power-play markers and nine against.

Their 41 goals were tied for sixth in the NHL and the 10 man-advantage tallies ranked in the top 10. The Flyers were at least scoring; there was no doubt about the offensive ability and they were respectable defensively.

 

Through their first 12 games this season, the Flyers are 5-7-0 with 10 points, 34 goals, 48 against, seven power-play markers, while the penalty kill has surrendered 14 tallies.

 

They're permitting the most goals in the NHL, the PK is tied for last in goals allowed, the PP is bottom 10 percentage-wise and the team's minus-13 goal differential is third worst in the league.

The overall drop-off is startling.

 

Last season in October, the Flyers' big boys were clicking. Among the NHL, Jakub Voracek was tied for fourth in scoring (16 points), Sean Couturier (15 points) was in a six-way tie for fifth and had a plus-10 rating, while Claude Giroux had 14 points — all three sitting in the top 15.

 

Also, Shayne Gostisbehere was knotted with Alex Pietrangelo for the league lead in scoring among NHL defensemen with 13 points to go with a plus-3 mark. His partner in crime Ivan Provorov had eight points and was even in the plus-minus department.

 

This season after October, Giroux has nearly kept pace at 13 points, Voracek has played in bursts and owns 12 points, while Couturier has taken a big step back with four points and a minus-4 rating. So, the Flyers have seen a 14-goal contrast when Couturier is on the ice, a significant hit from a player so relied upon and well-rounded.

 

The same goes for Gostisbehere in terms of his importance. He is currently tied for 44th among NHL blueliners in scoring at five points and sports a minus-9 mark. Provorov has just four points and a minus-7 status.

 

 Perhaps the most concerning trend is Brian Elliott. Not because of a drastic decline in play, but instead because of almost identical production. That goes to show just how shaky the effort has been in front of the net, through all three zones, and that Elliott might not have a ton of room to be better.

 

Over last season's opening month, Elliott was 5-2-1 with a 3.23 goals-against average and .884 save percentage. This season, he's 3-5-0 with a 3.23 goals-against average and .889 save percentage.

 

It also doesn't help that Michal Neuvirth has played just once and allowed six goals compared to last season's start in which he went 1-3-0 with a 2.30 GAA and .925 save percentage.

 

Same team almost they just are playing like shat to start. Is anyone shocked?? No kind of seen it coming.

[vis]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

Voracek - "I got this."

Brilliant.

 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, vis said:

Kind of struggling to understand what you're saying or why you're directing this response to me.

 

First, at no point have I absolved Hakstol.  My point is that firing Hakstol is a quick fix.  However, issues run deeper than coaching.  Fault also lies with the "core" and the GM.  In addition to firing the coach, they need to think about whether the "core" is worth keeping around or whether it needs adjustment.  I'm not at a point where I think Hextall needs to be fired.  But his performance outside of farm/prospects is certainly not above question.  So, I'm having a real hard time understanding the tone of the first two paragraphs of your post and why it was directed to me.

 

Second, your post initially suggested to me that you think this is all on Hakstol; that the players are playing in a bad system and the roster isn't an issue and Hextall doesn't deserve blame because of the cap or because his hands were tied.  But then you say H & H's reactions to certain problems and inability to address the PK bother you, which indicate that you do at least partially fault Hextall.  You also say the core has been a problem since Laviollette.  So, I kind of thought you were saying that Hextall and the core share some fault.  Then, you go on to imply that Giroux and Jake aren't problems because the system sucks, so I guess you're back to the core not being the problem?  Just having a hard time following your thoughts.

 

Finally, I'll add this: I don't think systems cause Giroux or Voracek to lazily back check.  I don't think systems make Voracek stickhandle into the defense or blindly throw a pass to the opposition.  I don't think systems make this team mentally fragile at times (which is an issue going back multiple coaches/multiple systems).  I don't think systems are the only reason why this team does not play aggressively or why it seems emotionally uninvested at times or why it starts games slowly (again, issues going back multiple coaches/multiple systems).  I don't think systems make players cheat and get out of position.  Do I like Hakstol's system, whatever it might be?  Nope.  But I don't think "system" is the only problem.

 

Because cause your post made me think of these things. 

 

Sorry if the the time was abrasive or something but I just think it’s disingenuous to blame A GM for not getting better NHL players from trades or Free Agency when he didn’t have any cap room. Grabner over Weiss would have been nice.  But he surprised everyone and Hextall went in on JVR this year. 

 

I never absolved hextall of fault, I’m simply pointing out the things I think can realistically be pinned on him and the ones that can’t. 

 

Not firing Hakstol when he clearly can’t coach at this level is the biggest one.  

 

You said the core was a problem going back to Laviolette, I was merely pointing out that Laviolette is the coach who had his core traded away out from under him and if it’s been a problem since the. It may simply be that the team has had no core since Carter and Richards were traded and Pronger got eye concussioned. 

 

Maybe Jake and G are problems. I’m not coming down on a particular opinion there to be honest.  My gut says guys that score a point per game  tend to be good to have unless they’re named Kovalchuck. 

 

Regardless of the above there is CERTAINLY a coaching and systems problem.  Both can be true.  

 

Systems can certainly make it to LOOK to your eyes like Jake and G are lazy on the back check, but difficult for you to notice that they and Couturier tend to skate about 3 times as much ice surface back and forth as Anyone else on the ice per shift and that they now are playing almost as many minutes a night IN OCTOBER as a #1 d man in the playoffs.  

 

Systems absolutely (and almost exclusively) make it so Voracek has no good options on the transition so he has little choice other than to stick handle into a zone and try forcing a risky pass.  That’s literally the textbook definition of a system failing a talented player in most cases.  

 

Systems are absolutely a reason a team might not play aggressively.  That’s kinda what I’m saying.  You see lazy and I see Hakstol benching Ghost and TK for trying to be too aggressive and use their skill instead of slowing the game down and hanging back.  You see a team not attacking the zone and I see a team waiting to set itself up for a pass from the goal line back to the point for a shot from Gudas instead of generating space on the rush to set up Giroux or TK or Jake or Simmer or Coots in the slot. 

 

The lack of aggression in their own zone and on the PK has to be coaching.  It’s too Consistent.   they are constantly waiting for the other team to make a play.  If it WERE the players sitting back, wouldn’t a GOOD coach replace those players or at least TRY another set on the PK?  In the D-zone it’s the same thing. You think Hakstol has been telling them to attack attack attack for three years and His favorite players that get all the minutes in those situations keep doing the opposite but he puts Lehtera and Mac our there at the end of the game anyway?  

 

A system is is literally about telling players where they are supposed to be or supposed to be going at a given moment to make the flow of play unfold or be stifled the way you want it.  If players are consistently out of position, odds are it’s because they’re being coached to be out of position. That’s kinda what a system is, where you go when to execute what kind of play and how that translates from one end of the ice to the other.  

 

I’ve always said Hak’s Seem okay at generating zone entries, but they’re kinda crap on generating high % chances, really not good at positioning for the transition to defensive coverage and downright awful at getting a controlled exit out of their own zone. 

 

I think its its mostly a systems problem and I think the player issues you’re seeing are a result of that and at this point of Hak just plain losing the room and no one trusting him or his plan. 

 

When it doesn’t work this consistently, can you really blame Jake or G or anyone for not pouring 100% effort into things when they know from experience that it’s going to result poorly?  

 

2 years ago Hak saw what was happening to his team and made  adjustments. They stopped scoring almost altogether but they started winning more games (including 10 in a row).  I chalked that up to him not having the skilled personnel on D to cover the zone. 

 

He really should now. Maybe he makes adjustments again, but I haven’t seen many changes and this team is actually talented and it’s time we started seeing that. 

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

Systems absolutely (and almost exclusively) make it so Voracek has no good options on the transition so he has little choice other than to stick handle into a zone and try forcing a risky pass.  That’s literally the textbook definition of a system failing a talented player in most cases

 

I refuse to give him the benefit of that doubt.

 

He is literally the textbook definition of "stupid player."    Voracek has no good options because he skates himself into situations where he has no good options. He has the option at the blue line to pass back.  He doesn't.  He could dump it, but instead he takes a dump.    He chooses to skate headlong into several defenders because his crap stickhandling is--in his mind--so great.   I used to love Tim Kerr, but I wanted some sort of company rule that he couldn't touch the puck unless he was standing in the slot.     I cringe in the same way with Voracek when he gets the puck and gets this look like he could attack and defeat the 82nd Airborne all by himself.

 

Even if the system were sound -- it's not -- his mannerism would undermine and destroy it.  It's great he's getting points, but he might be one of the dumbest players to ever wear the orange and black.  At least he hasn't eaten his boogers on camera, to my knowledge.

 

I think both of our core players are talented but constitutionally weak.   And add to it that Voracek is stupid.

 

The coaching is flawed, no doubt.  But this "core" is not sufficient.  Until we move on from it, this team is ultimately going nowhere.  And the longer they stay, the more they infect the kids coming up.

 

Several other things:

The 3C is a big deal.   The drop off in ice time from 1st to 3rd line is astounding, and largely due to the fact that Hak doesn't trust his 3rd line.  And that's not because of Simmonds.  It's the 3C.   And the 3C has been non-existent on the PK.   The priority should have been a 3C who excels at the PK.  That wasn't done.   In fact, the 3C should have been the #1 priority in the offseason.   Not a scoring winger.    A 3C, then a goalie.  Then a 2nd pair veteran defenseman, then a scoring winger.

 

The salary cap excuse doesn't play for this season.  We are sitting on in excess of $10M.   

 

Hextall is afraid to pull the trigger on a big boy trade.  There have been trades to get out of the cap hell that I've liked.  There have been trades to get out of cap hell that I didn't like but tolerated because it helped get us out of cap hell.   There have been trades for quality picks.

 

What there has not been is any trade for a quality player coming back.  We have $10M in cap space.   I understand all about wanting to keep it for the kids we are going to have to resign.   I also understand that it's hard to get quality when all you have to pay with is crap.  But there doesn't seem to be any risk taking or creativity in terms of NHL players from Hextall.  It's fear-guided patience.  It's his knowledge and correct assessment of years of our front office trading for and/or signing the fading vet that he's way the other way in Inactionville.      This core group has been coddled for several years.  When was the last time we made a trade to wake up the troops and not just a deadline deal to clear cap or get picks?

 

There is zero accountability coming from the office of the General Manager, whether it be accountability for the coach, the coaching staff, the players, the trainers--no one.

 

Yes, it's a system problem.  But it was a system problem under Berube.  It was a system problem under Stevens.  It was god only knows what under Laviolette.  I agree it's a system problem.  It's moreso an accountability problem.  That comes through the coach, but it doesn't originate there.  It originates upstairs.

[pilldoc]

19 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

There is zero accountability coming from the office of the General Manager, whether it be accountability for the coach, the coaching staff, the players, the trainers--no one.

 

Nail meet head.  ^^ This x100% ^^.  This is the crux of the problem, IMHO, which I mentioned in another post.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

What there has not been is any trade for a quality player coming back.  We have $10M in cap space.   I understand all about wanting to keep it for the kids we are going to have to resign.

 

Even that doesn't matter. It's not like in the NFL where you can roll it over.

 

No you have to use it this year.

 

Use it or lose it.

 

I hate to say or think this, but do you think he is saving to show his bosses that "Hey look we did all this and I still have 10 mill in cap space if i wanted to use it...blah blah blah" to stick a feather in his GM hat?

 

I hope not. This money needs to be used to make this team better THIS year!

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Even that doesn't matter. It's not like in the NFL where you can roll it over.

 

No you have to use it this year.

 

Use it or lose

People saying that as if it's relevant to the point. No one is talking about anything rolling over. Of course it doesn't roll over. But it still matters. 

 

The point is few in the age bracket and quality level you'd want to sign will do so for the one year window you actually have the cap room. So their contact extends until the period/years that you need that money for something else. 

 

In other words, i blow the $10 that I have Xtra this year, and that's fine. But I'm paying that player again next year AND Provorov AND Patrick, Konecny, etc and we don't have enough to cover all of it and someone has to go. 

 

That's the argument, anyway. 

 

Nothing to do with rollover or not rolling over. 

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

People saying that as if it's relevant to the point. No one is talking about anything rolling over. Of course it doesn't roll over. But it still matters. 

 

The point is few in the age bracket and quality level you'd want to sign will do so for the one year window you actually have the cap room. So their contact extends until the period/years that you need that money for something else. 

 

In other words, i blow the $10 that I have Xtra this year, and that's fine. But I'm paying that player again next year AND Provorov AND Patrick, Konecny, etc and we don't have enough to cover all of it and someone has to go. 

 

That's the argument, anyway. 

 

Nothing to do with rollover or not rolling over. 

 

So take on a bloated contract for one year.

 

You have the space roll the goddamn dice.

 

You don't have to use every penny but they should be creative and use most of it.

[ruxpin]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So take on a bloated contract for one year.

 

You have the space roll the goddamn dice.

 

You don't have to use every penny but they should be creative and use most of it.

Like I said, the type of players you'd actually want won't do only one year. 

 

That's the argument. 

 

But other teams manage it, right?  So, it doesn't have to be the 29 year old rock star who's going to insist on 5+.  It can (can) be done with the 33 or 34 year old who still wants to play and still has some ability. 

 

The one year window does make it difficult, but not impossible. 

 

Are you at work? I'm posting because I'm off on my daily odyssey. My life blows. 

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Like I said, the type of players you'd actually want won't do only one year. 

 

 

I'm talking about acquiring them with one year left on their deal. Two years wouldn't be killer.

 

But there has to be some talent out there with a year left they could look into adding to help what they already have here.

 

Maybe they will later....in a month or so who knows.