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elmatus

Flyers and Quenneville?

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11 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

 

This is confusing to me. 100+ points put the Flyers in the top 4 or 5 in the conference. How is that not a contender? 

 

I get that we have goalie issues, 'youth' issues related to inexperience and development, and questionable coaching. But if the team can still manage to rack up 100+ points, they are a contender in my mind. The same way every other 100+ point team is a contender, yet the same way ALL of them will fail to make it to the Cup final except one.

 

We are not alone in having 'issues.' 

 

 

100 points is your plateau for a contender, huhr?   Odd, we were at 98 points last year and looked nothing like a contender at any point of the season IMO.

 

Last year Washington, Pitt, TB, Boston, Tronno, Nash, Peg, Minny, Vegas, Anaheim and San Jose all eclipsed 100 points.  Tell me how we would have won a series against any of those teams in the east or west?  I dont think we would have beat Columbus or Jersey in a series and they had 97 points... LA has 98 points...

 

but yeah, if you think being 100+ points is the mark of a great team have at it.  I said that this year needs to be a 100+ point season plus a playoff win to say we are progressing - same thing Hexy said at the start of the season.   

 

And no... just b/c you are a 100 point team does not mean you are a contender.

 

 

Edited by murraycraven
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33 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

Can he build a team that is very competitive given the opportunity?  Absolutely and that is the reason I would ditch Hak but to think Q coming in here and we immediately become a contender is fools gold.   Until the prospects pan out and the goalie situation is solved, or at least adequate, this team will remain in neutral. 

I don't think I communicated my point very clearly, because your post's meaning doesn't seem to differ greatly from what I wrote.

Q didn't win right away in Chicago, he and Bowman built that winner.

There are pieces in place here similar to what was there when he began.  The goaltending in Chicago that beat the Flyer was Anti ****** Niemei, plus there are prospects aside from Carter Hart that may pan out more quickly, Sandrstrom, Ustimenko are currently playing well in their respective leagues, if Bill Meltzer is to be believed. So for me the goaltending dog doesn't hunt.

 

Not every prospect will pan out that's true,  but there's a lot of them and even if they hit on 40% they are still icing a talented squad, coached by a guy with a winning track record and has proven player development chops. 

 

Lastly  I said very competitive for 5 to 8 years, I think the vets perk up under Quennville  and the team improves from the year prior...as things are going now, I don't see that happening.  It's not fool's gold to think adding Quennville makes this team better, more rapidly.

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1 hour ago, elmatus said:

To go back to your post: They *should* be a a team on the cusp of contending. The fact they're not is something that is difficult to reconcile at this point.

 

 

I am a fan and passionate fan at that... this team should be on the upswing and yet I feel like we are in neutral.  Having lost JvR so early is just bad luck and something that has hurt the team.  But, so has our defense, coaching and our goal tending.  I 'd love to believe they are a playoff team this year but I am in the wait and see mode just as last year.  I would love to be confident in saying they will make the playoffs but right now I can't say that...  I just cant

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5 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

100 points is your plateau for a contender, huhr?   Odd, we were at 98 points last year and looked nothing like a contender at any point of the season IMO.

 

Last year Washington, Pitt, TB, Boston, Tronno, Nash, Peg, Minny, Vegas, Anaheim and San Jose all eclipsed 100 points.  Tell me how we would have won a series against any of those teams in the east or west?  I dont think we would have beat Columbus or Jersey in a series and they had 97 points... LA has 98 points...

 

but yeah, if you think being 100+ points is the mark of a great team have at it.  I said that this year needs to be a 100+ point season plus a playoff win to say we are progressing - same thing Hexy said at the start of the season.   

 

And no... just b/c you are a 100 point team does not mean you are a contender.

 

 

 

It's not that 100+ points in my plateau for a contender. I am going to make an assumption that neither you nor Hextall meant exactly 100 points, which is basically one extra victory (or two fewer OTL) than last year. That would be flat (i.e. no progress), just like getting 96 points would be flat (no regression). 

 

So I agree with you that 100+ point season plus a playoff win would be a clear indication of progress. 

 

Where I disagree with you is that it wouldn't make them a contender. I think they would be. Not a favourite, but not a token qualifier either. A contender. 

 

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1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think I communicated my point very clearly, because your post's meaning doesn't seem to differ greatly from what I wrote.

Q didn't win right away in Chicago, he and Bowman built that winner.

There are pieces in place here similar to what was there when he began.  The goaltending in Chicago that beat the Flyer was Anti ****** Niemei, plus there are prospects aside from Carter Hart that may pan out more quickly, Sandrstrom, Ustimenko are currently playing well in their respective leagues, if Bill Meltzer is to be believed. So for me the goaltending dog doesn't hunt.

 

Not every prospect will pan out that's true,  but there's a lot of them and even if they hit on 40% they are still icing a talented squad, coached by a guy with a winning track record and has proven player development chops. 

 

Lastly  I said very competitive for 5 to 8 years, I think the vets perk up under Quennville  and the team improves from the year prior...as things are going now, I don't see that happening.  It's not fool's gold to think adding Quennville makes this team better, more rapidly.

 

 

Agree mojo... sorry, I may have misinterpreted what I read.  

 

I think if you bring in a top tier coach it sends a message to the vets - and the result would be better play.   I would love for once a Coach to put the onus on Jake to stop the turnovers.   I would also like to see a coach actually manage in-game effectively and have a system that does not rely on dumping the puck and getting it back to the points nearly 80% of the time.  

 

You may feel differently about the goal tending.   While Niemi was a solid goalie they also had a stud defense corps.  Goalies are a fickle thing but those Hawks teams were stacked from the the defense out.   I pray that Hart or Sandstrom turn out to be great goalies but that is a TBD.

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14 minutes ago, brelic said:

Not a favourite, but not a token qualifier either. A contender. 

 

we differ in terms of a "contender" then and that is fine.  going into the playoffs i think it is easy to see who the real contenders are for the most part.  there are always teams that go on a run at the right time so your argument holds merit.  but, even if the flyers, as the roster stands today (w JvR), I just don't see them being much of a contender in terms of actually having a legit chance to win the cup.

 

that can all change of course if Ron went out and got Nylander and an actual above average goalie.   this is what makes the season so fun but at some point Hexy has to go "chips in" and markedly improve the team to be an actual contender (my definition :) )

 

We were sold a 5 yr plan and patience...  so does the 5 yr plan turn into 7 or 8?   The fan base for the most part has been very patient.   That is going to dwindle as the plan keeps pushing out...

Edited by murraycraven
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I would be interested in him after the season. Another poor showing and i think it is time.

 

However i would expect the Blues to be in hot pursuit of him too.

 

I would be kicking the tires on Kevin Dineen to if Joel wasn't ready.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I would be interested in him after the season. Another poor showing and i think it is time.

 

However i would expect the Blues to be in hot pursuit of him too.

 

I would be kicking the tires on Kevin Dineen to if Joel wasn't ready.

 

 

Just the fact that Dineen is an ex-Flyer would make him someone the team would look into, should they can Hakstol. He would be a good choice, actually. 

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3 hours ago, vis said:

So, what got Q fired?  Poor results?  One too many squabbles with Bowman?

Probably squabbles with Bowman. Many are of the opinion that GM Bowman's cap handling and personnel decisions have contributed more to the lack of success Chicago has had recently than Quennevilles coaching and that Bowman should have been the one to go, not Quenneville.

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23 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Just the fact that Dineen is an ex-Flyer would make him someone the team would look into, should they can Hakstol. He would be a good choice, actually. 

 

 

He has experience as a head coach too with the Panthers as well.

 

I kind of want a guy who is familiar with the way the NHL players work....it's whole lot different than trying to motivate college kids as Hak and Chip have learned...

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Toews Kane Keith Seabrook Hossa in their 20's Quennville great coach. Same 5 guys 10 years later, not so great. Game gets faster and faster, younger and younger, salary cap gets tougher to manage. I give the Hawks credit for the contracts these 5 guys were given They earned them winning 3 Cups. Unfortunately it handcuffs them retooling their roster. 

I would be surprised if Coach Q would come to a situation like the Flyers are in.

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7 hours ago, Jam1986 said:

Why him?

The better question is:  why NOT him? 

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58 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

The better question is:  why NOT him? 

 

I would be down with doing it now if that is what Hextall thinks is best.

 

Sometimes you have to strike while the iron is hot.

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5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I would be down with doing it now if that is what Hextall thinks is best.

 

Sometimes you have to strike while the iron is hot.

Yeah. 

 

Like a lot of things regarding the Flyers that makw sense:  I'd be stunned if it happened. 

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7 hours ago, murraycraven said:

 

we differ in terms of a "contender" then and that is fine.  going into the playoffs i think it is easy to see who the real contenders are for the most part.  there are always teams that go on a run at the right time so your argument holds merit.  but, even if the flyers, as the roster stands today (w JvR), I just don't see them being much of a contender in terms of actually having a legit chance to win the cup.

 

I agree if they make the playoff playing the way they are. The poor special teams alone is a severe handicap, let alone goaltending and young defense issues!

 

But I’d like to believe that a 105 pt team did enough right during the season to find a real chemistry and cohesion. But, maybe not too. Points are just one way of feeling if a team is really a contender, so I agree with you that there’s no magic number. 

 

7 hours ago, murraycraven said:

that can all change of course if Ron went out and got Nylander and an actual above average goalie.   this is what makes the season so fun but at some point Hexy has to go "chips in" and markedly improve the team to be an actual contender (my definition :) )

 

Exactly. A lot can happen over 82 games!

 

7 hours ago, murraycraven said:

We were sold a 5 yr plan and patience...  so does the 5 yr plan turn into 7 or 8?   The fan base for the most part has been very patient.   That is going to dwindle as the plan keeps pushing out...

 

We’re always 2 years away from being 2 years away :)

 

Honestly, though, I feel like getting JVR was a signal that Hexy wants to win in the NHL. That said, it’s a question of whether or not he made the right upgrade(s) in the right places. 

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27 minutes ago, brelic said:

Honestly, though, I feel like getting JVR was a signal that Hexy wants to win in the NHL. That said, it’s a question of whether or not he made the right upgrade(s) in the right places. 

 

Except for in net.

 

Since he missed his chance to claim him on waivers for free and maybe would have solved some of the issues claiming Halak on waivers.

 

He had a chance again to right the situation again this summer. Buy out Neuvy bid him farewell and go out and sign Halak to a two year deal to push Elliott.

 

But he didn't.

 

Good ol status quo!

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9 hours ago, brelic said:

Honestly, though, I feel like getting JVR was a signal that Hexy wants to win in the NHL. That said, it’s a question of whether or not he made the right upgrade(s) in the right places. 

JVR is fine and all, but I think most of us can agree adding him doesn't fill any pressing need for the team. Sure, it gives us a bit more scoring, but that wasn't exactly our weakness last season. 

 

I get what you're saying in that it was a move for a veteran with a scoring record. That typically is a sign a team is looking to take a solid step forward. To be honest though, the fact Hexy chose that as his big move only makes me question him more so. I've liked his tenure in a lot of ways, not the least of which being that he's a lot more stable on the trigger with regards to big moves that never seem to pan out.

 

That said, it really doesn't take a hockey genius to figure out where the team struggled most last season. It really had nothing to do with a second line LW. We had some of the worst goaltending in the league. Our PK was abysmal. And our head coach really looked horribly out coached multiple times, most especially during the playoffs. To me, those three things should be very apparent to anyone who was paying attention last season, yet Hexy did nothing to address them.

 

I can get why he didn't get a 3C, despite us needing that too. We have a lot of players on the farm who could very well have risen up to take that spot. Vorobyev did in fact show quite a bit of promise in this regard. I can get that. 

 

I can also understand signing JVR. Lindblom remains a work in progress. Getting a more proven LW to slot in behind Giroux makes sense to me. The fact he could be acquired with no need to lose assets makes him especially interesting. While we can argue the salary and term, that seems to me the cost of getting a guy with his resume at this point in his career. So it was either that, or he'd have just gone elsewhere.

 

Was there just no decent goalie upgrade available in the off season? That's possible. Looking at last year's stats, mostly any goalie would be an upgrade mind you, but I don't think it makes so much sense to replace the 36th overall goalie with the 32nd overall goalie or some such nonsense. 

 

Not changing any of the coaching staff is far more worrying to me. It tells me Hexy feels there's little to be gained by doing so. It strikes me as Hextall's overall conservative approach frankly going too far. I get that he feels stability is important, but at some point you have to shake the tree, which is something he seems to find very difficult.

 

I've noted this before, but the Habs are an interesting comparison at least so far this season. Not content with how things worked for them in 2017-18 -- and with a GM on the hot seat -- they essentially gutted their coaching staff, keeping Julien to carry over and work with a new team. On paper, their roster has no where near the talent the Flyers have, yet they're off to a fantastic start, while we're left looking at a playoff miss so far.

 

We can sit here and blame the players for not executing on a plan set out by their coaches. I've done that in recent years, as have many others here. But at some point that logic needs to be turned on its head. If the gameplan sucks, it's going to be an uphill battle for any player.

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32 minutes ago, elmatus said:

JVR is fine and all, but I think most of us can agree adding him doesn't fill any pressing need for the team. Sure, it gives us a bit more scoring, but that wasn't exactly our weakness last season. 

 

No, that's true. But maybe it was Hextall's way of addressing the void that will be left by not re-upping Simmonds. He got a guy for $7M but on a 5 year deal. I'm sure that Hextall had preliminary conversations with Simmer's agent to test the waters, gauge what he'd be looking for. If he didn't think the term made sense for the team, why not go out and get a replacement who does? 

 

35 minutes ago, elmatus said:

To be honest though, the fact Hexy chose that as his big move only makes me question him more so. I've liked his tenure in a lot of ways, not the least of which being that he's a lot more stable on the trigger with regards to big moves that never seem to pan out.

 

You need a willing partner (either for trades or UFA signings), and then that partner needs to also offer something that aligns with what you're willing to give up or commit to. I'm not absolving Hextall, because he has blind spots and weaknesses just like everyone else.

 

But the UFAs that were signed ended up with what looks like the typical overpayment / overcommitment that happens every season. 

 

45 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Not changing any of the coaching staff is far more worrying to me. It tells me Hexy feels there's little to be gained by doing so. It strikes me as Hextall's overall conservative approach frankly going too far. I get that he feels stability is important, but at some point you have to shake the tree, which is something he seems to find very difficult.

 

I mostly agree with you here. At the very least, Lappy should have been let go.

 

On the other hand, find me a GM that fired his coach after making the playoffs and losing in the 1st round. Of course it happens, especially when you are expected to do so much more. But the Flyers are not in that situation.

 

I'm all for replacing Hak too - but I can understand why Hexy didn't do it. 

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@elmatus

that's a really good post, I like the point about the lack of a goalie upgrade. 

good thoughts.

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7 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I like the point about the lack of a goalie upgrade. 

 

giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095be33f0649304d3851

 

Image result for halak's boston gif

 

Hard to watch a rival horde not one but two goalies and the Flyers can't find one.....

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There is all kinds of speculation about his future. One account I've read puts it anywhere from the Flyers to sitting at home for a year collecting his 6 million, then waiting for an offer from Seattle. The same account said he might be called upon by his former colleague Dale Tallon to bail out the floundering Panthers.  I don't think he will be unemployed for long.  You can't question his pedigree.  My belief is simple--if we don't win a playoff series, the season will be a disappointment and probably warrant DH's dismissal. If JQ is still available, he's probably a candidate.  The O and B would be one of the few franchises that could afford his salary.  

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6 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

  I don't think he will be unemployed for long. 

 

 

I agree and he will have the pick he wants.......plenty of suitors.

 

This could be his last gig so he may want the time to weigh that decision.

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9 hours ago, brelic said:

I mostly agree with you here. At the very least, Lappy should have been let go.

 

On the other hand, find me a GM that fired his coach after making the playoffs and losing in the 1st round. Of course it happens, especially when you are expected to do so much more. But the Flyers are not in that situation.

 

I'm all for replacing Hak too - but I can understand why Hexy didn't do it. 

 

I honestly can't. 😕

 

16 teams make the post-season. The only reason we made it at all is because we had Giroux pumping pts at a clip rivalled only by the most skilled player in the world. Drop him to even a meagre 90 pts, and we miss the playoffs entirely. We can't expect that kind of production from him every year. Without it, there's no way we're making the playoffs last season.

 

Being a head coach isn't just about the record. To me, a good GM would look at the moving parts and make decisions based on more than a regular season record. I say regular season because Hakstol looked completely lost in a seven game series, which again should have been an indication for Hexy imo.

 

I would have canned the lot. That said, I could have understood to a large extent if Hakstol remained but his surrounding cast was replaced. Many of these issues -- the PK for instance -- were not a new development. It's a trend. And the PK isn't the only worrisome trend of note.

 

Put in another context, if one of my student group doesn't meet learning or development expectations, there's a chance it was a difficult group. If that becomes a consistent trend across several academic years, the lens would shift over to me pretty quickly. I would expect no less. It's not because this is the NHL that those expectations fail to apply.

Edited by elmatus

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I'd love to see Quenneville be the head coach in Philadelphia. Look at the players that were developed under his watch:

 

Kane

Toews

Keith

Seabrook

Saad

Panarin

Hjalmarsson

Ladd

Byfuglien

Bolland

Brouwer

Versteeg

DeBrincat

Schmaltz

Crawford

 

That's an incredibly impressive list. Three Stanley Cup wins as well. The guy knows how to coach and get the best out of his players. The only thing I'd like to see if he were to come to Philadelphia is that he bring back Mike Kitchen with him and that Knoblauch and Dillabaugh keep their jobs. Penalty Kill gets fixed immediately, the defense actually gets some structure and the youth gets served (there's ZERO reason why Sanheim is getting shite for ice time) and there's an actual system that's in place, no some pathetic, second rate, Hakshell-SackHack, garbage, bottom feeding system that is barely passable as even to be classified as a system. Yes, I hate the Hakstol garbage brand of hockey very much.

 

Realistically though, I know that Quenneville isn't coming to Philadelphia. Hextall simply doesn't have the stones to crap can Hakstol.

 

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1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Knoblauch and Dillabaugh keep their jobs

 

Why should Knoblauch keep his job.

 

All that talent to work with and he has done nothing to improve the powerplay since he replaced Mullen. Nothing.

 

And Dillabaugh?

 

What has he done to improve the goaltending situation since taking over?

 

I have seen zero improvements from either?

 

But I will wait for your answer.

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