Moves Starting?

[brelic]

Just checked out a mock draft. Thought it would cheer us up

 

 

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I hate to throw out cliches, but I guess only time will tell.  All of those players could pan out and we could have a good team.  I cant say they wont, but I can't say they will either.  Since none of those players have lived up to my expectations yet, I'm leaning toward not being really excited about their situation. 

We know all of the prospects won't pan out. that's why its better to have a lot of them. I'd say we're operating at about 75 % capacity as far as having a strong developmental system.

Especially if we compare what the Flyers have going on to what Toronto has going on, we're not quite there yet.

The Marlies (TORs AHL team) have been a very strong team going on 4 years now, prior to that they were good, but not mauling good teams in the playoffs good. They smoked the Phantoms on their way to the Calder.

Mid-level talent isn't on that Marlies roster, those are all good players, they compete with each other and make each other better. The best of those guys get to the NHL where to no one's surprise they are good NHL players too, the rising talent tide lifts all the ships. Add good players to near generational talents like Matthews and Marner and you see how the Leafs can be very good. 

I don't think the Flyers have enough guys in system to where the tide is cresting like Toronto but it is on the rise. Toronto has had a several year head start because they were terrible for a long time and were finally allowed to bottom out and rebuild.

All the scouting magazines like the Flyers prospects, those guys aren't on the comcast payroll, building a team from the ground up takes time. Hextall apparently didn't have as much as he thought and was too intransigent to modify his plan to suit the corporate masters.

 

 

[brelic]

12 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think the Flyers have enough guys in system to where the tide is cresting like Toronto but it is on the rise. Toronto has had a several year head start because they were terrible for a long time and were finally allowed to bottom out and rebuild.

All the scouting magazines like the Flyers prospects, those guys aren't on the comcast payroll, building a team from the ground up takes time. Hextall apparently didn't have as much as he thought and was too intransigent modify his plan to suit the corporate masters.

 

I think that's the key. We don't have any near-generational talents on the team or in the pipeline.

 

The only truly elite talent we have is 30 years old.

 

It's gonna be tough proposition to win a Cup without an Ovechkin, Crosby, Kane, Malkin.

 

There's really only one way to get one of those guys.

 

Well, two, if you're Toronto.

[mojo1917]

@brelic
plus, you know, Babcock

[Howie58]

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I actually wish we were north-south.  I don't agree that we're that at all unless we're talking about two entirely different things.

 

I'm also good with the draft picks.   When you think about the fact that Hextall's first draft was 2014 (a month after starting), it means only 4 full seasons have been played since his first draft.

2014-15

2015-16

2016-17

2017-18

 

I mean, the oldest players drafted are 22 years old.   3 from that first draft have played NHL games.  Granted, one of them is NAK, who is only kind of knocking on the door, but as a late 2nd round pick, that's not bad.

 

From the 2015 draft, 4 have played in the NHL.  One of them is Cooper Marody.  I'll be honest; I have no idea who that is.   But two of the others are regular players in Provorov & Konecny.  Vorobyov is the other.   He didn't get a fair shake after being really good in camp.  He'll be back.   3 in a draft year is really pretty good.  Another pick was a goalie (Sandstrom), who is still likely on his way or will become a very valuable trade-able asset.  

 

No one has made it yet from the 2016 draft, but consider that they're still 20 years old.  Rubstov was close  if not for injury.  Hart is among these.  Others (Allison, Laczynski) were long plays and are still in college.

 

2017:   Patrick.  This was a no-brain pick that in retrospect might have been the result of no brain.  We'll see how it turns out, but maybe we should have traded back for Petersson.  If that was so obvious, though, there were 4 other teams that missed it, too.    

He's the only one so far from this class, but again they're 19 with one year played.   

 

I don't have the time to look, but I doubt many, if any, of Detroit's famed 4th-7th round gems made it to the NHL while still juniors-eligible.

 

I'm not questioning our picks.  At the very least, many are trade-able assets, which is part of point (I'm not sure Hextall understood this. He didn't seem to).   But I'm okay with most of the picks.

 

It's the management at the NHL level and the pro-scouting that bothers me.

Rux:

 

This is a great post. Here are my thoughts:

 

1)  Maybe "uncreative" is more appropriate than "north-south."  But as I've said here before (maybe too often), is that we have a team that is among the best on face-offs, has a good Corsi score, and frequently outshoots its opponents....but gets outscored.  This has been a two year phenomenon.  I am sure part of this is defense/goaltending.  But I have to think part of it is a lack of scoring creativity. We take a lot of shots from the distance.  We don't have the kind of swarm that LGK can do.  And we don't have snipers.  We seem to rely on deflections and garbage.  That may be coaching. Or it may be the type of people we draft (or, fail to trade for).

 

2)  On the draft side, I have a deep-seated fear/concern that the brass and maybe Pryor (maybe not) see the world through an old prism along these lines.  "We need to worry about playoff hockey against big teams like Ottawa or New York and survive seven game series."  That meant there was little doubt about making the playoffs.  It was a question of how far we went. Fifteen-Twenty years ago, that made sense.  That mindset won't do us big favors today.  I can understand why Scott or others and I worry about this DNA.  That's why I really, really hope we have a new set of eyes from outside the organization.  

[ruxpin]

41 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Rux:

 

This is a great post. Here are my thoughts:

 

1)  Maybe "uncreative" is more appropriate than "north-south."  But as I've said here before (maybe too often), is that we have a team that is among the best on face-offs, has a good Corsi score, and frequently outshoots its opponents....but gets outscored.  This has been a two year phenomenon.  I am sure part of this is defense/goaltending.  But I have to think part of it is a lack of scoring creativity. We take a lot of shots from the distance.  We don't have the kind of swarm that LGK can do.  And we don't have snipers.  We seem to rely on deflections and garbage.  That may be coaching. Or it may be the type of people we draft (or, fail to trade for).

 

2)  On the draft side, I have a deep-seated fear/concern that the brass and maybe Pryor (maybe not) see the world through an old prism along these lines.  "We need to worry about playoff hockey against big teams like Ottawa or New York and survive seven game series."  That meant there was little doubt about making the playoffs.  It was a question of how far we went. Fifteen-Twenty years ago, that made sense.  That mindset won't do us big favors today.  I can understand why Scott or others and I worry about this DNA.  That's why I really, really hope we have a new set of eyes from outside the organization.  

Excellent post, Howie.  Yeah, we agree, and I definitely share your fear/concern. 

 

Well said! 

[icehole]

49 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

We know all of the prospects won't pan out. that's why its better to have a lot of them. I'd say we're operating at about 75 % capacity as far as having a strong developmental system.

Especially if we compare what the Flyers have going on to what Toronto has going on, we're not quite there yet.

The Marlies (TORs AHL team) have been a very strong team going on 4 years now, prior to that they were good, but not mauling good teams in the playoffs good. They smoked the Phantoms on their way to the Calder.

Mid-level talent isn't on that Marlies roster, those are all good players, they compete with each other and make each other better. The best of those guys get to the NHL where to no one's surprise they are good NHL players too, the rising talent tide lifts all the ships. Add good players to near generational talents like Matthews and Marner and you see how the Leafs can be very good. 

I don't think the Flyers have enough guys in system to where the tide is cresting like Toronto but it is on the rise. Toronto has had a several year head start because they were terrible for a long time and were finally allowed to bottom out and rebuild.

All the scouting magazines like the Flyers prospects, those guys aren't on the comcast payroll, building a team from the ground up takes time. Hextall apparently didn't have as much as he thought and was too intransigent to modify his plan to suit the corporate masters.

 

 

I hope it is just a matter of time.  I dont know if you live in the Philadelphia area, but the flyers are irrelevant around here since Hextall started his plan(up until monday).  That hurts.  Phillies have been somewhat irrelevant also because their lack of talent.  Sixers should have been irrelevant but the tank was a true topic of conversation, then they acquired some exciting players, and now they probably own the city (not me).  The eagles are immune to being irrelevant just because football rules the city (not me).

 

Just like the eagles are immune on Philadelphia, the leafs are probably immune in Toronto.  I'm sure there was pressure, but they probably weren't hurting to put butts in seats.  They were able to be patient. 

 

The flyers dont have that luxury.  They are basically 5th out of 5 sports at best behind NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAAF, NCAAB...that's actually 6th out of 6.  I want them to climb up at least to 4th.  I think they could be 3rd because baseball is dieing.  If the players pan out, I'm sure they can be talked about a little more, but they wont have any relevance unless they tank for a generational player or they make some big free agency signings.  Hextall wasnt willing to do either.

[flyersfan35]

im thinking that the players that got drafted by hexy, fabree, rubstov, frost, obrien will playing next year and i can see them making a move for panarin or nylander,  on defense they are cleaning house accept provy, ghost, sanheim,  if bryam falls to us, that will be a huge need, i think they will fill last two defenseman in fa,  no clue on goaltending, most likely its going to be trade.

 i can see this team being better next year. that's my opinion.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

Just checked out a mock draft. Thought it would cheer us up

 

 

 

So looks like we need to just keep Hak aboard and let him keep running them into the ground.

 

That could be the quick turn around they need. Patrick-Hughes-Coots are a hell of a nice middle.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think the Flyers have enough guys in system to where the tide is cresting like Toronto but it is on the rise.

 

This is it.

 

Next year is when the huge flood is coming in Frost, Ratcliffe, Allison, Laczynski, Sushko, Strome, Lycksell should be joining them at forward.

 

Bernhardt and Hogberg on the blueline.

 

Sandstrom in goal.

 

Yes the talent pool on the Phantom will rise greatly. Till then they still are playing well for now.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think the Flyers have enough guys in system to where the tide is cresting like Toronto but it is on the rise. Toronto has had a several year head start because they were terrible for a long time and were finally allowed to bottom out and rebuild.

All the scouting magazines like the Flyers prospects, those guys aren't on the comcast payroll, building a team from the ground up takes time. Hextall apparently didn't have as much as he thought and was too intransigent to modify his plan to suit the corporate masters.

 

To amplify your point here, the Maple Leafs have three playoff rounds in thirteen years. And, for that matter, three in the past six, which seems familiar in some way...

 

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Yes the talent pool on the Phantom will rise greatly. Till then they still are playing well for now.

 

And, as I understand it, all of those guys are Hextall picks. They're going to reap the benefits of his tenure while telling everyone how he had to go because he was a big, bad meanie!

 

[Howie58]

One thing we shouldn't worry about: Most Americans would be pooping bricks post-layoff.  I am sure Hexy has a nice severance that will tide him over 'till rehire.  That's to put this in perspective . 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, radoran said:

And, as I understand it, all of those guys are Hextall picks. They're going to reap the benefits of his tenure while telling everyone how he had to go because he was a big, bad meanie!

 

Yeah it happens and it sounds like work in the front office wasn't fun. I have worked in a hostile work environment before it isn't fun.

 

I mean honestly no one i know likes to work...but when it gets like that where there are issues something needed to be done.

 

Like i said if you can believe comments i am sure there are two sides of the story and we haven't heard Hextall's.

 

All i know i really at this point the excuse bucket has to be empty by now....

[radoran]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

Yeah it happens and it sounds like work in the front office wasn't fun. I have worked in a hostile work environment before it isn't fun.

 

I mean honestly no one i know likes to work...but when it gets like that where there are issues something needed to be done.

 

I'm on board with that up to the point where "if they had been winning" then the "hostile work environment" would have been just fine.

 

And, let's face it, that's the problem. They didn't can Hexy because of a "hostile work environment" they canned him because the team is treading water.

[AJgoal]

 

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I don't have the time to look, but I doubt many, if any, of Detroit's famed 4th-7th round gems made it to the NHL while still juniors-eligible.

 

Most of them are fading into history, too. Let's remember that when folks think of Detroit's late round success, they're looking at Lidstrom and Zetterberg and Datsyuk. None of those guys are playing anymore, and were drafted what, twenty years ago? In an era when Detroit was the only team scouting the leagues they were in heavily. Now everyone scouts Russia/Finland/Sweden. There are still late round gems, like Jaime Benn, but no one team is doing it consistently anymore.

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, radoran said:

I'm on board with that up to the point where "if they had been winning" then the "hostile work environment" would have been just fine.

 

Oh yeah winning makes everything all good.

[intheslot]

First off...

Interim GM Paul Holmgren has said he will look to improve upon the goaltending situation even as the Flyers continue to search for a GM...(Flyers talking to several candidates...) The goaltending situation in Philadelphia is the stuff legends are made of at this poiint, and the Flyers need to grab some experience between the pipes. Three goalies I am hearing as possibilities are Jonathan Quick, Craig Anderson, and Mike Smith... Any of these keepers would bring a huge breath of fresh air to the team and would likely inspire the entire lineup.....

Oh Boy... 

 

[elmatus]

6 minutes ago, intheslot said:

Jonathan Quick, Craig Anderson, and Mike Smith

 

So Neuvirth 2.0 and two geezers. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I mean, I do get it. Our weaknesses are no where more glaring than in net. But if this is what we're bringing in... also, what are we giving up here to get someone like Quick? Yeah, he can't stay healthy for more than 25 games in a season, but he's also shown flashes of very good play at times. I can't imagine he'd be cheap to acquire.

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

So Neuvirth 2.0 and two geezers. What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

 

[mkscrewy]

pickard gone... not a bummer, but i guess upper management is just crossing their fingers hoping one of those three other goalies will be healthy enough for Saturday.

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, mkscrewy said:

pickard gone... not a bummer, but i guess upper management is just crossing their fingers hoping one of those three other goalies will be healthy enough for Saturday.

 

It will be Stolie in net and Neuvy backing him up. Iread he was ready.

 

If not then Lyon will be called up to back Stolie up. No worries.

[brelic]

15 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

So Neuvirth 2.0 and two geezers. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I mean, I do get it. Our weaknesses are no where more glaring than in net. But if this is what we're bringing in... also, what are we giving up here to get someone like Quick? Yeah, he can't stay healthy for more than 25 games in a season, but he's also shown flashes of very good play at times. I can't imagine he'd be cheap to acquire.

 

I would ask, to what end? So that we can finish just outside of the playoffs and get a mid-round pick? 

 

If Ottawa gets rid of Anderson, they're doing the sensible thing and edging closer to a guy like Hughes. 

 

If we get Anderson, it just brings us further away from that possibility, and I can almost guarantee we will miss the playoffs this year. According to past years, there's a 78% chance we miss. 

 

We should be looking to *shed* a goaltender, not add one. Shed Neuvirth, and roll with Elliott/Stolarz. When Elliott gets hurt, give Lyon or Hart (just a taste in 2019, say) a chance at backup. 

 

Look to *shed* players, not add some. Replace them with guys like Vorobyev and NAK and Kase and Myers and Friedman. 

 

But Holmgren just can't help himself. He's going to want to push for on-ice success *right now* and a playoff berth. There's no way he's going to get rid of established veterans for unproven rookies - that would be the complete opposite of what he and Scott were saying. That they need to see on-ice success now.

 

Prove me wrong, Homer. Please.

 

 

 

[Podein25]

6 minutes ago, brelic said:

But Holmgren just can't help himself. He's going to want to push for on-ice success *right now* and a playoff berth. There's no way he's going to get rid of established veterans for unproven rookies - that would be the complete opposite of what he and Scott were saying. That they need to see on-ice success now.

 

It's exactly like the behavior of an addict. 

[elmatus]

1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

 

It's exactly like the behavior of an addict. 

 

I think you just won the internet for the day. Let's just all pack it up and call it folks.

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I think you just won the internet for the day. Let's just all pack it up and call it folks.

 

I've never won the internet before so I'm not sure....[checks Twitter] , but I don't think I want it, thanks.