OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: First and Third he could have had IMHO. Yeah the first one he should have had but he is 6-6 the price you pay having a huge 5 hole... ...and two of the goals if only Mcdud could play some defense on... ...if he could only deflect a goal in the other net.... ...and then WTF is he doing here....he gets out there but then doesn't even get his stick on the shot... ...just get the douchebag out the lineup...Stolie made a lot of huge saves last night...unfortunately for him the refs missed a few calls on the Jackets and it might not have mattered since they can't score on the powerplay anyway. And the Flyers can't even hit an empty net. They should have won this won in regulation...Bob was shaky as hell...he 867% shows it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 29 minutes ago, Poulin20 said: Can you guys believe it that since we have had this stupid lottery system in place that 2X we have had the #2 pick and the players have been underwhelming to say the least? Let's look at this a bit closer... #2 overall pick 2007 - JVR 2008 - Drew Doughty 2009 - Victor Hedman 2010 - Tyler Seguin 2011 - Gabriel Landeskog 2012 - Ryan Murray 2013 - Aleksander Barkov 2014 - Sam Reinhart 2015 - Jack Eichel 2016 - Patrik Laine 2017 - Nolan Patrick 2018 - Andrei Svechnikov Anyone from that list you would rank below Patrick and JVR? Murray is the only one, I'd say. Svechnikov has more points than Patrick, and he's an 18 year old rookie. And from Patrick's draft year, Hischier is ahead of him (almost double the production), but also Pettersson and Heiskanen (as a D-man), and both those guys are rookies this year. You could say the common theme is that we had the #2 pick in poor draft years... or you could say the common theme is the Flyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 3 hours ago, brelic said: Yes, but then he stayed in no man's land, staring off into space. He was in a position to cover no one at that point. Bad pass from Couturier initially, but then bad decision on coverage by Provorov. Tough spot for Provorov. In regulation, he's probably fine supporting Couturier on the wall since he's likely to have defensive support for a cross ice pass. Not in OT where it's 3-v-3. He got caught in a bad place and Couturier made a weak play along the board. Would like to see the replay to see what TK was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 What cracks me up in your examples is that at least MacDonald still even had a stick in his hands for them! This team's defensive positioning is a constant source of crap. 6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Yeah the first one he should have had but he is 6-6 the price you pay having a huge 5 hole... ...and two of the goals if only Mcdud could play some defense on... ...if he could only deflect a goal in the other net.... ...and then WTF is he doing here....he gets out there but then doesn't even get his stick on the shot... ...just get the douchebag out the lineup...Stolie made a lot of huge saves last night...unfortunately for him the refs missed a few calls on the Jackets and it might not have mattered since they can't score on the powerplay anyway. And the Flyers can't even hit an empty net. They should have won this won in regulation...Bob was shaky as hell...he 867% shows it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Just now, vis said: Tough spot for Provorov. In regulation, he's probably fine supporting Couturier on the wall since he's likely to have defensive support for a cross ice pass. Not in OT where it's 3-v-3. He got caught in a bad place and Couturier made a weak play along the board. Would like to see the replay to see what TK was doing. Exactly. 5v5, he's in the right spot to provide support along the wall, and the other defender is protecting the front of the net. But 3v3, if there's two guys on one opponent, that means they have one guy with no coverage and plenty of open space out there, which is exactly what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, brelic said: Let's look at this a bit closer... #2 overall pick 2007 - JVR 2008 - Drew Doughty 2009 - Victor Hedman 2010 - Tyler Seguin 2011 - Gabriel Landeskog 2012 - Ryan Murray 2013 - Aleksander Barkov 2014 - Sam Reinhart 2015 - Jack Eichel 2016 - Patrik Laine 2017 - Nolan Patrick 2018 - Andrei Svechnikov Anyone from that list you would rank below Patrick and JVR? Murray is the only one, I'd say. Svechnikov has more points than Patrick, and he's an 18 year old rookie. And from Patrick's draft year, Hischier is ahead of him (almost double the production), but also Pettersson and Heiskanen (as a D-man), and both those guys are rookies this year. You could say the common theme is that we had the #2 pick in poor draft years... or you could say the common theme is the Flyers. I said this last night in my rant to rux last night in this thread. And in the shoutbox i guess you guys missed. This guy play so uninspiring it's hard to watch it's like he is scared to be hit as soon as he receives the puck he looks to get rid of it like a hot potato... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 14 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Figures the Flyers get a 2nd pick in the draft and they get Patrick. Couldn't be a Laine, Eichel, Barkov, Seguin, Hedman or Doughty type. Friggin Capatain Invisible.... @brelic Here is the post from last night....sure i was pissed but i meant it. Just the Flyers luck...and then they put the two heartless guys on the same line!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, vis said: Would like to see the replay to see what TK was doing He was cherry picking is what he was doing...and they lose so it's on all 3 of those guys...not sure why you wouldn't start Giroux out here so he can play the most during OT if it when the distance....isn't of the sloth Coots.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: This guy play so uninspiring it's hard to watch it's like he is scared to be hit as soon as he receives the puck he looks to get rid of it like a hot potato... He's been watching Jake too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 hours ago, murraycraven said: JvR IMO needs a setup guy... he is not going to create his own chances normally. Yeah strange to put 3 guys who have the same game sort of standing near the net screening and looking for deflections and garbage goals in JVR, Patrick and Simmer on the same line...Hak can't blame that on Ron i mean who really is going to fetch the puck and get it the guys standing near the net with all three of them doing the same thing..and then neither 3 of them can get to the loose puck...CRAZY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Yeah strange to put 3 guys who have the same game sort of standing near the net screening and looking for deflections and garbage goals in JVR, Patrick and Simmer on the same line...Hak can't blame that on Ron i mean who really is going to fetch the puck and get it the guys standing near the net with all three of them doing the same thing..and then neither 3 of them can get to the loose puck...CRAZY! Yup. Either slide Giroux back to C for a bit, Coots as 2C and Patrick as 3C, or bring up Vorobyev to be 3C. I'd hate to move G because he's having a great season and the top line is the only one going. On the other hand, maybe that kind of shakeup gets some of the other guys going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Poulin20 said: Can you guys believe it that since we have had this stupid lottery system in place that 2X we have had the #2 pick and the players have been underwhelming to say the least? Hell i think they really would have been better off taking Miro Heiskanen with the 2nd overall he is play some good minutes for the Stars as a 19 year old. 4 goals 8 assist in 28 games...that would be tied with the Flyer lead on their blueline and he is only -1 unlike Ghost who is -14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Just now, OccamsRazor said: Ghost who is -14. Ouch! I mean, yes, Heiskanen is solid, and Pettersson is having an amazing run as a rookie, but I don't think any GM would have passed on Patrick at #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, brelic said: Ouch! I mean, yes, Heiskanen is solid, and Pettersson is having an amazing run as a rookie, but I don't think any GM would have passed on Patrick at #2. That is why you slide back if you can and take one of these two...but maybe with Patrick injury history no one wanted to have the 2nd...that way they can say hey we took the best player available...anyway i wish Patrick would go see the Wizard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 56 minutes ago, brelic said: Let's look at this a bit closer... #2 overall pick 2007 - JVR 2008 - Drew Doughty 2009 - Victor Hedman 2010 - Tyler Seguin 2011 - Gabriel Landeskog 2012 - Ryan Murray 2013 - Aleksander Barkov 2014 - Sam Reinhart 2015 - Jack Eichel 2016 - Patrik Laine 2017 - Nolan Patrick 2018 - Andrei Svechnikov Anyone from that list you would rank below Patrick and JVR? Murray is the only one, I'd say. Svechnikov has more points than Patrick, and he's an 18 year old rookie. And from Patrick's draft year, Hischier is ahead of him (almost double the production), but also Pettersson and Heiskanen (as a D-man), and both those guys are rookies this year. You could say the common theme is that we had the #2 pick in poor draft years... or you could say the common theme is the Flyers. I think deduction would suggest the most likely cause of this Phenomenon is as likely to be utilization as it is dumb luck. I firmly believe that Patrick is extremely talented. More talented certainly than we are seeing. I went off about this in another post, but the Flyers do not now (perhaps more than ever) seem interested in playing to a potential star's strengths. They want everyone to be Jonathan Toews (regardless of the fact that few have that skillset) and no one to be Patrick Kane. This goes back at least to Ken Hitchcock in my opinion and has been a cultural thing ever since. And it goes beyond youth too. Did LeClair decline because Lindros went away or did the fact that his coach started making him back check and not go to the places he scored from more the same season have something to do with it? Justin WIlliams, Ruslan Fedotenko, Simon Gagne... all extremely talented scoring threats, Hitch made them all play defense first and benched them when the dared lean on scoring more than staying home. Only Gagne was skilled enough to pull it off well at the time. I'll admit that this early frustration probably made Willy and Rusty much better when they went on to win cups with other teams, but it didn't make them very good prospects as Flyers and they got traded before they could become what they would be. Giroux took three seasons to get going and was relegated to third line duty for most of that time. JVR got traded before he could start putting it all together. Combine that with him insisting on finishing his last year of college and it seemed like he was taking forever, so they traded him. Now he's back and oh look... he's not scoring again. Schenn finally got his offense together (mostly on the PP, but goals are goals) and they traded him for two picks which now appear to be more young skilled players they'll likely give up on too soon. Are the Flyers doing it wrong? I don't know. Maybe. What I do know is that expecting players to develop the way the Flyers have for the past and then not giving them the added time that that kind of development needs is idiotic. THey're certainly doing that wrong. They stuck it out with Giroux and Couturier because they essentially had no choice and frankly each player made his case for being extremely skilled at ONE aspect of the game before becoming more well rounded and good at both (though they were opposite aspects) . I guess the point I'm meandering around getting to is that for maybe 18+ years or so, the Flyers have expected a defensively responsible game FIRST from their young forwards and then get impatient, when they can't put that together with the offensive production of their peers around the league, so they dump them. My suggestion is that the best way for a forward to prevent goals in their own end is to be forechecking, then pressuring and scoring them in the other end. That's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: He was cherry picking is what he was doing...and they lose so it's on all 3 of those guys...not sure why you wouldn't start Giroux out here so he can play the most during OT if it when the distance....isn't of the sloth Coots.... TK was fine. It wasn't his man that scored the goal. The third Blue Jacket wasn't involved in the play. Provo didn't switch he brain to OT mode. That's all there was to it. Coots could have been super and shut down the play and gotten control of the puck, but he tied up the man which is what he's supposed to do. At that point if Provo is in the middle of the ice instead of along the boards, he can cut off the pass or contest the shot. YOu can complain about TK if Provo does that and the third blue jacket gets up there in time to be open for the wide open pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, King Knut said: the Flyers do not now (perhaps more than ever) seem interested in playing to a potential star's strengths I got what you're saying and him playing defense is no excuse....for 9 games now i can't in no way believe he is being coached to play as passive and unskilled as he has displayed now...that is on the 2nd overall pick...noone else...not sure what is going on with him. I am out of answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: I got what you're saying and him playing defense is no excuse....for 9 games now i can't in no way believe he is being coached to play as passive and unskilled as he has displayed now...that is on the 2nd overall pick...noone else...not sure what is going on with him. I am out of answers. You're 100% correct, he's probably not being coached to play passive and unskilled, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he's just confused as hell as to what to do and what he is definitely NOT being encouraged to do is what he naturally does best. bad coaching isn't just a coach sending his guys to the wrong places (like our defense seems to systematically do and like they seem to get benched for NOT doing) it's often just strictly enforcing an adherence to guys playing away from their natural skill sets which leaves them confused. It's not that he's passive, it's that he doesn't know how to do what he's being coached to do and he's probably fighting what he wants to do naturally. Sometimes this is necessarily learning, but I believe it's likely that with the Flyers (which goes well beyond Hak for me). Some players can make this transition, but it takes a TON of time. It took Ghost three years and look at him this year? Confused and playing like crap all over again. It's just not easy and our track record suggests that it's not worthwhile. I should amend my previous email because Laviolette was the one Flyers coach who really seemed to encourage players to do what they did best. It's difficult to say with Stevens because he knew his core players so well that he likely built his system around their strengths and when you toss in the likes of Briere & Timmonen, they're experienced and skilled enough to adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: You're 100% correct, he's probably not being coached to play passive and unskilled, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he's just confused as hell as to what to do and what he is definitely NOT being encouraged to do is what he naturally does best. Well they maybe need to drop him down to the 3rd and let him play against lesser competition until he comes around. The need that 2nd line firing and helping out the top line. 4 minutes ago, King Knut said: I should amend my previous email because Laviolette was the one Flyers coach who really seemed to encourage players to do what they did best. Well now this is on the coach and how is throwing out his lines and their make up. Time for him to give some kids more minutes and responsibility...these vets ain't getting it done. Kids have upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: He was cherry picking is what he was doing...and they lose so it's on all 3 of those guys...not sure why you wouldn't start Giroux out here so he can play the most during OT if it when the distance....isn't of the sloth Coots.... Yes, along with Ghost and Jake. That's how you win OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 AMEN!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 Regarding Patrick; what's sad is that there were times last year he really seemed to get it and throw his weight around. He looks discombobulated most of the time this year...scratch that...almost all the time. But....Provy and Ghost haven't been themselves either. Maybe we should just throw up our hands on AMac and have a countdown clock like the old doomsday clock from the Cold War era. We lose him in what..a year...maybe he get bought out...Let's stop aggravating ourselves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, Howie58 said: Maybe we should just throw up our hands on AMac and have a countdown clock like the old doomsday clock from the Cold War era What is crazy is that Mcdud and his contract outlived Hextall and his stay with the Flyers...........just wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 Well: A buyout is becoming more financially feasible and defensible: https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/andrew-macdonald/2019-06-15 Perhaps our new GM decides to cut him loose....or maybe he gets picked up in some fancy trade and someone picks up the tab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Howie58 said: Well: A buyout is becoming more financially feasible and defensible: https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/andrew-macdonald/2019-06-15 Perhaps our new GM decides to cut him loose....or maybe he gets picked up in some fancy trade and someone picks up the tab. I say do it just to free up the roster spot. I am just plain tired of seeing #47 out there...do it and be done with it. Lehtera will be gone, Weal will be gone. I wouldn't mind swapping Simmer out for Stone to audition him for a RW spot and then give him Simmer's money. I would bring Raffl back as a 12th/13th forward. Only one more year of Weise. 28 Claude Giroux - 14 Sean Couturier - 11 Travis Konecny25 James van Riemsdyk - 19 Nolan Patrick - 61 Mark Stone23 Oskar Lindblom- 24 Misha Vorobyev - 93 Jakub Voracek12 Michael Raffl - 21 Scott Laughton - 22 Dale Weise Hopefully by next year Patrick and JVR have found some chemistry to get that 2nd line going and then to add a power forward like Stone too it should be a solid upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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