What is Wrong with Provorov?

[King Knut]

I think it's high time the team addresses this question. 

To me, it's been a more glaring problem all year than anything Hextall did or didn't do.  the OT goal last night seals the deal.  

 

If you told me this is an entirely different player, I would have no trouble believing you.  He looks terrible.

 

So what the hell is it?  At first I was afraid his shoulder was still injured and he wasn't telling anyone, but that OT goal last night was the dude just not paying attention to jack.  Coots clearly had the man locked up and Provo is just staring at them wrestling while the trailer comes in wide open for an easy goal.  This is not a shoulder.  This isn't a lack of hustle even... this is a young man simply not paying attention to the game.  

 

It's something I'd accept from a rookie his age, but he's not a rookie.  He's a third year guy who has NEVER looked quite this bad in either of his first two years.

 

Does anyone know what the hell is going on?  

 

I know Ghost hasn't been great either btw, but he doesn't look as bad and he's never been as positionally and defensively minded as Provorov has been so I'm less concerned.  

 

Gudas, Sanheim, Hagg and God help me MacDonald all look better right now, but are getting fewer minutes (in some cases HALF the minutes).  

 

Anyone got insight?

[OccamsRazor]

 

Guy is just overthinking everything it seems. He is inside his own head.

 

First thing i would do is get him off the 2nd power play. Give Sanheim his minutes.

 

PP1: Van Riemsdyk, Couturier, Voracek, Gostisbehere, Giroux
PP2: Simmonds, Patrick, Konecny, Sanheim, Lindblom

[darthbal]

He probably needs a little break; like it was said, "he is inside his own head".

 

I would like to think that reducing his playing time a few minutes, not just taking him off the 2nd PP, and maybe some one on one time with Wilson should help.

 

But then the question becomes: who can play against other teams' big line if it ain't Provy?

 

[brelic]

I gotta figure it's just the bumps and bruises that come with young kids. Lindblom, Sanheim, Patrick, TK, Provorov... they've all had their ups and downs, and when we say we'd much prefer having the kids play - mistakes and all - this is what it looks like. 

 

I'm not worried about Provorov long-term because he's shown he can play at a high level. What I don't understand is that Hak isn't making adjustments the way he does with TK, Sanheim, Lindblom... 

 

Like OR said, at the very least, take Provorov off PP2 and give Sanheim a shot there. He looks more comfortable than Provy.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

mistakes and all

 

Mistakes i can live with no doubt but the indifferent play from Patrick in inexcusable i think...he has to be held accountable...drop him down to the 3rd and hell if no one else is available give Laughton the 2nd line spot at least he hustles...he must stop with the dumb penalties...get Patrick off the 2nd line ASAP.

[flyer4ever]

Nothing is wrong with him. He is a kid growing up on a team without coaching or leadership.

[icehole]

I dont want to bash him because I know he is young and he probably will be good (I dont think great) one day.  But besides small stretches here and there last year where he played well, he hasn't shown me anything that puts him ahead of anyone else at his age or experience.

 

So what's wrong with him?  Is it possible that he's just not a special player like everyone thought he was going to be?

[ruxpin]

4 hours ago, King Knut said:

I think it's high time the team addresses this question. 

To me, it's been a more glaring problem all year than anything Hextall did or didn't do.  the OT goal last night seals the deal.  

 

If you told me this is an entirely different player, I would have no trouble believing you.  He looks terrible.

 

So what the hell is it?  At first I was afraid his shoulder was still injured and he wasn't telling anyone, but that OT goal last night was the dude just not paying attention to jack.  Coots clearly had the man locked up and Provo is just staring at them wrestling while the trailer comes in wide open for an easy goal.  This is not a shoulder.  This isn't a lack of hustle even... this is a young man simply not paying attention to the game.  

 

It's something I'd accept from a rookie his age, but he's not a rookie.  He's a third year guy who has NEVER looked quite this bad in either of his first two years.

 

Does anyone know what the hell is going on?  

 

I know Ghost hasn't been great either btw, but he doesn't look as bad and he's never been as positionally and defensively minded as Provorov has been so I'm less concerned.  

 

Gudas, Sanheim, Hagg and God help me MacDonald all look better right now, but are getting fewer minutes (in some cases HALF the minutes).  

 

Anyone got insight?

I get the general question, but I saw that specific play very differently. 

 

To your general question, I really think Gord Murphy has both him and Ghost all screwed up. It'll get better, but it may take most of the rest of the season. 

 

I know this is really stretching into fantasy speculation land, but I'm actually serious when I say I suspect it's something nutritional. 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

Nothing is wrong with him. He is a kid growing up on a team without coaching or leadership.

This.  He's not 22 yet and has been asked for 2 years to be THE guy. He's 13th in the league in ATOI and younger than anyone near him. It's not even close. And against the toughest opposition. "Not ahead of anyone his age or experience" is just talking out of the wrong end. 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

Nothing is wrong with him. He is a kid growing up on a team without coaching or leadership.

 

Yep.
He is just going through a normal process of having a good season prior (he actually was progressing the last two seasons production wise), and just hit a bit of a wall this season....and with being asked to do more than he should, it is understandable.

He and TB's Mikhail Sergachev were talked about as two guys who would be compared to each other for years to come...and I believe that to be the case still.....but if you look over at the Lightning, Sergachev has also hit a wall a bit on his second full season after a very good 40 pt season prior (Provorov had 41 last year).

And Serge is on a DEEPER team and still it happens.
Part of the process.
Don't be surprised if Provorov bounces right back next season, or even has a strong finish to this one.
He is too good to stay floundering for very long.

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Yep.
He is just going through a normal process of having a good season prior (he actually was progressing the last two seasons production wise), and just hit a bit of a wall this season....and with being asked to do more than he should, it is understandable.

He and TB's Mikhail Sergachev were talked about as two guys who would be compared to each other for years to come...and I believe that to be the case still.....but if you look over at the Lightning, Sergachev has also hit a wall a bit on his second full season after a very good 40 pt season prior (Provorov had 41 last year).

And Serge is on a DEEPER team and still it happens.
Part of the process.
Don't be surprised if Provorov bounces right back next season, or even has a strong finish to this one.
He is too good to stay floundering for very long.

Right. Sergachev is developing well, but he does have Hedman, McDonagh, among others ahead of him. And even a vet like Coburn.  Provorov has... No one. And a defensive coach whose only purpose was apparently to spy.  And yeah, it's only his 3rd year. At 21.

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

To your general question, I really think Gord Murphy has both him and Ghost all screwed up.

 

To go with what you said how much of what Hextall did maybe messed with his brain...

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/flyers/if-not-contract-situation-could-anything-be-weighing-ivan-provorov

 

“We worked at Provy all summer — three months on and off and we couldn’t come to middle ground," Hextall said. "It was absolutely no animosity."

 

“It’s not hard for me,” Provorov said. “I wasn’t really getting involved. I love hockey for everything it brings. When I came back here, I was just happy to be back with the boys and get the season going. Whatever happens, happens — and it happens for a reason. But I love playing here.”

[OccamsRazor]

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

This. 

 

Exactly and the guys, the "vets" he has to lean on as far as players are Mcturd and Gudas...

 

...who both struggle themselves at times to guess which way the elevator is heading if they get 3 guesses...

[brelic]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I know this is really stretching into fantasy speculation land, but I'm actually serious when I say I suspect it's something nutritional.

 

Maybe he ate contraband pizza. 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Maybe he ate contraband pizza. 

 

Expired cheesesteak will do that to you every time as well...  

[ruxpin]

18 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Maybe he ate contraband pizza. 

Lol

 

I'm actually thinking about Hextall's insistence on specific diets. 

 

I think Murphy screwing with him and Ghost combined with being "the guy" so young are more likely. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

There was an article not long after Hextall and Murphy were fired that talked about how Provorov, Gostisbehere and Sanheim weren't on the same page as Murphy and there were trust issues. I also think the playoff series against the Pens had a profound effect on him. I think he hasn't forgotten that series and he plays it over and over in his head.

 

Provorov needs a veteran and a coach in the worst kind of way right now. The good news is that Rick Wilson has a history of working with all world defensemen, so it won't be hard to get Provy back on track. I'm not sure what veteran could be had that could help out, although I've always been partial to Duncan Keith. However, the Blackhawks would probably want a ton for him and his contract is a bit worrisome.

 

 

[brelic]

What about trading Simmonds for Keith, and they retain $2M. That makes his cap hit $3.5M for 4 more years. 

 

Chicago gets rid of that contract - mostly - and gain an expiring player in Simmonds, so no commitment beyond this year which is good for a team in their down cycle. Start fresh next year. 

 

For the Flyers, they get a great mentor for Provy, Sanheim, Ghost, Hagg, Myers, Morin. 

 

Here’s why the term wouldn’t worry me.

 

At the end of the season, buy out AMac. That gets $5M off the books, but more importantly, it removes a body on D. 

 

You would also have to consider moving one more. With Morin and Myers knocking on the door, you have to open up some space. 

 

Trade Gudas? Maybe, but I do like his sandpaper. Is Hagg enough of a similar guy to offset that? Could be.

 

But Keith as a mentor is an upgrade to what we have. 

 

And if it doesn’t work out after a few seasons, well, that just happens to be around the time the CBA is up. An amnesty buyout might come in handy. 

 

Just some thoughts on a Friday. 

 

Even with only Keith as the “vet”, we’d be clogged on D. 

 

Keith, Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Hagg, Myers, Morin.

[ruxpin]

52 minutes ago, brelic said:

What about trading Simmonds for Keith, and they retain $2M. That makes his cap hit $3.5M for 4 more years. 

 

Chicago gets rid of that contract - mostly - and gain an expiring player in Simmonds, so no commitment beyond this year which is good for a team in their down cycle. Start fresh next year. 

 

For the Flyers, they get a great mentor for Provy, Sanheim, Ghost, Hagg, Myers, Morin. 

 

Here’s why the term wouldn’t worry me.

 

At the end of the season, buy out AMac. That gets $5M off the books, but more importantly, it removes a body on D. 

 

You would also have to consider moving one more. With Morin and Myers knocking on the door, you have to open up some space. 

 

Trade Gudas? Maybe, but I do like his sandpaper. Is Hagg enough of a similar guy to offset that? Could be.

 

But Keith as a mentor is an upgrade to what we have. 

 

And if it doesn’t work out after a few seasons, well, that just happens to be around the time the CBA is up. An amnesty buyout might come in handy. 

 

Just some thoughts on a Friday. 

 

Even with only Keith as the “vet”, we’d be clogged on D. 

 

Keith, Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Hagg, Myers, Morin.

No thank you. He's signed through 40 and already slow. 

 

Plus, if/when Chicago is able to make that contract, they really need to get something out of it other than an expiring contract. 

 

Sorry, it was a good effort, but I personally wouldn't be interested.

[RonJeremy]

Aside from. A crappy coach, slumping, overuse,etc I think Provorov has not fully recovered from his shoulder injury. He doesn’t seem to have strength and he’s not shooting the puck like he was last year.

[icehole]

Sorry, I thought this might be the one time a player actually lived up to the hype sooner than expected.  I guess we'll just have to wait 7 years to see how he progresses.  Must be a thing with flyers picks 8th and below.

 

I respect most of the posters on here, and to tell you the truth, most have way more knowledge than I do.  I think that's the problem most of the time though.  While everyone is paying attention to what a kid has been doing since he was 10 years old, watching how well he can do a backward crossover skate, how long his stick is, what his corsi is, how many defensive starts he has, I'm looking at an 2nd year NHL defenseman that cant play right now.  I'm seeing unforced turnovers for no reason.  I'm seeing flubbed shots from the point.  I'm seeing mishandled passes and lack of coverage in OT.

 

I dont know if it's all his fault, but I can see with my own 2 eyes that it's happening.  Does everyone else see something different?  Have there been more positive moments in his career so far than negative?  I have to say I dont think so.

[OccamsRazor]

35 minutes ago, icehole said:

I'm looking at an 2nd year NHL defenseman that cant play right now. 

 

There is your answer right there.

 

Read that sentence over again.

 

You are stressing about a kid who is having a rough start to the year after coming off shoulder surgery in a contract year where many on the team are struggling.

 

Don't be so down on the kid he will rebound.

 

He is just 21.

 

Just look at the year Ghost is having too they just fired their shi tty defensive coach.

 

Give them some time to fix this...

 

...it isn't a quick fix.

 

And not that it changes anything but it's his 3rd year.

 

Still just 21 years old.

 

And what do you expect when the vet he has to lean on is none other than Andrew Macdonald....yikes!

[icehole]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

There is your answer right there.

 

Read that sentence over again.

 

You are stressing about a kid who is having a rough start to the year after coming off shoulder surgery in a contract year where many on the team are struggling.

 

Don't be so down on the kid he will rebound.

 

He is just 21.

 

Just look at the year Ghost is having too they just fired their shi tty defensive coach.

 

Give them some time to fix this...

 

...it isn't a quick fix.

 

And not that it changes anything but it's his 3rd year.

 

Still just 21 years old.

 

And what do you expect when the vet he has to lean on is none other than Andrew Macdonald....yikes!

I'm down on him now because I've seen more negative than positive, last year included.  I'm not saying he cant or won't get better, but all if have to work with is what I've seen.

 

Ghost is also having a bad year.  Ghost has more tangible talent to me than Provorov does though.  That's why I actually think Ghost could have a better career than provorov (The entire fanbase: "THIS GUY IS A MORON!"). 

 

Provorov's talents I've seen so far

1. He is good at containing a rush to the outside.

2. He is good at skating the puck out of his zone.

 

Ghost talents I've seen so far

1.  Illusive with the puck through 2 zones

2.  Good shot

3.  Good at keeping the puck in the zone

4.  Able to get open on PP.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting things, and this isn't about who is better.  My point is those two things I've listed are the only 2 things I've seen from provorov so far.  I've seen so much discussion on how he does so many things so well, but I haven't seen it.

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, icehole said:

I'm down on him now because I've seen more negative than positive, last year included.  I'm not saying he cant or won't get better, but all if have to work with is what I've seen.

 

Ghost is also having a bad year.  Ghost has more tangible talent to me than Provorov does though.  That's why I actually think Ghost could have a better career than provorov (The entire fanbase: "THIS GUY IS A MORON!"). 

 

Provorov's talents I've seen so far

1. He is good at containing a rush to the outside.

2. He is good at skating the puck out of his zone.

 

Ghost talents I've seen so far

1.  Illusive with the puck through 2 zones

2.  Good shot

3.  Good at keeping the puck in the zone

4.  Able to get open on PP.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting things, and this isn't about who is better.  My point is those two things I've listed are the only 2 things I've seen from provorov so far.  I've seen so much discussion on how he does so many things so well, but I haven't seen it.

 

Sounds like you are zeroing in on him.

 

But can you imagine the pressure that is on a 21 year old kid with the expectations of being the Flyers #1 defenseman?

 

Guys struggle it happens.

 

It is also why some us like @flyercanuck say despite how well they play in junior sometimes some seasoning in the AHL can't hurt to help slowly transition them to the pros.

 

Not particularly in Ivan's case I thought he was ready and I knew there would be ups and downs.

 

And that is what we are seeing now.

 

But as I said there are many on the team struggling.

 

It happens getting out of this going through adversity builds character they will make them better in the future.

 

The have a coach who is on borrowed time and a new position coach....patience Daniel san.

[OccamsRazor]

15 minutes ago, icehole said:

I'm down on him now because I've seen more negative than positive, last year included.

 

Just look at #1 overall Ekblad he struggled his 3rd year after injury....he managed only 21 points in 68 games and finished -23.

 

It happens pressure can break pipes or make diamonds.

 

We'll see how Ivan rebounds I have faith in him.