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icehole

Giroux - Best Flyer Ever?

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43 minutes ago, otto12 said:

Number one wore #1.

Goalie is obviously a different category. 

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Icehole; Giroux is a truly great player. The Flyers are very fortunate to have him. But he is nowhere near Bobby Clarke's level. #1 Clarke, # 2 Parent, or #1 Parent, #2 Clarke.

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1 hour ago, icehole said:

So I mentioned it in passing in another thread, but I wanted to expand a little bit.  I started thinking about it more and looking back at what Giroux has accomplished.

 

Most people know the stat by now - Giroux is close to Crosby for the most points since 2011/2012.  That got me thinking.  Crosby is considered to be the best player of the past decade.  Some may say he is the best ever.  Forget about that for a second, and think about what Giroux has had to work with compared to what Lindros had to work with.

 

In that time frame, Giroux started with old Jagr and maybe a little bit of old Briere on his line.  But then think about some of his linemates since then.  Matt Read, Scott Hartnell, Michael Raffl, Lecavelier, Jake Voracek, and more recently couturier and TK have all spent a lot of time on a line with Giroux.  Compare that to Lindros's linemates.  While you're at it, go back and look at Crosby's lines, and you can also look at the penguins other lines that the opposition had to concentrate on.

 

The flyers have been a 1 line team since that 2011/2012 team, and that 1 line hasn't consistently had more than 1 good player on it.  So with all eyes on him, and having garbage to work with, Giroux is still right on the heels of Crosby for points.

 

That's pretty impressive. 

 

I think at some point the closer you get to the top the more impossible comparisons like these get. So many factors come into play of course, including the style of the game in different eras, as well as linemates as you mentioned.

 

Still, I've seen way too many people brandishing criticisms against Giroux of late on this forum. I just can't understand it for a minute. Yeah, the team is doing poorly, but that has nothing to do with Giroux imo. He's not even in the top rung of reasons why this team is sucking currently.

 

Need a goal? Throw in Giroux. Need someone who can create space in tight? Throw in Giroux. Need someone who barely ever makes a mistake with the puck? Yep, Giroux. Overtime? Giroux. Oh, is there a super important faceoff coming up? You guessed it -- Giroux to the rescue. Sure, he's not Lindros. He's not going to push around half the league like a giant among dwarves. But he's got so many other skills that frankly are much more important to the game in 2018.

 

If it wasn't for Giroux, there would barely be any hope game in and game out. And while we're at it, the same can be said of last season where he decided to go 100+ pts and put the team on his back. He is a gamechanger. And given how relatively few of those we've had, he's clearly a contender for best Flyer ever. Whether he's no.1 or 2 or 3 or 4, that's just impossible to answer without a more focused metric, but he's clearly in the running no matter the yardstick you choose.

 

Edited by elmatus
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I would go Parent then Clarke then Lindros, then Giroux .

 

16 is still way way out front when it comes to production. And he did solidify the team's love affair with the city by winning those cups. Lindros had great hands and was enormous.  Had he learned to keep his head up and wasn't targeted by 27 goons a season, who knows how great he could have been.

 

I put Parent first because he was nicer  to me when I met him,  he encouraged me to play hockey and told my step dad to "get the boy some pads". 

I saw REC often when he was GM at the Hershey Park Arena, he never had time to say hello to a teenager and that left an impression too. 

 

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Lindros - most naturally physically dominant player

Clarke - greatest leader and captain

Giroux - most highly skilled.

 

However, I still say, although I'm in the minority that the most important piece to those Cup teams was Bernie. Without him, we don't have a Stanley Cup in our entire history. I almost want to say that we could have won one of those 2 Cups without Clarke, but I won't say it. I'll type it.

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To me, its 

 

1) Bernie

2) Clarke

3) Lindros, although Giroux is closing in on him. Fast.

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It's Clarke number one for me. He was the penultimate Flyer. I'd then rate Parent number two and honestly, I think Giroux is the third best Flyer of all time. I have him ahead of Lindros. I get that Eric was an all world talent, no doubt about it. But all that baggage that came with him was just too much. His mom and dad were a nightmare to the franchise and honestly, when you consider that Eric also burnt bridges in New York and Toronto, well, what more can be said about just how divisive and polarizing he can be. Giroux is none of that. Honestly, he's been the flag bearer for the Flyers and it's absolutely shameful how they continually waste the best from him. Eric had tons of talent around him. 

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8 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I think at some point the closer you get to the top the more impossible comparisons like these get. So many factors come into play of course, including the style of the game in different eras, as well as linemates as you mentioned.

 

Still, I've seen way too many people brandishing criticisms against Giroux of late on this forum. I just can't understand it for a minute. Yeah, the team is doing poorly, but that has nothing to do with Giroux imo. He's not even in the top rung of reasons why this team is sucking currently.

 

Need a goal? Throw in Giroux. Need someone who can create space in tight? Throw in Giroux. Need someone who barely ever makes a mistake with the puck? Yep, Giroux. Overtime? Giroux. Oh, is there a super important faceoff coming up? You guessed it -- Giroux to the rescue. Sure, he's not Lindros. He's not going to push around half the league like a giant among dwarves. But he's got so many other skills that frankly are much more important to the game in 2018.

 

If it wasn't for Giroux, there would barely be any hope game in and game out. And while we're at it, the same can be said of last season where he decided to go 100+ pts and put the team on his back. He is a gamechanger. And given how relatively few of those we've had, he's clearly a contender for best Flyer ever. Whether he's no.1 or 2 or 3 or 4, that's just impossible to answer without a more focused metric, but he's clearly in the running no matter the yardstick you choose.

 

When talking about "the best", it comes down to feel.  Like you said, he is so important to this team and he's the only reason they ever have a chance.

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It looks like a lot of people have him in the top 5 of all time.  I came around on Hextalls plan toward the end.  I knew that we had to build through the draft.  A major flaw to his plan was that he wasnt "going for it" when he had the 2nd or 3rd best player in flyers history.  By the time his plan came together fully, Giroux would probably be on the decline, without a Giroux in the system to fill his spot. 

 

This team will be a team of a bunch of good players in a few years but they wont have a superstar to take them to the next level.  They have one now and are wasting him.

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How Many Cups Won .???? 

     0)    G=zero..

       1)      Clarke= 2

          2)     Parent = 2..

   just the facts....

They should trade him and get picks back,maybe a real super star .

:ninja::

Edited by intheslot

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43 minutes ago, intheslot said:

How Many Cups Won .???? 

     0)    G=zero..

       1)      Clarke= 2

          2)     Parent = 2..

   just the facts....

They should trade him and get picks back,maybe a real super star .

:ninja::

There are many players with cups that aren't better than Giroux.  I'm sure Clarke was better in his day and there has to be a separate category for goalie.

 

I dont know if you're kidding about trading Giroux or not, but I mentioned it 3 years ago when I realized what Hextall was doing.  If he was unwilling to go for it, and he was going to sign guys like umberger, lehtera, and weise, why keep Giroux around and why extend voracek for $8.5M per year.

 

I think Hextall had good intentions, but by not going all in on a tank, he didnt make this team any better than what it was before he got here.  Sure, they stocked their system with some unknown talent, none of which I would consider to be superstars in the making, and they have some cap freedom, which doesn't do much good if you're not willing to use it, but he wasted the opportunity to really use a superstar that he already had.  He could have traded Giroux and voracek and maybe landed some top 3 talent that could become superstars at the same time provorov, koneckny, frost, and Hart start to become good players.

 

Now, they have to hope that Giroux will still be a major contributor in the next three years or so.  Maybe they'll squeeze a cup out of him before he goes on the decline.

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Somewhere near Cherry Hills, NJ, Robert Earle Clarke emerges from his cave, yelling: LINDROS!

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For me, it's Giroux and it's not even close. 

 

Lindros is 2nd. 

 

I didn't watch Clarke or Parent play because, well, I wasn't born, so I can't possibly have a comment based only on stats.

 

Giroux is the most talented and complete player I've ever watched on the Flyers. 

 

13 hours ago, elmatus said:

If it wasn't for Giroux, there would barely be any hope game in and game out.

 

If Giroux wasn't on this team, there would really be no reason to watch until someone else actually put on his big boy pants and took charge. 

 

Giroux does that. Every. Single. Game.

 

 

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Clarke and Lindros have to be #1 and #2 with Bernie in there as 1A in a special category for goalies.  For me Giroux's story is still being written so it is hard for me to place him at this time but I would say he could range anywhere from 3-6 depending on how he finishes his career with the Flyers among the mix of Bill Barber, Brian Propp and Tim Kerr who could arguably be 3-5 in some order, IMHO anyway.

 

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Sorry it might not be the popular opinion but i chose Lindros #1.

 

Big E is what made this southern boy WOKE to hockey in the 90's.

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51 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Sorry it might not be the popular opinion but i chose Lindros #1.

 

Big E is what made this southern boy WOKE to hockey in the 90's.

 

Yeah it's very close for me between G and Lindros. 

When E was healthy, he was downright dominant in a completely different way from G. 

 

Different game back then, and he was injured so much.

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4 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Yeah it's very close for me between G and Lindros. 

When E was healthy, he was downright dominant in a completely different way from G. 

 

Different game back then, and he was injured so much.

 

So Clarkie is now what, only the 3rd best Flyer?

 

REPORTED!

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1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

 

So Clarkie is now what, only the 3rd best Flyer?

 

REPORTED!

 

Clarkie is the best Flyer I've never seen. :)

 

I know I said G and no one else was even close, but then I thought about it and contradicted myself in the very next post. 

 

Who knows what I say next?!

 

BRYZGALOV. Great signing? Or Greatest Signing Ever?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

BRYZGALOV. Great signing? Or Greatest Signing Ever?

 

Lol, you are redeemed and you're sins are washed away.

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I just wanna say that lost in a thread like this is what a great playmaking center Bobby Clarke was.  Everybody knows how hard he worked, his leadership, his guts and grit. And the best face-off guy ever (I don't even think it's close to be honest).

 

But the guy could pass a puck. I've said it before and will say it again, who is the last center to have a drunk right winger score 60 goals? Don't @ me. 

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Anyone who doesn't pick Clarke as the best player Philly ever had clearly never watched him play. He had every bit as much talent as Giroux, along with a motor and will that never stopped. Not to mention EVERYBODY hated to play against him.

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2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Anyone who doesn't pick Clarke as the best player Philly ever had clearly never watched him play. He had every bit as much talent as Giroux, along with a motor and will that never stopped. Not to mention EVERYBODY hated to play against him.

It's Flyer blasphemy, but I can't pick Clarkie over Parent.

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5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Anyone who doesn't pick Clarke as the best player Philly ever had clearly never watched him play.

 

hear-hear-gif-2.gif

 

Exactly.

 

I'm not just going to put someone else number one because he is popular with others.

 

Never seen him play. So grade as incomplete.

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    • 6
      Post
      My immedate thought, upon reading the title of the thread was "I think you mean to say Bobby Clarke", but figured I would contribute via the Keltner Test. It's not the only way to do this, but it gives a framework, if nothing else.   1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played? Clarke- Commonly? No, not with guys like Orr in the league. Giroux- Same answer, but with names like Crosby.   2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best pla
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      So I mentioned it in passing in another thread, but I wanted to expand a little bit.  I started thinking about it more and looking back at what Giroux has accomplished.   Most people know the stat by now - Giroux is close to Crosby for the most points since 2011/2012.  That got me thinking.  Crosby is considered to be the best player of the past decade.  Some may say he is the best ever.  Forget about that for a second, and think about what Giroux has had to work with compared to what
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      I think at some point the closer you get to the top the more impossible comparisons like these get. So many factors come into play of course, including the style of the game in different eras, as well as linemates as you mentioned.   Still, I've seen way too many people brandishing criticisms against Giroux of late on this forum. I just can't understand it for a minute. Yeah, the team is doing poorly, but that has nothing to do with Giroux imo. He's not even in the top rung of reasons
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      Lindros - most naturally physically dominant player Clarke - greatest leader and captain Giroux - most highly skilled.   However, I still say, although I'm in the minority that the most important piece to those Cup teams was Bernie. Without him, we don't have a Stanley Cup in our entire history. I almost want to say that we could have won one of those 2 Cups without Clarke, but I won't say it. I'll type it.
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      I just wanna say that lost in a thread like this is what a great playmaking center Bobby Clarke was.  Everybody knows how hard he worked, his leadership, his guts and grit. And the best face-off guy ever (I don't even think it's close to be honest).   But the guy could pass a puck. I've said it before and will say it again, who is the last center to have a drunk right winger score 60 goals? Don't @ me. 
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      For me, it's Giroux and it's not even close.    Lindros is 2nd.    I didn't watch Clarke or Parent play because, well, I wasn't born, so I can't possibly have a comment based only on stats.   Giroux is the most talented and complete player I've ever watched on the Flyers.      If Giroux wasn't on this team, there would really be no reason to watch until someone else actually put on his big boy pants and took charge.    Giroux does that. Ev
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