Goalies... Dubnyk & Stalock

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

2 hours ago, EJ0226 said:

Here's the deal, if you didn't specify which goalie you are talking about this statement would work with Dubnyk just as well. I can't figure out why any coach would allow one guy to get worked into the ground when they goalie has already shown he is not good at handling the workload. I wonder if the coaches aren't making decisions but actually Dubnyk. Otherwise why in the world would BB say he is going to fix the workload and we are now back to the same spot we are every year with his workload. I am still not convinced the coach has the say all on this team. 
And it's not like Dubnyk and Stalock have big differences in career stats. Dubnyk has a career .916 save percentage and 2.54 Goals Against Average well Stalock has a career .910 save percentage and 2.51 Goals Against Average. They are basically even. Something is really wrong internally. I would love to be a fly on the wall in BB office and locker room to see what is really going on.

 

I am not sure I buy into this whole "inmates run the asylum" thing...I mean, I don't know for sure, as I know no one here is.... only those in the Wild locker room know for sure.
But either way, I just don't see the players making decisions like that. Bruce Boudreau is a veteran coach and has dealt with all manner of players from superstars to unknown grinders, from 15 yr vets to raw rookies....I just don't see him being "told" what to do and how to do it by any player, personally.

As for Dubnyk and Stalock, the big difference between them is, Dubnyk HAS a proven track record of being a reliable, and sometimes, elite starter...…….. Stalock has not.
Stalock was given opportunities in San Jose to run with the starter's job with little success and has shown in Minnesota that if HE is given too many starts (I.E. teams see him a lot more) he is more easily exposed than the proven Dubnyk is.

It is pretty easy to pick on things Dubnyk isn't doing well now that he is in a rut of some sort.
We still don't know what the complete issue is.... is it a mental thing with him (frustration or something else), is it the team in front of him not defending as well?  Is it the team in front of him not scoring enough?  Is it simple case of declining skill?

Could be a combination of any of those things.
But even in his prime, or really ANY goalie's prime, and even if he is a stud starter that can play 60-65 games a year, I think it does benefit a team to have a backup goalie everyone has confidence in so that the starter can really feel like he can rest.
I mean, you can give a workhorse goalie a day off physically...but is he MENTALLY resting? Again, assuming that is the problem with Dubnyk right now.

 

I just have never felt and really can't be convinced that Stalock is as "good" as Devan Dubnyk is.
I think that with a more capable backup and a more evened out workload, I think that would be helpful to him....and it would possibly give the team more confidence in the guy that is playing on the days Duby is not.

 

Also, any other goalies the Wild look for, especially if he is a young backup, should also possibly be ready to replace Dubnyk at some point. Duby is reaching the end of his contract, and if the Wild are serious about remaining competitive after his contract is up, they should start NOW looking for a replacement.... I REALLY don't want to see another Nik Backstrom situation (and I did like Backstrom as well, so it isn't a bash on him), where a past his prime goalie is given another contract and expected to continue to carry a big workload out of "loyalty".... I'd rather the team look at hard facts, look at trends and make the best possible decision for the franchise's long term competitive health.

[Antti_Laxative]

2 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

 

Dubnyk isn't the problem. The problem is the other 22 guys on the team who aren't putting the puck in the net. 

That's definitely the problem for Carey as well (As you saw last night)

[Alexandron]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Also, any other goalies the Wild look for, especially if he is a young backup, should also possibly be ready to replace Dubnyk at some point. Duby is reaching the end of his contract, and if the Wild are serious about remaining competitive after his contract is up, they should start NOW looking for a replacement.... I REALLY don't want to see another Nik Backstrom situation (and I did like Backstrom as well, so it isn't a bash on him), where a past his prime goalie is given another contract and expected to continue to carry a big workload out of "loyalty".... I'd rather the team look at hard facts, look at trends and make the best possible decision for the franchise's long term competitive health.

2

Replacement is already loudly knocking on the Wild's door - Kaapo Kahkonen ( 5 shutouts so far for the Baby Wild's history happened within a half of one season). I think a promising treasure is cooking/developing there in Iowa.

I have a question for you TropicalFruitGirl26. What number 2 means below the portion of your message? I have seen before as well number 1 in other messages too. Are those numbers mean anything?

[rottenrefs]

9 hours ago, EJ0226 said:

Here's the deal, if you didn't specify which goalie you are talking about this statement would work with Dubnyk just as well. I can't figure out why any coach would allow one guy to get worked into the ground when they goalie has already shown he is not good at handling the workload. I wonder if the coaches aren't making decisions but actually Dubnyk. Otherwise why in the world would BB say he is going to fix the workload and we are now back to the same spot we are every year with his workload. I am still not convinced the coach has the say all on this team. 
And it's not like Dubnyk and Stalock have big differences in career stats. Dubnyk has a career .916 save percentage and 2.54 Goals Against Average well Stalock has a career .910 save percentage and 2.51 Goals Against Average. They are basically even. Something is really wrong internally. I would love to be a fly on the wall in BB office and locker room to see what is really going on.

As everyone knows, often we've heard Boudreau (in interviews) state that he's asked whatever players if they're good to go (or whatever) and based on that they get the nod to return in the lineup or in Dubnyk's case get the nod to start whichever game.

[Fargocase]

8 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

Not sure why people are so upset over Dubnyk. Look at his numbers compared to other goaltenders.

 

For goaltenders starting 25 or more games (21 total goaltenders), he ranks #9 for wins with 16, tied with Carey Price, Braden Holtby, and Pekka Rinne, and ahead of Semyon Varmolov.

 

For goaltenders starting 25 or more games (21 total goaltenders), he ranks #9 in Save Percentage with 0.915, ahead of M.A Fleury, Semyon Varmalov, Braden Holtby, Connor Hellebuyck, Henrik Lundquist, and Carey Price.

 

For goaltenders starting 25 or more games (21 total goaltenders), he ranks #7 in Goals Against with 2.56, ahead of Carey Price, Connor Hellebuyck, Semyon Varmalov, Braden Holtby, and Henrik Lundquist.

 

He's posting better numbers than some of the big name goaltenders out there right now. Is he a brick wall? No. But he's a top ten goaltender.

 

Dubnyk isn't the problem. The problem is the other 22 guys on the team who aren't putting the puck in the net. 

Seems like a Hate Doobie agenda is being pushed by a couple of posters here.  Emotional vs rational.  Right now the Wild's terrible goal production means he has zero room for error.  Easy to scapegoat him.

[rottenrefs]

43 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

Seems like a Hate Doobie agenda is being pushed by a couple of posters here.  Emotional vs rational.  Right now the Wild's terrible goal production means he has zero room for error.  Easy to scapegoat him.

It's not a hate agenda against Dubnyk. The coaching staff needs to wake up and recognize Dubnyk's played their last 12 games while our backup could have rested him for a couple of those games, if for nothing else but to keep him from being rusty.

 

Oh look, Stalock looks rusty as hell. I wonder why that is?

[Fargocase]

Yeah, phuckin brutal game.  Rusty or just bad goal tending?  There's a reason Stalock was pulled off the minors scrap heap by the Wild.

 

And AGAIN, the team should be ashamed and embrace this, because it is their big time FAIL, too.  Save the back to back game excuses.

[rottenrefs]

41 minutes ago, Fargocase said:

Yeah, phuckin brutal game.  Rusty or just bad goal tending?  There's a reason Stalock was pulled off the minors scrap heap by the Wild.

 

And AGAIN, the team should be ashamed and embrace this, because it is their big time FAIL, too.  Save the back to back game excuses.

Scrap heap or not it is what it is.

The Wild didn't have to play Dubs against Ottawa or Montreal. Hindsight sure, but he could have sat last night and been fresher tonight against the stronger team (between Montreal and the Bruins.) Coaches do do this too though, playing their backup against the stronger team on a back-to-back after going 3-0 during their road trip.

[Math]

I think most of us pretty agree that Stalock should play mores games. Not because Dubnyk sucks, but just to gave him some rest and eventually prevent him from injuries. Resting is a key factor and is often neglected. There is a large fraction of injuries that are caused, or at least aggravated by fatigue and/or a lack of resting.

 

Anyway, it's a hard problematic. So far, Dubnyk lead the Wild to get the 2 points in Ottawa and Montréal (probably also in Toronto, but I didn't watch the game), so we all look smarter after. Putting Dubnyk in front of the net in Boston would have made also sense because he has been solid in the past and is on a good streak. And then comes the All Star Game break (Yes, he's supposed to go there but for goalies it's mainly to make act of presence. Like for Price, I would have declined the invitation to focus on the Wild as we are right in the middle of the playoffs hunt).

[EJ0226]

14 hours ago, Fargocase said:

Seems like a Hate Doobie agenda is being pushed by a couple of posters here.  Emotional vs rational.  Right now the Wild's terrible goal production means he has zero room for error.  Easy to scapegoat him.

Not hate agenda for him but hate agenda for riding him into the ground so if they do make it to the playoffs he is exhausted and not going to look good. On top of it the back up just sits and rusts for a good 3 weeks if not longer. It does nobody any good and rust does happen from not playing any games. Take any player and have them sit for 2 to 3 weeks with only practice and you will see rust.

 

I also think it's foolish of BB if he does in fact just base his decision on if a guy will actually say he isn't ready. These guys are pro and very few if any will ever say they are not good to go. You got to rest them once and awhile and give the back up a few games every few weeks to keep your starter fresh. Look at those guys they started Dubs and within the first 10 minutes he is pulled cause he is playing so poorly. If it's true he asked Dubnyk if he was good to go then that is a huge error on a veteran coach.

[EJ0226]

10 minutes ago, Villette/Lavaux said:

I think most of us pretty agree that Stalock should play mores games. Not because Dubnyk sucks, but just to gave him some rest and eventually prevent him from injuries. Resting is a key factor and is often neglected. There is a large fraction of injuries that are caused, or at least aggravated by fatigue and/or a lack of resting.

 

Anyway, it's a hard problematic. So far, Dubnyk lead the Wild to get the 2 points in Ottawa and Montréal (probably also in Toronto, but I didn't watch the game), so we all look smarter after. Putting Dubnyk in front of the net in Boston would have made also sense because he has been solid in the past and is on a good streak. And then comes the All Star Game break (Yes, he's supposed to go there but for goalies it's mainly to make act of presence. Like for Price, I would have declined the invitation to focus on the Wild as we are right in the middle of the playoffs hunt).

I honestly think the Wild would be smart to give Dubs a little bonus, tell him to skip the ASG and take the suspension to allow him to rest up versus sending him.  Extra rest never hurts and you got big names choosing to do that instead of having to still play a "game".

[ClusterChuck]

3 hours ago, EJ0226 said:

Not hate agenda for him but hate agenda for riding him into the ground so if they do make it to the playoffs he is exhausted and not going to look good. On top of it the back up just sits and rusts for a good 3 weeks if not longer. It does nobody any good and rust does happen from not playing any games. Take any player and have them sit for 2 to 3 weeks with only practice and you will see rust.

 

I also think it's foolish of BB if he does in fact just base his decision on if a guy will actually say he isn't ready. These guys are pro and very few if any will ever say they are not good to go. You got to rest them once and awhile and give the back up a few games every few weeks to keep your starter fresh. Look at those guys they started Dubs and within the first 10 minutes he is pulled cause he is playing so poorly. If it's true he asked Dubnyk if he was good to go then that is a huge error on a veteran coach.

Dubnyk has stated he wants to start every game. Great. Not realistic in today's game tho. Gives BB an easy choice.

I have to think Stalock is just being a team player and is accepting his role and will try to be ready when called. Not fair for him to sit and then gain any confidence in the coaching staff. I haven't heard a peep on him wanting to fight for the #1 status. Does he know that he won't get that chance here and is being quiet? Unlike Kuemper.

 

I would be more concerned about Dubnyk if were were losing many games 6-4, 7-5 and so on if We were scoring 3-4 goals a game.

Granted more often than not in any given game, Dubnyk will give up a 'softie' and have a unfortunate deflection go in and that's ok except we rarely have an answer and more pressure is put on the goalies.

 

It's tough to say what needs to be done overall until we see what (or if) Fenton does by trade deadline.

[EJ0226]

20 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

Dubnyk has stated he wants to start every game. Great. Not realistic in today's game tho. Gives BB an easy choice.

I have to think Stalock is just being a team player and is accepting his role and will try to be ready when called. Not fair for him to sit and then gain any confidence in the coaching staff. I haven't heard a peep on him wanting to fight for the #1 status. Does he know that he won't get that chance here and is being quiet? Unlike Kuemper.

 

I would be more concerned about Dubnyk if were were losing many games 6-4, 7-5 and so on if We were scoring 3-4 goals a game.

Granted more often than not in any given game, Dubnyk will give up a 'softie' and have a unfortunate deflection go in and that's ok except we rarely have an answer and more pressure is put on the goalies.

 

It's tough to say what needs to be done overall until we see what (or if) Fenton does by trade deadline.

I still think they need to give Dubnyk more rest. Most pros in all sports will never say they are tired and want to play every game. That is a great attitude but in sports like hockey in a goalie position that just isn't possible. And the team has seen that we just can't ride him as much as we do if we want a realistic chance in the playoffs. It will help too for Stalock to get more time in case a injury does happen to Dubnyk. But for sure the rest of the team is a huge mess. I feel this team is more of a seller then buyer. Sadly I don't think we get much in return for most of the guys we could trade. Realistically, Granlund and Staal are probably the only two players we could get something back in value. Zucker has completely played the Wild with getting that contract and completely disappearing. Coyle and Nino are basically worthless. Parise would for sure get some hits but we can't move him at all. Dumba would be the only other player that would get interest but he's hurt and do we really want to move him anyways? I can't see us moving Granlund either. Way to valuable player to the team to move. I think Fenton is in a bad spot and I feel for him. Fletcher left a burning dumpster fire to him. I hold zero responsibility to him this year if we just fall to the bottom. In fact I don't think it's fair to really judge him in the next 3 years. He's got a mess he needs to clean up in order to get his idea going. You can only judge him if he does a bone headed trade or signing but the overall of the team isn't his  yet. Give a few years then we can for sure judge his game plan.

[IllaZilla]

Last six starts for Dubnyk:

5-1

2.01 GAA

.936 SV%

[ClusterChuck]

4 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

Last six starts for Dubnyk:

5-1

2.01 GAA

.936 SV%

Goalie comparison with Dubnyk and Hellebuyck prior to last game .

 Hellebuyck (19-12-1)  2.86GAA  .909%SP

 Dubnyk (16-14-3)  2.56GAA  .915%SP  

Jets on doorstep for 1st while we're trying for a PO spot.

Not a goalie problem here in the state of Hockey.

(*Not saying we're perfectly fine in that dept, Just not the issue currently)

 

[IllaZilla]

2 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

Goalie comparison with Dubnyk and Hellebuyck prior to last game .

 Hellebuyck (19-12-1)  2.86GAA  .909%SP

 Dubnyk (16-14-3)  2.56GAA  .915%SP  

Jets on doorstep for 1st while we're trying for a PO spot.

Not a goalie problem here in the state of Hockey.

(*Not saying we're perfectly fine in that dept, Just not the issue currently)

 

 

Over that same time period Winnipeg average 3.45 G/GP while the Wild averaged under 3 (2.83 G/GP). Because the Wild aren't scoring it allows for almost no error on the part of the goaltender...the Jets have scored 147 goals this year (8th overall) and the Wild have scored 122 (22nd). Give the goalie some support with goals and he can have an pretty good record. Can you imagine what the Wild record would be with Hellebuyck in nets?

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Well, I had said way early in this thread I would have liked to have seen the Wild possibly go after pending UFA Pittsburgh goalie Casey DeSmith to backup Dubnyk (I like DeSmith's game MUCH better than Stalock's), to provide Duby with real rest, AND to even push him for the starting job (face it, Stalock won't ever push Duby as the starter).

He is only 27, but alas....the Pens were smart...VERY smart....and re-upped him just a bit ago to stay in Pittsburgh for another 3 years at a nice team friendly $1.25M cap hit per.

Oh well....can always look at a guy like Keith Kinkaid of New Jersey?
Casey DeSmith was the more desirable goalie....and I think Pittsburgh knew he would have no trouble finding a new home and just locked him up for another set of seasons, even though Matt Murray is still considered the main guy over there.

[IllaZilla]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Well, I had said way early in this thread I would have liked to have seen the Wild possibly go after pending UFA Pittsburgh goalie Casey DeSmith to backup Dubnyk (I like DeSmith's game MUCH better than Stalock's), to provide Duby with real rest, AND to even push him for the starting job (face it, Stalock won't ever push Duby as the starter).

He is only 27, but alas....the Pens were smart...VERY smart....and re-upped him just a bit ago to stay in Pittsburgh for another 3 years at a nice team friendly $1.25M cap hit per.

Oh well....can always look at a guy like Keith Kinkaid of New Jersey?
Casey DeSmith was the more desirable goalie....and I think Pittsburgh knew he would have no trouble finding a new home and just locked him up for another set of seasons, even though Matt Murray is still considered the main guy over there.

I have a feeling if that Finnlander in Iowa keeps putting up numbers, Fenton won’t look for a UFA goaltender. They’ll just hand that Finnlander the backup spot next season. Give him a season as the backup and then have him split time in the 20-21 season with Dubnyk. Hand him the reins full time in 21-22. 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

22 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

I have a feeling if that Finnlander in Iowa keeps putting up numbers, Fenton won’t look for a UFA goaltender. They’ll just hand that Finnlander the backup spot next season. Give him a season as the backup and then have him split time in the 20-21 season with Dubnyk. Hand him the reins full time in 21-22. 

 

Sounds like a plan....and I certainly hope it works that way.
I just understand goalies are a wonky bunch to try and evaluate, and even with the best ones, you just NEVER know if they will be good for the long haul or not.

It really does feel like it is always trial n error with these guys, even vets, but especially young up n comers....until a goalie actually establishes a solid NHL track record...and even THEN, as we have seen with guys like Cory Schneider...he can just completely fall off the competitive cliff!!

Doesn't matter now with DeSmith, because he is now re-signed, but at least with him, you ARE getting a known quantity, and no one is saying he would have been Dubnyk's "heir", but he certainly was still young enough that even if the Wild wanted to hand the reigns over to some even younger goalie in their system, DeSmith could have been a super stop gap if for some reason Dubnyk fails as he ages over the next couple seasons.....and like I said before too, DeSmith plays much better than Stalock to the point where Dubnyk will HAVE to be at his best every time out in order to stave him off....unlike Stalock where it is pretty much a given Dubnyk will have the starter's job no matter what...as evidenced by how much they run him out there now.

But anyways, yea, the DeSmith ship has sailed, I know Minny has a promising netminder, but I still feel they should get some kind of insurance in the form of at least a reasonably young, reasonably capable backup with NHL legs to replace Stalock….and not have to spend a fortune doing it.

[IllaZilla]

2 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Sounds like a plan....and I certainly hope it works that way.
I just understand goalies are a wonky bunch to try and evaluate, and even with the best ones, you just NEVER know if they will be good for the long haul or not.

It really does feel like it is always trial n error with these guys, even vets, but especially young up n comers....until a goalie actually establishes a solid NHL track record...and even THEN, as we have seen with guys like Cory Schneider...he can just completely fall off the competitive cliff!!

Doesn't matter now with DeSmith, because he is now re-signed, but at least with him, you ARE getting a known quantity, and no one is saying he would have been Dubnyk's "heir", but he certainly was still young enough that even if the Wild wanted to hand the reigns over to some even younger goalie in their system, DeSmith could have been a super stop gap if for some reason Dubnyk fails as he ages over the next couple seasons.....and like I said before too, DeSmith plays much better than Stalock to the point where Dubnyk will HAVE to be at his best every time out in order to stave him off....unlike Stalock where it is pretty much a given Dubnyk will have the starter's job no matter what...as evidenced by how much they run him out there now.

But anyways, yea, the DeSmith ship has sailed, I know Minny has a promising netminder, but I still feel they should get some kind of insurance in the form of at least a reasonably young, reasonably capable backup with NHL legs to replace Stalock….and not have to spend a fortune doing it.

I don’t think they’ll have to spend a ton on Kahkonen. The big lynch pin is the offense. Every single year the offense goes in the tank around the Holidays. This more or less forces the coach to overplay Dubnyk to stay in the Playoff hunt.

Part of the problem is the owner. He wants to win a Cup. Now. So in order to get into the Playoffs, you need to play the goaltender that will give you the best chance of making it into the Playoffs. And that ain’t Stalock. So the coach is under pressure to get into the Playoffs. If the offense isn’t scoring, you have to play the goaltender that will allow the least amount of goals. Again, that ain’t Stalock. If the offense could keep scoring on a regular basis, it probably would allow the coach to play the backup more. But because the offense goes in the tank every Holiday season it forces the coach to overplay Dubnyk, because the owner wants to be into the Playoffs in order to get a Cup. It’s a vicious cycle that won’t stop until the owner recognizes that he doesn’t have a great team. He’s got a good team, but not a great team. 

[rottenrefs]

3 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

I don’t think they’ll have to spend a ton on Kahkonen. The big lynch pin is the offense. Every single year the offense goes in the tank around the Holidays. This more or less forces the coach to overplay Dubnyk to stay in the Playoff hunt.

Part of the problem is the owner. He wants to win a Cup. Now. So in order to get into the Playoffs, you need to play the goaltender that will give you the best chance of making it into the Playoffs. And that ain’t Stalock. So the coach is under pressure to get into the Playoffs. If the offense isn’t scoring, you have to play the goaltender that will allow the least amount of goals. Again, that ain’t Stalock. If the offense could keep scoring on a regular basis, it probably would allow the coach to play the backup more. But because the offense goes in the tank every Holiday season it forces the coach to overplay Dubnyk, because the owner wants to be into the Playoffs in order to get a Cup. It’s a vicious cycle that won’t stop until the owner recognizes that he doesn’t have a great team. He’s got a good team, but not a great team. 

^ And that right there is why fans who say Boudreau can't win in the playoffs don't understand the nuances of why his chances have been limited and not just with the Wild. I firmly believe if every player got behind him and the upper management staff were to give him free reign we'd see slightly different results. The chip some of the Wild players have is on the wrong shoulder (so to speak.) They need to put their suits and sweaters that millionaires make in the closet and act like full blown, hungry hockey players.

[Lonkkis]

Interesting read, especially the part of Cup-winning goalies average about 46 games starts during regular season.

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/unmasked-ideal-workload-for-starting-goalie-on-playoff-bound-teams/c-303785014?tid=278388320

[Alexandron]

47 minutes ago, Lonkkis said:

Interesting read, especially the part of Cup-winning goalies average about 46 games starts during regular season.

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/unmasked-ideal-workload-for-starting-goalie-on-playoff-bound-teams/c-303785014?tid=278388320

Thanks, Lonkkis. It is a perfect article to think more about goalies workload for the regular and playoffs seasons. It mentioned us too.

[Alexandron]

I agree Rotty- what is holding them to put more goals into the opposite net? They make plenty of money that I even not dreamed for me and for my family in my entire life. My single answer to myself is the lack of TEAM'S talent as well as the lack of the consistent hard Team's work for years during a 60 min.per game (including goalies too with their evident zest softies time to time). Maybe tons of money developing a barrier for their body language (I mean changing mentality to play focused, smart and hard every game)? For the high paid professionals should not be a term - they were tired from a previous game. They play about 6 months a year and multiple times a not every day.

     Why did we take this season so many old-ish less talented players and spent money on them? Instead of taking just one, but really superb talent capable to put at least 35-45 goals per season practically every year? Why did we draft this year from Sweden a 1st round pick a player that, I think, is invisible, and is nowhere? Do we have a chance to get a Cup this season? Not sure.   All season along we (our fans) are talking about 2 key parts of the team ( exhausted and rusted goaltenders) and about the toothless offense this season. I even not saying about a special fan's attention to OUR NINO, who finally lost his wisdom tooth.

[ClusterChuck]

10 hours ago, rottenrefs said:

They need to put their suits and sweaters that millionaires make in the closet and act like full blown, hungry hockey players.

There's 2 types of players now. The one's who haven't (and may never) sign 'The Big One', Are the old school hungry. Not saying contracts like Parise/Suter but the comfortable let's say 5M per 5 years.

My question and or concern between the 'haves' and 'have not' is what are they hungry for these days?

Every player wants to raise the Cup of course. Have that moment. But I feel now the Hunger is for the payday (rightfully so providing for your family etc) more so than a Championship.

Just look at player's stats right after signing the Big one. Usually a drop off. =Comfortable.

Back when there was realistic salaries, Players fought for their jobs and fought even harder for the Cup.