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It's Time for the Retrofit


Howie58

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25 minutes ago, brelic said:

I know the Flyers' problems run deep, but in all honesty, I think everyone including Hextall knew what the faults were, and nothing was done to address them in the offseason.

 

Goaltending.

3rd line center.

Penalty killing.

 

None of our goalies could remain healthy, let alone stop a beach ball.

Vorobyev was not ready (or the experiment was cut short by Hak).

Lappy was still here, no personnel changed, and the results were predictably the same.

 

This is where I was yesterday, because realistically this is the same group that accumulated 96 points last year and seemed poised to make a next step with the addition of a scoring winger. (JvR)

Our areas of concern were not addressed and as you said, I can see where Hextall didn't see a "clear" upgrade over the potential he saw from Vorobyev, so he went with it...and for whatever reason Misha was not allowed to work through his issues in the bigs.

 

I wanted a top pairing defenseman to make our group more formidable, and help to mentor the young guys.  I like the butcher but he's not Duncan Keith you know ? Not that DK was available but a guy of that ilk with a few years of playing at a high level in the tank who could produce now and be a solid bottom pairing PK guy as he aged. I still think this helps this team immediately. 

 

Truly the group is confounding. I also remember the Kings took a step forward and were everyone's darlings for a season, then they had an awful year or maybe two before they became the "Kings" of the mid 10s. I wonder if that's where this team is ? 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, sekkes85 said:

At least we are good at winning faceoffs?  You would think with the best FO% in the league we would have much better puck possession which would lead to scoring chances.  NOPE, not with this team!

 

Yeah, it's weird. Imagine how bad we'd be if we lost most of those faceoffs!

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9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I also remember the Kings took a step forward and were everyone's darlings for a season, then they had an awful year or maybe two before they became the "Kings" of the mid 10s

 

Kings missed the playoff four years after the lockout, then lost in the first round two seasons. Then made The Trades and won the Cup, went to the Conference Final, and won the Cup.

 

Then the wheels fell off.

 

10 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

realistically this is the same group that accumulated 96 points last year and seemed poised to make a next step with the addition of a scoring winger. (JvR)

 

Maybe didn't help that the "scoring winger" was put on the third line with a first-time NHL center and a recovering-from-injury Simmonds? Also, too, there was no obvious "fix" to the goaltending on offer last offseason. None. Zero. Zilch.

 

More accurately, the team is the same middling bunch that's been taking up ice time at the Big Bank Building for the past six years.

 

That isn't at all "at" you, mojo, but I really think this "team" is overvalued. I do believe they have more "talent" than they are showing, but I don't see all these pieces fitting together.

 

There's no "there" there. Goes back to the Island of Misfit Toys moniker.

 

They've been "re-tooling" this "core" for six years and we are where we are. The facts of the matter are that this "core" simply isn't as good as the other "cores" in the Metro and the East (to say nothing of the West).

 

I mean, it's great that Giroux is fifth in the league in points over the past six years (16th in points per game), and all, but Crosby, Kane, and Ovechkin (all above him) have Cups to their resume. The "other guy" is Jamie Benn who is apparently pulling his own "productive but disappointing" act in Dallas.

 

Take a real, honest, solid look at the competition in the East and tell me you think that Giroux/Voracek/JVR (or Couturier, or whoever) can compete with Tampa (Stamkos/Kucherov/Point), Washington (Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov), or Pittsburgh (Crosby/Malkin/Kessel). And we're not even getting to Toronto (Matthews/Marner/Tavares) or (*gasp*) Buffalo (Eichel/Skinner/Reinhart) much less "rebuilding" teams like the Rags and Isles who are above them in the standings.

 

I just don't see it. And I don't see it today because the past six years have given me no real reason to believe that they can.

 

Because they haven't. And the organization just went all "win now" with them and got a dozen freshly laid eggs for the effort.

 

Happy - THRILLED - to be proven wrong.

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21 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

I am not bashing Giroux, he's a great player. Timing is everything, his in Philly has not been great and that is not on him. When he came to Philly the team was deep in leadership. Richards, Briere, Hartnell, Pronger, Timonen were all here for the 2010 cup run. He has had access to THE captain, Bobby Clarke. Unfortunately, your worth as a leader cannot be measured without a band of brothers following you into battle. That is also not on G28. Having said that, there is no need for anyone to pity him. He has made millions of dollars playing  a game he loves. 

IMO, he is the single greatest asset Fletcher has moving forward. The reality is he will be on the decline when this team is a legitimate cup contender, if that ever happens. If G28 wants to win a cup IMPO it will have better odds happening somewhere else. With all that said it would be best to trade him now while his value is optimal, rather than wait for his value to diminish.

 

 

 Why not mention 2011-12 when he went head to head vs Sid and ate him alive? was he not a leader that year? is it his fault(injury) they lost in the second round after he scored 17 points in 10 games and 2 short handed goals? 

 That series he had against pittsburg is one of the best series any player has ever had. He had 14 points in SIX games. 

 The best thing they can do with Giroux is to play him until his contract expires and find him a center and winger.

 All this talk of "moving him to the wing" is not a surprise to people who followed him since he was drafted because he was drafted as a winger. Thats his position, the flyers moved him. Remember what he said when they moved him and everyone talked about it as if it was a stroke of genius

“That’s funny because I was pretty much a winger all my life,”

Everyone who plays with the guy gets better, even raffl scored 21 goals with him. They move guys up, they do well, they move them away and everyone wonders why they regressed.

 Giroux has been on the team for 10 years more or less. He is still 30. I can remember everyone saying exactly this same stuff about steve Yzerman. Remember? the wings had to trade him, he was no leader, he couldnt win, they couldnt win with him, get what you can for him while you can, he just doesnt fit with the style etc, every excuse.

 What did detroit do? they kept him and built a better team around him and 14 years after joining the team he won a conn smythe, a few cups and was suddenly the greatest leader in the game at that time.

 You just cant give up on guys like giroux because you will be waiting a long time for the next one. Build around him, dont create a hole you cant fill.

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2 minutes ago, csummers said:

You just cant give up on guys like giroux because you will be waiting a long time for the next one. Build around him, dont create a hole you cant fill.

 

This.

 

I just don't think trading Giroux gets you a better player. Giroux will be the best player in any trade.

 

And you cannot win a Cup without a player of Giroux's caliber. 

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29 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Detroit won pre salary cap with 10 HOF players in the lineup. Crosby has 3 cups. Next.

 

  Then lets go post salary cap.

 Washington fans said the same thing about Ovi. Remember, they missed the playoffs in 2014. He was a cap for 13 years before winning a cup. I know caps fans,, they said it,  i read the comments, "they wont win so long as they have ovi", "he is no playoff guy", "he disappears when it matters most", "get what you can for him while you can", "he is all about himself", "regular season star, playoff dud"

 They didnt do that though, because they didnt listen to fans. They knew they had a great player and the best thing they could do was to let him keep playing. And now they have a cup instead of some prospects and being mired in the middle of a rebuild which is what a lot of people called for just 3 years earlier..

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23 minutes ago, brelic said:

And you cannot win a Cup without a player of Giroux's caliber

 

Vancouver had two in the Sedins and won none. Philadelphia had Lindros. There are other examples.

 

Meaning that "having" a player like that doesn't mean you win a Cup.

 

If we're at the point where they are not going to seriously compete in the next 3-5 years, what's the point in standing

pat?

 

The point being if there's a trade to ve made that makes the team better long term and involves Giroux, you have to seriously consider it.

 

I don't know what that looks like, but it's not inconceivable.

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1 hour ago, sekkes85 said:

At least we are good at winning faceoffs?  You would think with the best FO% in the league we would have much better puck possession which would lead to scoring chances.  NOPE, not with this team!

 

That's because we give the puck up as soon as we win said faceoffs!

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3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Vancouver had two in the Sedins and won none. Philadelphia had Lindros. There are other examples.

 

Meaning that "having" a player like that doesn't mean you win a Cup.

 

If we're at the point where they are not going to seriously compete in the next 3-5 years, what's the point in standing

pat?

 

The point being if there's a trade to ve made that makes the team better long term and involves Giroux, you have to seriously consider it.

 

I don't know what that looks like, but it's not inconceivable.

 

 think either of those teams make it without those players? they lost in the finals. Bergeron, Thomas, Fedorov and Vernon got paid to play too. 

 Giroux is under contract for 3 years after this one. There is no trade return that will help the flyers as much as just playing him for that time will. Draft choices are no guarantees as we can see from frost and patrick who its gonna take time with. You want them to develop with a new crop of young players and draft choices? Frost in in junior still, Patrick has two seasons of NHL almost under his belt but I keep hearing how frost is going to be better. How well would patrick be doing in the OHL right now? One is an NHL player, one is not but might be and that right there is about what you can expect in a giroux trade. A high draft choice, a couple lower ones and a slug or two and the odds any of them are better than just playing giroux for 4 years is slim to none.. 

 I dont like the odds in trading giroux for prospects or draft choices and NOBODY is going to give you a better, younger, cheaper player for him.

 Flyer fans, or maybe fans of all teams I should say, over value draft choices and prospects and under value what they already have any time they are losing. 

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3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

can't imagine a scenario where this group makes the playoffs, I would like to see the rest of the season get devoted to, finding out if NAK, Meyers, Vorobyev can play in the NHL, proper development of Carter Hart, whatever that looks like, splitting time here or playing every night in Allentown. I don't need to see Dale Weiss or Jordan Weal anymore, nor Andrew MacDonald.  Time to see what these young guys can do.

 

Absolutely totally agree!!

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1 hour ago, brelic said:

I just don't think trading Giroux gets you a better player. Giroux will be the best player in any trade.

 

Agree he will probably be the best player in the trade.  But he can be traded for multiple players and/or picks.   So assuming the value is fair on both sides..... just spit-balling here:  Giroux for a top 6 shoot first winger and 2 firsts.   

 

While one player doesn't equal Giroux this year.  In 3 years, when the Flyers hopefully have a team that can make the playoffs, those 2 firsts and possibly that winger are out producing a 33 year old Giroux.  

 

Honestly I'm not deadset that Giroux needs to be traded.  I'm just exploring the options and I think Fletch needs to look at everyone.

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47 minutes ago, csummers said:

There is no trade return that will help the flyers as much as just playing him for that time will.

 

My point is that if the team is going to be a so-so, mediocre squad through the end of his contract, then keeping him really does nothing for the organization, either.  If - again, if - one is of the opinion that this team isn't going to compete for the next three years, then keeping Giroux instead of getting a potential return that could benefit the team for 5-10 years doesn't help the Flyers achieve the ultimate goal.

 

You point is well-taken, however, as I have been a vocal critic of the "winning the trades" concept with Crater and Richards - even though they probably did "win" from an asset standpoint.  Simmonds, Couturier, Voracek, Schenn were solid assets to acquire but didn't pan out to team success over time. Schenn even then gets you Frost and Farabee. Would it have been "better" to keep Schenn for the duration of his contract rather than pick up Frost and Farabee?

 

Difference being that Crater and Richards had just been to a Cup Final and came from a history of playoff appearances. This squad doesn't have that. Three rounds in six, going on seven, seasons isn't "success" no matter how productive a good player on a bad team is

 

I'm not at all running him out of town, but I do think a Top 5-10 pick (Couturier) and a solid player/prospect (Simmonds/Schenn/Voracek) isn't a bad place to start a discussion.

 

Is it a risk? Sure is. And no one knows that better than the team that "won the trades" eight years ago.

 

But if - again, if - the team isn't going to make a deep run or two into the playoffs in the next three years, it's a risk worth taking for the right return.

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2 hours ago, csummers said:

All this talk of "moving him to the wing" is not a surprise to people who followed him since he was drafted because he was drafted as a winger. Thats his position, the flyers moved him. Remember what he said when they moved him and everyone talked about it as if it was a stroke of genius

 

I noted he had never played center before at the time and harped on it consistently even as the team and their paid commentators called him a "natural center" incessantly.

 

I've also said before, and many can back me up, that he was better off on the wing and wearing an A than he ever was as a C with the C.

 

Never been captain? Never been a center? Here - be a center and we'll make you captain for the first time in the NHL.

 

Amazing that didn't work out?

 

Hardly.

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1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Vancouver had two in the Sedins and won none. Philadelphia had Lindros. There are other examples.

 

Absolutely. Thornton has never won a Cup and is considered by many as a guy who doesn't elevate his game in the playoffs. 

 

There are a lot of star players who don't have Cups. Giroux is just one of them.

 

But you'd be hard pressed to find a Cup winner - let alone true Cup contender - without at least one elite-level talent (I put Giroux in that category) and a few other elite or very-close-to-elite players, and a great surrounding cast that competes hard as a team. 

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Meaning that "having" a player like that doesn't mean you win a Cup.

 

Exactly. But I do believe it is a prerequisite. 

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

If we're at the point where they are not going to seriously compete in the next 3-5 years, what's the point in standing

pat?

 

The point being if there's a trade to ve made that makes the team better long term and involves Giroux, you have to seriously consider it.

 

I don't know what that looks like, but it's not inconceivable.

 

I agree in a sense - I did mention that I would trade Giroux for the 1st overall. That's pretty much my floor if I were GM. 

 

I guess my real issue with trading Giroux is that you need a plan to replace him. Not his production right away, per se. But an elite level athlete in the making. We don't have one. And the only way I see to really get one is 'tanking' or getting lucky in the lottery.

 

Luckily, this might be the only season for a long time where, if the Sens win the lottery, Colorado *might* be willing to trade the 1st overall for Giroux in some sort of package.  That I could get on board with. 

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33 minutes ago, Digityman said:

Honestly I'm not deadset that Giroux needs to be traded.  I'm just exploring the options and I think Fletch needs to look at everyone.

 

And that is my thought process too!  Hence the reason I posted what I posted ......  I don't think anyone here really wants to see Giroux traded, but if it is to make this team better in 3 years then it has to be dutifully considered by Fletch and company.

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33 minutes ago, Digityman said:

those 2 firsts and possibly that winger are out producing a 33 year old Giroux. 

 

It's not just about production the way I see it. It is having an elite level talent in the organization. Yes, Giroux will decline from that level. 

 

But, truthfully, we don't have a replacement. Patrick? He was never touted as that kind of player but I'd say he has the best chance at reaching that level because of his draft position. Frost could be another Giroux late-round steal.

 

Other than that, magic beans.

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16 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

My point is that if the team is going to be a so-so, mediocre squad through the end of his contract, then keeping him really does nothing for the organization, either.  If - again, if - one is of the opinion that this team isn't going to compete for the next three years, then keeping Giroux instead of getting a potential return that could benefit the team for 5-10 years doesn't help the Flyers achieve the ultimate goal.

 

You point is well-taken, however, as I have been a vocal critic of the "winning the trades" concept with Crater and Richards - even though they probably did "win" from an asset standpoint.  Simmonds, Couturier, Voracek, Schenn were solid assets to acquire but didn't pan out to team success over time. Schenn even then gets you Frost and Farabee. Would it have been "better" to keep Schenn for the duration of his contract rather than pick up Frost and Farabee?

 

Difference being that Crater and Richards had just been to a Cup Final and came from a history of playoff appearances. This squad doesn't have that. Three rounds in six, going on seven, seasons isn't "success" no matter how productive a good player on a bad team is

 

I'm not at all running him out of town, but I do think a Top 5-10 pick (Couturier) and a solid player/prospect (Simmonds/Schenn/Voracek) isn't a bad place to start a discussion.

 

Is it a risk? Sure is. And no one knows that better than the team that "won the trades" eight years ago.

 

But if - again, if - the team isn't going to make a deep run or two into the playoffs in the next three years, it's a risk worth taking for the right return.

 

 

 I should hope they listen to everything. If a deal knocks their socks off I expect them take a serious look at it.  The kind of deal is a couple first round picks.......But remember, flyers just had two first round picks and one is still in junior and the other has played two years in nhl and so far nobody really knows what he will amount to(I think he will be a good player). And its a lottery too so unless you get an after the lottery offer for 1st overall its a crap shoot. Even first over all means little a lot of years. Giroux was drafted 22nd, right after rangers took Bobby Sanguinetti who is an AHL player for Charlotte. Crap shoot.

 

 And nobody is gonna take giroux off your hands without you taking a piece of crap off their hands for a few years which kinda defeats the purpose. If you get a decent return for giroux but it saddles you with someone lehtera or umberger for 3 or 4 years you wont be winning much. And good luck developing those young players when you stink and no longer have your best player.

 

 They got a good return for carter and richards but none of them are equal to Giroux. One is already gone and another is likely soon to be gone while people want rid of the other guy. So you end up with Couts who is a star so long as he centers giroux. Watch couts numbers drop the minute G is moved till people are calling for them to trade couts.

 

 I think giroux is good enough and young enough to have a few decent playoff runs. Or the flyers can trade him and they will probably watch him lift the cup elsewhere while we count the prospects on here trying to decide what the flyers can get for the guy they traded giroux for. Right now he has 14 more points than the nearest flyer to him at 30 years old with three more years coming. You can trade that if you want but you might as well play him and fix everything else.

 

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21 minutes ago, csummers said:

And nobody is gonna take giroux off your hands without you taking a piece of crap off their hands for a few years

 

I don't think that's a "necessity." To move a Schenn? Probably had to take a Lehterrible to get the two firsts. To get the #5 overall point scorer over the past 6 years (or even the 16th overall point per game guy)? I think he's got value in and of himself that won't require taking garbage back.

 

And, if you are offered that deal, you can always turn it down.

 

The real fly in the ointment is Giroux's NMC, which makes a lot of this discussion moot from the jump.

 

20 minutes ago, csummers said:

I think giroux is good enough and young enough to have a few decent playoff runs.

 

I don't at all dispute that. The only real question here is whether he will have that chance in Philadelphia. Will The Flyers be good enough for Giroux to make those runs (because he won't do it all by himself - nobody does).

 

I certainly HOPE he does. But I've been HOPING that for six years. There is a point at which one has to fish rather than cut bait.

 

Might be time to start fishing. YMMV.

 

From where I sit, in the "new NHL" you've got to hope/expect that some of the draft pick "magic beans" turn into beanstalks that grow to the sky. That is, in fact, what Giroux (#22 overall) turned into - prossibly the best 22nd overall pick... ever?

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6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Could the Flyers luck into a similar situation where , a couple of guys get traded, the team drafts Jack Hughes, the young group of Hughes/Kakko, Farrabee, O'Brien, Patrick, Koneckny, Provorov Meyers and Sanhiem usher in a long window of serious contention when if things break their way they win some titles ?

 

Yes they have some good pieces still if they trade Simmer and Jake.

 

Hell they are at the bottom of the barrel now WITH them so I am will to try it without them.

 

Addition by subtraction.

 

I don't know if it will work.

 

But if you can get a Mark Stone (for Jake) in one of the holes and some of the kids can play the other one maybe.

 

It isn't like Simmer is lighting it up anymore hey who knows.

 

Purge what you can now. 

 

Then Lose for Hughes!

:beer:

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I really want a good prospect out of the draft but i really hate this mock draft...yet wouldn't it be the Flyers luck to get f**ked like this??

 

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2019/

 

Skip To Round:  1  •  2  •  3  •  4  •  5  •  6  •  7
1 Los Angeles logo Los Angeles Jack Hughes C USNTDP (USHL) 5' 10" 152
2 Chicago logo Chicago Kaapo Kakko RW TPS Turku (SM-liiga) 6' 1.25" 187
3 Philadelphia logo Philadelphia Dylan Cozens C Lethbridge(WHL) 6' 2.5"

174

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