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Howie58

It's Time for the Retrofit

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What i hope doesn't happen is a trade of Giroux and "something" for Charlie Coyle, Mikka Koivu and Ryan Suter's contract.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The extra factor here is Giroux's NMC. He's going to have to want to go where he ends up if he is traded

Yeah, that's why I kind of thought Ottawa. 

 

I mean, if we're not getting the value we want, we don't HAVE to trade him. 

 

But if I can get Stone/Duchene, Anderson, and two firsts or some prospect (or Tkachuk!) in lieu of Anderson. 

 

My thing is I don't know why Ottawa would give up those picks or Tkachuk. And they don't have their first rounder this year in any case

Edited by ruxpin
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3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

What i hope doesn't happen is a trade of Giroux and "something" for Charlie Coyle, Mikka Koivu and Ryan Suter's contract.

 

 

That nauseated me. 

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5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

What i hope doesn't happen is a trade of Giroux and "something" for Charlie Coyle, Mikka Koivu and Ryan Suter's contract.

 

Jan Hlavc, Kim Johnsson, Pavel Brendl, and a Third?

 

image.png

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3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

That nauseated me. 

 

It's also exactly Fletchers M.O.

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Posted (edited)

I think Anton Stralman is a nice vet for the blueline the Flyers can try and pursue for help with all these kids.

 

He is a UFA this summer just wait till then to talk to him. He may prefer to play for a team who is closer.

 

Guess we would see.

 

He will be 33 at the start of the season and can still play and be effective. I would also like to jettison Mcdud finally with a buy out and replace him as the vet with Stralman who is also a right shot.

 

 

Edited by OccamsRazor

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

Yeah, that's why I kind of thought Ottawa. 

 

I mean, if we're not getting the value we want, we don't HAVE to trade him. 

 

But if I can get Stone/Duchene, Anderson, and two firsts or some prospect (or Tkachuk!) in lieu of Anderson. 

  

My thing is I don't know why Ottawa would give up those picks or Tkachuk. And they don't have their first rounder this year in any case

 

I dunno man. Individually, Giroux blows all those guys clear out of the water. Taken together, Stone is a UFA and would have no reason to sign for this iteration of the Flyers, even less so without the only superstar player we've had in 10 years. Duchene is a whinny tool who forgets how to play hockey in any season where he's not fighting for a new contract (not to mention his defensive ability makes JVR look like Shea Weber). Anderson is barely an improvement over Elliott, and I honestly think Hart should just be our starter next season. The jury's still out on Tkachuk. He's essentially the love child of Wayne Simmonds and Chris Neil. Two first rounders is nice, but that package just doesn't equal Giroux imo.

 

Tavares is a good Giroux comparable. What were teams offering for him?

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

That nauseated me. 

 

I second that notion .....  (barf)

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1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Jan Hlavc, Kim Johnsson, Pavel Brendl, and a Third?

 

image.png

 

 

Oh gawd no ...you trying to kill me!!!!  LOL

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A thought  I've seen around here recently is the Flyers "overvalue" their players and that's why we suck.

 

I can't buy into that narrative. At least not "full birther" anyway.  I see more nuance to that position than our players are bad.

They're not- they are super duper, A #1 under-performing this year.

If we are talking about the Flyers core not being better than Pgh, Tor, Was, and TbL...okay, I'm here for that conversation. That line of thinking has merit. 

 

Since 13/14 this group has earned 94,84,96,88,98 points during the regular season, that's an 92.2 points per season average which is "bubble playoff team". 

This year's group is "on pace" for 72 points...now you can't tell me that Chris Vandevelde and Valteri Fillpula are the reason this group is playing at this current level 20 full points below their average.

 

This season has been truly a series of unfortunate events for 3 months now. 

 

The big off-season acquisition misses 5 weeks at the start of the year because he took a shot off his knee at the spot where the pads aren't. 

All the goalies got hurt.

All the goalies except 79 struggled with concentration.

This  group would control the play for entire periods and hit posts, miss nets witness miraculous saves.  Then when this group does get sloppy the goalie who isn't hurt this week, is fishing the puck out of the net on the opponents first shot after 4 quality Flyers chances.

 

This group is beaten mentally. 

 

They need coached up, they need to practice always being hard on the puck, every game i see multiple plays where an opposition forechecker extends their team's o-zone time because our guys are casual on the puck. There needs to be more attention to detail. 

I don't think this team needs "blown up" I do think there needs to be a couple of moves made, the same ones I thought we needed over the summer. A legit top pairing defensman,  A legit 3C penalty killer. I think guys can be moved to make this happen. Does Voracek plus something bring back a top 3 defenseman ? 

This season is lost.  I don't think these players are all terrible.

 

Time to see what's cooking with the prospects and interviewing a new coach. A detail guy, a guy who will hold players accountable. 

 

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Nice post, mojo. Lots of good stuff.

 

58 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

A thought  I've seen around here recently is the Flyers "overvalue" their players and that's why we suck.


As someone who has used the phrase recently, I wouldn't say it's "why we suck." I'd say it's why they've been a middling, "bubble playoff team" for the past six years.

 

59 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

If we are talking about the Flyers core not being better than Pgh, Tor, Was, and TbL...okay, I'm here for that conversation.

 

Well, exactly. From where I sit, this team wasn't "a JVR" away from serious Cup contention. For me, the idea that they were is an indication of overvaluing at least parts of the current roster. I had hoped that JVR would lift them from being on the bubble and into a solid playoff spot. Obviously, we've seen where that's gone.

 

That said, Jake Voracek at $8.25M is undoubtedly an example of overvaluing a player. Doubling Dale Weise's salary for double the length of any contract he'd had since entry level. Nearly tripling Jordan Weal's salary (a guy who can't even get into the lineup consistently). Doubling Raffl's. Re-signing the Human Injury Machine Michal Neuvirth.

 

There are a few examples of overvaluing players in the roles as well: Slotting Patrick in as the second line center at 19 and doubling down on it this season. Expecting Provorov to not be a 21-year-old defenceman with the natural growing pains at the position (and, as you note, without a legit top pair defenseman to put him with). Putting two 30-goal scorers on the third line with a rookie pivot with 58 games of experience in the North American game. Andrew MacDonald.

 

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

they need to practice always being hard on the puck, every game i see multiple plays where an opposition forechecker extends their team's o-zone time because our guys are casual on the puck. There needs to be more attention to detail. 

 

It's terribly disappointing that veteran professional players aren't doing this in the first place and need to be told.

 

 

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I do think there needs to be a couple of moves made, the same ones I thought we needed over the summer. A legit top pairing defensman,  A legit 3C penalty killer. I think guys can be moved to make this happen.

 

I think the failure to address the two holes you identify (Top 3 D, 3C) are because the organization overvalued what they had in house. That's mostly on Hextall, but then, of course, his replacement came in and said pretty much the same thing ("we do need to look in house first"). To be clear, I don't blame them for not signing, for example, 31-year-old Grabner for a three year, $3.35M contract. I do blame them for thinking that Vorobyev was going to be able to fill that role as a 22-year-old rookie.

 

Lastly, saying that they are overvalued - at least when I do it - doesn't mean that the players are "terrible" as much as it means that as a group they're not good enough to seriously compete.

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37 minutes ago, radoran said:

Doubling Dale Weise's salary for double the length of any contract he'd had since entry level. Nearly tripling Jordan Weal's salary (a guy who can't even get into the lineup consistently). Doubling Raffl's. Re-signing the Human Injury Machine Michal Neuvirth.

 

There are a few examples of overvaluing players in the roles as well: Slotting Patrick in as the second line center at 19 and doubling down on it this season. Expecting Provorov to not be a 21-year-old defenceman with the natural growing pains at the position (and, as you note, without a legit top pair defenseman to put him with). Putting two 30-goal scorers on the third line with a rookie pivot with 58 games of experience in the North American game. Andrew MacDonald.

 

this is good stuff, i like how Andrew MacDonald needs no explanation...  +1

 

37 minutes ago, radoran said:

To be clear, I don't blame them for not signing, for example, 31-year-old Grabner for a three year, $3.35M contract. I do blame them for thinking that Vorobyev was going to be able to fill that role as a 22-year-old rookie.

this, yes.  Was anyone available who was worth the $ and also adding to a "center glut" in two years, but even then, wouldn't the Flyers be dealing with that "problem" from a position of 'well Grabner is 33 with one year on his deal, maybe he can bring us a right hand d'... or something.

 

Misha had a great end of the year at LVH and was legitimately one of the best looking forwards at camp and during the preseason. For whatever reason he wasn't given the leeway to grow into the role, but also, did he kill penalties in LVH ? I don't remember ever hearing that. So perhaps he was miscast for what "I" think a 3C should be.

I thought that kid saw the ice as well as Giroux and I also think he has great hands. He has some qualities to his game I think are exceptional, definitely worth allowing the growing pains and coaching them "out" so the good stuff can be utilized.  For whatever reason, the coach didn't want to do that.

And there is the crux of it, isn't it ? If the team is to take a step forward, the time allowed for the maturation of a talented young player becomes condensed so the team can keep pace. 

 

We agree more than we disagree about this. 

I am really shocked this team is playing this poorly. The whole is a lot worse than the sum of the parts right now.

 

The Flyers are proving you can't have it both ways, you can't be developing young guys and depending on them for crucial roles and expect then not to have nights, where they show their age.

Rebuilding and expecting to compete for division titles isn't a good fit, the old  "can't eat half of the **** sandwich" truth. 

 

 

Edited by mojo1917
added the **** sandwich bit.
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3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Misha had a great end of the year at LVH and was legitimately one of the best looking forwards at camp and during the preseason. For whatever reason he wasn't given the leeway to grow into the role

 

I liked Vorobyev a lot and don't really understand why they didn't give him the chance to grow into the role.

 

That said, I don't think putting him with Simmonds and JVR was a terribly good move for a "third" line.

 

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I am really shocked this team is playing this poorly. The whole is a lot worse than the sum of the parts right now.

 

It is somewhat mystifying, but then we have the interim coach flat out saying it's primarily in the players' heads.

 

It's clear that the firings of coach and GM didn't have the desired "shake up" effect - and from where I sit may have had the opposite effect of dumping more pressure on the team.

 

And while we all have fun with "trade/fire all the things!" this squad is more ripe for a foundational shift than the one that was one season removed from a Cup Final that they blew up to make this one.

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2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I liked Vorobyev a lot and don't really understand why they didn't give him the chance to grow into the role.

 

That said, I don't think putting him with Simmonds and JVR was a terribly good move for a "third" line.

 

 

It is somewhat mystifying, but then we have the interim coach flat out saying it's primarily in the players' heads.

 

It's clear that the firings of coach and GM didn't have the desired "shake up" effect - and from where I sit may have had the opposite effect of dumping more pressure on the team.

 

And while we all have fun with "trade/fire all the things!" this squad is more ripe for a foundational shift than the one that was one season removed from a Cup Final that they blew up to make this one.

That wasn't a foundational shift. That was Carter and Richards partying too hard, and our organization having gone through the Pelle Lindbergh tragedy and not wanting to deal with another one. The next move, or soon thereafter, SHOULD be a move that is a foundational shift. Plus, that team was way better than this one.

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2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I liked Vorobyev a lot and don't really understand why they didn't give him the chance to grow into the role.

 

That said, I don't think putting him with Simmonds and JVR was a terribly good move for a "third" line.

 

 

It is somewhat mystifying, but then we have the interim coach flat out saying it's primarily in the players' heads.

 

It's clear that the firings of coach and GM didn't have the desired "shake up" effect - and from where I sit may have had the opposite effect of dumping more pressure on the team.

 

And while we all have fun with "trade/fire all the things!" this squad is more ripe for a foundational shift than the one that was one season removed from a Cup Final that they blew up to make this one.

 

I'm actually wondering if it had the effect of exposing the truth behind the state of the team. For all the issues Scott had with Hextall, it's much more likely that Hextall correctly understood the pulse of the team. He didn't have a perfect read, but much more than Scott could ever dream of understanding.

 

So what we are seeing now is more of a 'predictable' effect that when you remove the GM mid-season (which is rare) with no plan, and then leave his head coach twisting in the wind for a few weeks before finally pulling the trigger, again with no plan, you end up with a team of players that are confused and in limbo.

 

No big surprise that they aren't performing *better* on the ice, because the GM and Coach were likely not the *major* problems.

 

 

 

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Here is a Meltzer take from the Flyers' propaganda machine:

 

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

Sadly, he is correct in that our meltdown has become a "contagion" and I agree with Rad's last post--the GM/Coach shakeup hasn't done much.  

 

This isn't as much a team as it is an assemblage of parts.  There is no sum.  

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1 minute ago, FD19372 said:

That wasn't a foundational shift. That was Carter and Richards partying too hard, and our organization having gone through the Pelle Lindbergh tragedy and not wanting to deal with another one.

 

Trading away your captain and top scorer seems pretty much like a foundational shift regardless of the reason for it.

 

Even if "the plan" was to "build" around a 35-year-old defenceman.

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26 minutes ago, brelic said:

So what we are seeing now is more of a 'predictable' effect that when you remove the GM mid-season (which is rare) with no plan, and then leave his head coach twisting in the wind for a few weeks before finally pulling the trigger, again with no plan, you end up with a team of players that are confused and in limbo.

 

This is where the whole "bias for action" thing blows up in the face. You are absolutely correct that how they've handled this is a complete joke. Makes me wonder why Quenneville would even bother considering taking this job.

 

26 minutes ago, brelic said:

No big surprise that they aren't performing *better* on the ice, because the GM and Coach were likely not the *major* problems.

 

I can see where there was concern that Hextall didn't address potential holes - like mojo pointed out with the top pair D and 3C positions.

 

Beyond that, what are the "major" problems on the squad? I would offer that overall they just aren't as good as some other teams, but I do think they should be ahead of the Islanders, Rangers, and probably the Hurricanes. Not to mention the Sens, Panthers, Wings, and Devils. That puts them into the "bubble playoff team" realm that they've been in for the past six years.

 

Why have the wheels just so obviously come off at this point?

 

The coach says it's in the players' heads. How do you get it out of their heads?

 

It's just damn painful to watch.

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13 minutes ago, radoran said:

Makes me wonder why Quenneville would even bother considering taking this job.

 

Makes me wonder if Quenneville is still even in the conversation for this HC gig.  We have heard nothing but silence on that front and I suspect it will be that way until the end of the season (which can't come soon enough).

Edited by pilldoc
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Just now, pilldoc said:

 

Makes me wonder if Quenneville is still even the conversation for the this HC gig.  We have heard nothing but silence on that front and I suspect it will be that way until the end of the season (which can't come soon enough).

 

If he's not in ol' Fletch's conversation, that's gross negligence from where I sit.

 

Whether that means Quenneville is interested is another story entirely.

 

Which brings us back to the "problem" discussion...

image.png

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3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

A thought  I've seen around here recently is the Flyers "overvalue" their players and that's why we suck.

Not sure about the organization, but I do think some fans (in general; not necessarily on this board) overvalue some of the players and prospects.  I'd say Ghost and Lindblom are in that category.  Although I love Konecny, I am not sure he's really untouchable.  I feel like some believe Frost and Farabee are locks for being top line forwards.  I have doubts about Myers being as good as many seem to expect.  I also think some fans have unrealistic expectations about prospects making the NHL team and having an impact.  The law of averages says its less likely that a guy like Connor Bunnaman is going to be a significant contributor in the NHL.  I think there has been some overvaluing of Stolarz and Lyon in the past.  Do I think the organization overvalues players?  Not sure.

 

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

They need coached up, they need to practice always being hard on the puck, every game i see multiple plays where an opposition forechecker extends their team's o-zone time because our guys are casual on the puck. There needs to be more attention to detail. 

Been a problem for a long time.  The term "casual" defines this team.  It was that way at times under Laviolette, Berube and cetainly Hakstol.  I think a lot of that has to do with the mentality of the players.  Very few, if any, on this team seem to have that killer instinct or innate tenacity.

 

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think this team needs "blown up" I do think there needs to be a couple of moves made, the same ones I thought we needed over the summer. A legit top pairing defensman,  A legit 3C penalty killer. I think guys can be moved to make this happen. Does Voracek plus something bring back a top 3 defenseman? 

I'd also try to find some leadership help for Giroux.

 

I wouldn't blow up the team to blow it up.  But, I am definitely looking to trade the UFAs, Voracek and probably Ghost (because I still think you could get a decent return for him).

 

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

A detail guy, a guy who will hold players accountable. 

Has to be someone that that these players respect as well.  I mean, I think a guy like Quenneville would get their attention right away in that regard.  I don't know enough about any of the other "hot" names that are out there.

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1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I am really shocked this team is playing this poorly. The whole is a lot worse than the sum of the parts right now.

You said it in your original post: it's mental at this point.  On paper, they have a ton of top 6 talent on the roster and solid top pairing.  Yeah, goaltending and the PK are brutal.  But, ****, they shouldn't look this bad across the board.

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26 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

This is where the whole "bias for action" thing blows up in the face. You are absolutely correct that how they've handled this is a complete joke. Makes me wonder why Quenneville would even bother considering taking this job.

 

For a professional organization, it sure is. There are sooo many more steps they could have taken before firing the GM.

 

Rightly or wrongly in terms of the product on the ice, Hextall was patient because he believed to his core that he had the franchise on the right path. He had a thick skin, and no doubt knew this was the hardest part of his process.

 

Scott has different priorities, that much is clear. That's where having a guy like Snider, whose passion for the Flyers was unrivaled, made a difference. It wasn't about dollars and cents for him the way it appears to be for Scott, who probably couldn't stand up in a pair of skates.

 

That is bound to create a disconnect, I guess.

 

26 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I can see where there was concern that Hextall didn't address potential holes - like mojo pointed out with the top pair D and 3C positions.

 

Beyond that, what are the "major" problems on the squad? I would offer that overall they just aren't as good as some other teams, but I do think they should be ahead of the Islanders, Rangers, and probably the Hurricanes. Not to mention the Sens, Panthers, Wings, and Devils. That puts them into the "bubble playoff team" realm that they've been in for the past six years.

 

Why have the wheels just so obviously come off at this point?

 

The coach says it's in the players' heads. How do you get it out of their heads?

 

It's just damn painful to watch.

 

Very painful to watch. In fact, I've stopped watching actively. Sometimes it's on in the background, or I might watch a period and if it's not entertaining, I just do something else. Sucks to have another wasted season.

 

The other "major" problems on the squad, I think, just come down to time and development. I've read so many times that I've lost count that a GM can only truly be evaluated from the 5 year point moving forward. Hextall was there for less than 5. His draft picks were just starting to make the squad. 

 

Again, he had flaws and blindspots like everyone does, but a few of his picks are bound to develop into excellent NHLers over the next 2-3 years, and that's the team he was trying to create.

 

Now we have to wait and see what kind of team Fletcher wants.

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13 minutes ago, brelic said:

Again, he had flaws and blindspots like everyone does, but a few of his picks are bound to develop into excellent NHLers over the next 2-3 years, and that's the team he was trying to create.

 

Now we have to wait and see what kind of team Fletcher wants.

 

I think some of our friends on the Wild Forum might have some insight into that...

 

👺

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20 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I think some of our friends on the Wild Forum might have some insight into that...

 

👺

 

Just look at the Wild. That's what you'll get.

 

Seems to prefer safe, two-way players and finesse defensemen.

 

And Scandinavians.

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      The question is where is the rot?  I'm not going to pretend to know where the rot is or which players need to be removed but I'll spit ball a bit and welcome any opinions.   If I'm remembering right, the slow starts and not playing 60 minutes started when Richards/Carter where the center pieces of this team.  In fact, Richards becomes the captain in the 2008 season until 2011.  Pronger becomes captain for 2 years and then Giroux in 2013.     So who else came into the fray during this time? 
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    • 5
      Post
      Kings missed the playoff four years after the lockout, then lost in the first round two seasons. Then made The Trades and won the Cup, went to the Conference Final, and won the Cup.   Then the wheels fell off.     Maybe didn't help that the "scoring winger" was put on the third line with a first-time NHL center and a recovering-from-injury Simmonds? Also, too, there was no obvious "fix" to the goaltending on offer last offseason. None. Zero. Zilch.   More accurately, the team is the same middling bunch that's been taking up ice time at the Big Bank Building for the past six years.   That isn't at all "at" you, mojo, but I really think this "team" is overvalued. I do believe they have more "talent" than they are showing, but I don't see all these pieces fitting together.   There's no "there" there. Goes back to the Island of Misfit Toys moniker.   They've been "re-tooling" this "core" for six years and we are where we are. The facts of the matter are that this "core" simply isn't as good as the other "cores" in the Metro and the East (to say nothing of the West).   I mean, it's great that Giroux is fifth in the league in points over the past six years (16th in points per game), and all, but Crosby, Kane, and Ovechkin (all above him) have Cups to their resume. The "other guy" is Jamie Benn who is apparently pulling his own "productive but disappointing" act in Dallas.   Take a real, honest, solid look at the competition in the East and tell me you think that Giroux/Voracek/JVR (or Couturier, or whoever) can compete with Tampa (Stamkos/Kucherov/Point), Washington (Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov), or Pittsburgh (Crosby/Malkin/Kessel). And we're not even getting to Toronto (Matthews/Marner/Tavares) or (*gasp*) Buffalo (Eichel/Skinner/Reinhart) much less "rebuilding" teams like the Rags and Isles who are above them in the standings.   I just don't see it. And I don't see it today because the past six years have given me no real reason to believe that they can.   Because they haven't. And the organization just went all "win now" with them and got a dozen freshly laid eggs for the effort.   Happy - THRILLED - to be proven wrong.
    • 4
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      Well isn't that telling right there. 
    • 4
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      Trading giroux would be a mistake. They can get good again fast, teams do it all the time. It wont take five years.  Giroux is still only 30 for a few days. When his contract is up he will be 34. Its exactly what you want. He finished second in league scoring last year on essentially the same crap team we are watching now. You are lucky to get a second line player for 7 million these days, 8 million cap hit for a guy like giroux for a few more years is why you sign those contracts, those years are the bargain years.   Giroux will still be contributing big to whatever team he is on, costing them 8 million while guys like mcdavid will be in the neighborhood of 15 million.  The last few years of a contract like girouxs are the gravy years. The point where his skills decline but you expected it so you have a new number one pp guy, first line guy etc. You trade him at that point and you end up with a worse player and a worse salary cap hit more than likely.   Dont believe me, try to replace what giroux has done over the last few years(is there even anyone?) with a free agent that is equal and see if you get it done for 8 mil. So big deal if he slows down a bit in the next few years, you guys have predicted it for five years now and he just keeps on scoring, but it doesnt matter, a guy like him will always make you better.  
    • 4
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      Why not mention 2011-12 when he went head to head vs Sid and ate him alive? was he not a leader that year? is it his fault(injury) they lost in the second round after he scored 17 points in 10 games and 2 short handed goals?   That series he had against pittsburg is one of the best series any player has ever had. He had 14 points in SIX games.   The best thing they can do with Giroux is to play him until his contract expires and find him a center and winger.  All this talk of "moving him to the wing" is not a surprise to people who followed him since he was drafted because he was drafted as a winger. Thats his position, the flyers moved him. Remember what he said when they moved him and everyone talked about it as if it was a stroke of genius “That’s funny because I was pretty much a winger all my life,” Everyone who plays with the guy gets better, even raffl scored 21 goals with him. They move guys up, they do well, they move them away and everyone wonders why they regressed.  Giroux has been on the team for 10 years more or less. He is still 30. I can remember everyone saying exactly this same stuff about steve Yzerman. Remember? the wings had to trade him, he was no leader, he couldnt win, they couldnt win with him, get what you can for him while you can, he just doesnt fit with the style etc, every excuse.  What did detroit do? they kept him and built a better team around him and 14 years after joining the team he won a conn smythe, a few cups and was suddenly the greatest leader in the game at that time.  You just cant give up on guys like giroux because you will be waiting a long time for the next one. Build around him, dont create a hole you cant fill.
    • 4
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      Not sure about the organization, but I do think some fans (in general; not necessarily on this board) overvalue some of the players and prospects.  I'd say Ghost and Lindblom are in that category.  Although I love Konecny, I am not sure he's really untouchable.  I feel like some believe Frost and Farabee are locks for being top line forwards.  I have doubts about Myers being as good as many seem to expect.  I also think some fans have unrealistic expectations about prospects making the NHL team and having an impact.  The law of averages says its less likely that a guy like Connor Bunnaman is going to be a significant contributor in the NHL.  I think there has been some overvaluing of Stolarz and Lyon in the past.  Do I think the organization overvalues players?  Not sure.   Been a problem for a long time.  The term "casual" defines this team.  It was that way at times under Laviolette, Berube and cetainly Hakstol.  I think a lot of that has to do with the mentality of the players.  Very few, if any, on this team seem to have that killer instinct or innate tenacity.   I'd also try to find some leadership help for Giroux.   I wouldn't blow up the team to blow it up.  But, I am definitely looking to trade the UFAs, Voracek and probably Ghost (because I still think you could get a decent return for him).   Has to be someone that that these players respect as well.  I mean, I think a guy like Quenneville would get their attention right away in that regard.  I don't know enough about any of the other "hot" names that are out there.

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