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Howie58

It's Time for the Retrofit

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12 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Fletcher will be paying Parise and Suter until the Rapture...

 

The only reason it isn't the Flyers paying them til infinity is because they wanted to go to Minnesoter (that's for Rad)

It's not like Holmgren didn't try to hand out yet another ridiculously stupid contract or two.

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On 1/1/2019 at 8:42 PM, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

Here is a good take on the team's status:

 

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The chances for the playoffs are next to nil. It's clear we don't have much talent.  Somewhere between blow-up and do-nothing is to start retooling, starting with the "good guys" like Weise who don't do much (Weise as example).  It's also time to bring on the youngins. This summer may be the time for sizable trades. Food for thought.

 

 

I could not disagree more that this team has no talent.  This team's talent is extremely poorly coached and has been since Lavvy was fired.  That's their biggest problem.  

 

The gang at broad street has lost a lot of credibility with me this season.  They've really sort of betrayed themselves as a bunch of post-adolescent drinking pals who can't remember what they said or wrote the week prior.  

 

I think a larger problem than the existence of a player like Weise on the team is that Weise himself was essentially one of the most consistent players this year under Hakstol.  Hakstol's whole system was built around encouraging every player to play like Weise or MacDonald or Lehtera.  SLOW.  

 

Hakstol's system was simply unable to keep up with the level of speed and talent at the NHL level.  He seemed obsessed with slow players taking up space, trying to shut down lanes by not moving and counting on the opposition to make mistakes and not follow the puck.

 

The problem is that in the NHL, the opposition is too fast and skilled for that.  They don't make those mistakes, they simply skate or pass around the lane you've blocked and in the end all you've done is block your goalie from being able to see.  Or if you do manage to break it up, they're going to beat you to the resulting loose puck (or even steal it right from your stick if you block it cleanly).  

 

In the mean time, there's no movement forward because all your players are standing like old grey mares in their own end trying to take up space.  No outlet and everyone's starting from the same marks which means the faster hungrier opposition is going to catch up with your outlets.

 

I watched it for 4 years and it got older and older and older.  I could see how it could work in college because they players aren't as fast and aren't as skilled.  I could even see how it could work for at least a little while for fairly fast and skilled guys like Oshie and Toews when they got to the pros.

 

Hakstol might have been the right coach for the Phantoms, these past 4 years, but not the Flyers.  

 

They need a coach who understands the speed and skill of the NHL game and how to coach enough confidence back into his players for them to start using the speed and skill they have.  These guys can do this at an extremely high level.  They've literally been told for 4 years not to.  like they were made to think they were outfoxing the system by playing slow dumb hockey.  

 

They weren't.  They were just playing slow dumb hockey.  It's time to open it back up again and remind them of what they know how to do.  

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, FD19372 said:

That wasn't a foundational shift. That was Carter and Richards partying too hard, and our organization having gone through the Pelle Lindbergh tragedy and not wanting to deal with another one. The next move, or soon thereafter, SHOULD be a move that is a foundational shift. Plus, that team was way better than this one.

 

If you're right about the above, then Homer is an even worse manager than I thought.  

If you're worried about them partying, you sign them up for the NHLPA substance abuse programs, you don't make them someone else's problem and leave them hanging out there... especially when your trainers and doctors are the ones pumping them with Oxy so they can play with two separated shoulders or two broken feet.  

 

Homer traded them because they pissed him off.  The same reason he fired Hextall, because he pissed him off.  If this isn't clear to all of us by now, i don't know what is.

 

I honestly don't know what the hell Homer was thinking when he made those trades.  And like I've said in the past it wasn't those trades that were the problem.  It was those kind of rebuild moves followed by win now moves like Bryz.  It was trading JVR for Luke Schenn... what the hell was that move about?   It was not even trying to resign Jagr and Carle necessitating giving a big fat contracts to MacDonald and VLC and trading JVR for Schenn.    There was no rhyme or reason to any of it and now he appears to be back at it again.  

 

Proof in the pudding is that when he brought Hextall on, Hextall told everyone it was likely a 5 year plan and Homer supposedly gave him the autonomy to implement it, but when 4 years and change didn't get it there, Homer decided to screw that and start from scratch.   

 

What kind of freedom do you really think Fletcher is going to feel knowing that's the situation he walked into?  A president gave the GM "freedom" and later revealed that he really had no freedom.  

 

Homer is BAD AT THIS.  He needs to go bye bye and Dave Scott needs to go back to encouraging Marketing wizardry like Gritty and find a big boy to leave the hockey stuff to instead of this thick headed, petty, fragile ego driven baby he's got running things now. 

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10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

There was no rhyme or reason to any of it

 

I think the rhyme and reason for it was the "just make the playoffs and anything can happen" mentality that the organization (Homer) has.

 

That mentality and mantra leads you to make short-sighted moves with the intention of making "this year's run" and not thinking about the long term development.

 

That simply doesn't work in the NHL these days - certainly not since the lockout. (It also flies in the face of how Homer built starting with the Briere/Hartnell/Timonen acquisitions).

 

FWIW, I think he was desperate to get The Old Man another Cup before he died. But his overall phillyosophy hasn't changed since the funeral.

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3 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I think the rhyme and reason for it was the "just make the playoffs and anything can happen" mentality that the organization (Homer) has.

 

That mentality and mantra leads you to make short-sighted moves with the intention of making "this year's run" and not thinking about the long term development.

 

That simply doesn't work in the NHL these days - certainly not since the lockout. (It also flies in the face of how Homer built starting with the Briere/Hartnell/Timonen acquisitions).

 

FWIW, I think he was desperate to get The Old Man another Cup before he died. But his overall phillyosophy hasn't changed since the funeral.

Sounds so much like another day trader without a plan that we know and love. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, King Knut said:

The problem is that in the NHL, the opposition is too fast and skilled for that. 

K-Squared:

 

Happy New Year and best wishes for 2019.  I agree that Hakstol may not have done enough with his talent.  But I wonder if this gang can really compete in terms of skill.  We win faceoffs. And we take plenty of shots. But there is little to show for it, particularly on the PP.  Hakstol may have preached a defensive shell game because he knew the horses were standardbreds.  

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26 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

K-Squared:

 

Happy New Year and best wishes for 2019.  I agree that Hakstol may not have done enough with his talent.  But I wonder if this gang can really compete in terms of skill.  We win faceoffs. And we take plenty of shots. But there is little to show for it, particularly on the PP.  Hakstol may have preached a defensive shell game because he knew the horses were standardbreds.  

You know what is really weird about the "plenty of shots" thing (which is true)?  While watching the game, I get the impression from some of them that they are scared to shoot.  And then you look up and they have a decent amount of shots. 

 

But they pass their way out of quality shots.  The game against Dallas, with the repeated odd man rushes especially in the third, you could guarantee the puck carrier wasn't going to shoot.  And then the last pass too late to be successful.  But it goes down as a shot. Sometimes two if there is a rebound jam attempt. 

 

Patrick seems like he simply does not want to shoot at this point. It's a shame, because he does have a nice shot. But he'll do anything to not shoot. Ghost is looking that way. 

 

Voracek would try to pass through the entire 82nd Airborne. 

 

Giroux seems to be willing to shoot but it's possible he's being too cute with it because he's missing more than not. 

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4 hours ago, Howie58 said:

K-Squared:

 

Happy New Year and best wishes for 2019.  I agree that Hakstol may not have done enough with his talent.  But I wonder if this gang can really compete in terms of skill.  We win faceoffs. And we take plenty of shots. But there is little to show for it, particularly on the PP.  Hakstol may have preached a defensive shell game because he knew the horses were standardbreds.  

 

They usually win face offs over a game. 

 

 It as for the skill, here’s my example:   Look at Ghost his first season when he was called up mid-way. 

 

Look at Ghost now.  

 

3 years of Hakstol made him boring, predictable and entirely defendable.  

 

Thst is is not how you win at the NHL level.  

 

I fear the damage mage is done though and this team will have to be dismantled.  

 

I may may be ready to give up.  It’s too effing pathetic at this point. 

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4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

But they pass their way out of quality shots.

 

Amen.

 

Can find a better example than this a 2 on 0!!!! And they pass their way out of it!!!

 

 

giphy.gif

 

When will it change?

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Lebrun saying the Preda and Jets are eyeing Simmonds. 

 

Thoughts on return?

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34 minutes ago, brelic said:

Lebrun saying the Preda and Jets are eyeing Simmonds. 

 

Thoughts on return?

 

Any trade with the Preds begins with Eeli Tolvanen.   Tolvanen and a 1st for Simmonds.  I may want Fabbro, too.

 

With the Jets, for me, I'm talking to them abouit Kyle Connor and picks. Otherwise, any trade with the Jets has to involve 

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 or Kristian Vesalainen and picks.  I would actually prefer two out of the three of those names and we could probably forget the picks. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Any trade with the Preds begins with Eeli Tolvanen.   Tolvanen and a 1st for Simmonds.  I may want Fabbro, too.

 

With the Jets, for me, I'm talking to them abouit Kyle Connor and picks. Otherwise, any trade with the Jets has to involve 

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 or Kristian Vesalainen and picks.  I would actually prefer two out of the three of those names and we could probably forget the picks. 

 

 

 

I would trade him straight up for Tolvanen.

 

I can't see them moving Simmonds unless you sweeten that alot.

 

Kristian Vesalainen I can see.

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

Any trade with the Preds begins with Eeli Tolvanen.   Tolvanen and a 1st for Simmonds.  I may want Fabbro, too.

 

With the Jets, for me, I'm talking to them abouit Kyle Connor and picks. Otherwise, any trade with the Jets has to involve 

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 or Kristian Vesalainen and picks.  I would actually prefer two out of the three of those names and we could probably forget the picks. 

 

 

 

I like those options. I have to wonder if they'd give those guys up though. Tolvanen I can see, but Connor I'm not so sure. He's been fantastic all season.

 

But hey, if the Jets are up for it, I say bring it on. That would be a great return for a pending UFA, and Simmonds would be going to a contender, which is exactly what should happen imo. He deserves a shot at some cups before he starts thinking retirement.

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3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

Any trade with the Preds begins with Eeli Tolvanen.   Tolvanen and a 1st for Simmonds.  I may want Fabbro, too.

 

With the Jets, for me, I'm talking to them abouit Kyle Connor and picks. Otherwise, any trade with the Jets has to involve 

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 or Kristian Vesalainen and picks.  I would actually prefer two out of the three of those names and we could probably forget the picks. 

 

 

 

This seems to have legs I read this in the Winnipeg Sun.

 

So I hope they can can a few suitors.

 

This could drive up the price.

 

Especially with the Preds and Jets likely to do battle this coming playoffs.

 

Hopefully Flether sends him to the highest bidder. 

 

And I prefer to flip Wayne out West.

 

Now if they can get someone who would like Jake too.

 

Then that would leave them stuck with just Mcdud and Weise.

 

Lehtera I ain't even worried about since he is off the books.

 

It would be nice if they could find two teams wanting Elliot and Neuvy highly unlikely I know.

 

Waive McKenna if Stolie ever makes it back and ride it out with Hart and Stolie.

 

Lyon and Mckenna for the Phantoms playoff run.

 

Unless Sandstrom is done early and wants to come over like Lindblom did.

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You know i have seen the Wild fans say that Fletcher has an affection for Scandinavian players.

 

Maybe that is what the Flyers are lacking. Some of that skill set from those countries to mix with the north americans they have.

 

I mean i look at some of the top guys and there are some of those players out there that are playing very well.

 

Laine

Landeskog

Pettersson

Aho

Lindholm

Rantanen

Forsberg

Barkov

 

Just to name a few off the top of my head at forward.

 

Defensemen

 

Karlsson

Ekholm

Hedman

Gustafsson

Ristolainen

Dahlin

Klingberg

Heiskanen   

Lindholm

Vantanen

 

Like i said just to name a few. And this isn't too say they in any way are better than North American players.

 

I mean Finland just beat USA in the finals

 

Sweden last to Canada the year before.

 

Finland won it in 2016 and 2014 beating Sweden too.

 

Sweden won it in 2012 and lost to USA in 2013. Placed bronze in 2010 and lost in back to back years of 2008-09 to Canada.

 

Point being this area put out some very good players and the key is finding them and integrating them into the lineup too.

 

The Flyers lack these type of guys. They have Lindblom and Hagg.

 

So maybe a better blend couldn't hurt. And no let's not go all Scandinavian and such but let's get a good mix of skill in here.

 

Just two sense let's not put ourselves in a box. Let's think out side of it and looks everywhere there is talent.

 

I think it's getting better they have some inthe talent pool it just needs to get bigger.

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38 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Maybe that is what the Flyers are lacking. Some of that skill set from those countries to mix with the north americans they have.

 

I definitely agree we could stand to pay more attention to scandinavian junior leagues. You're absolutely right in that the last decade or so has been marked with phenomenal new players coming into the NHL from those countries. I expect many scout teams are looking at these recent arrivals and planning to spend more time over there, and I hope the Flyers are doing the same. If Fletch is already a fan, that's even better.

 

As far as mixing with current players goes, that is a bit harder to predict I think. Certainly it seems unlikely any 2019 draftee is just going to show up and take the league by storm as a rookie. I know guys like Hughes and Kakko are apparently well regarded, but I haven't heard them referred to in a manner similar to a McDavid or Matthews or Eichel. The bar is very high for that kind of player.

 

Do we have current prospects who could take up some of those spots? Well, we got amazingly lucky with Giroux some years ago, so it's not impossible. It's not exceptionally likely mind you. Certainly I think we may find another TK-like player, though there's no telling if they'll be able to just pick up and play in the NHL either. Even TK struggled quite a bit as a rookie. Regardless, we need better than a TK at this point. We need another Giroux before our current one starts to decline.

 

I dunno. There just seems to be so much lacking right now. I really hope we see Fletch move some of that ineffective core though. That's step no.1. It's hard to talk progress with Voracek taking up so much space. JVR seems to need Giroux to be as useful as was expected of him, which is also not the best situation. So I dunno.

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3 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Certainly it seems unlikely any 2019 draftee is just going to show up and take the league by storm as a rookie.

 

You mean like Pettersson just did this season. Yeah you sound like the scouts who underestimated him.

 

You never know what can happen. You have to do your homework. I won't put limits on a kid of what he can and can't do.

 

These kids don't have to be Mcdavid or Matthews generational talent you have to have the 1st pick any ways to get those guys anyways.

 

Aho was a 2nd round pick. Rantanen was the 10 pick. Mattias Ekholm was a 4th round pick. Your scouts have to find these guys.

 

Point being it takes all types. The Flyers have a few gems i think like Ginning, Lycksell, Hogberg and maybe Wesfalt.

 

Sandstrom will come over next year to see where he fits in. Ersson is another goalie find.

 

You never know with these kids. The biggest muscle you can't measure...the heart...the current Flyer players need a lot of that.

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Just now, OccamsRazor said:

You mean like Pettersson just did this season. Yeah you sound like the scouts who underestimated him.

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean actually. I think one major reason Pettersson was passed over is because of where he's from. If he had been in North America, I have to imagine he'd have been projected higher. The difference in talent is too noticeable for it not to have been fairly evident to a pro scout who does this for a living. I expect the league difference played a solid part. He's a perfect example imo of having to spend more attention in Scandinavian leagues.

 

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Aho was a 2nd round pick. Rantanen was the 10 pick. Mattias Ekholm was a 4th round pick. Your scouts have to find these guys.

 

You seem to think we're disagreeing... we're not as far as I can see... We're both mentioning how we should be spending more time paying attention to scandinavian players, or am I missing something?

 

Do I think we're going to get some young kid who will completely change our team for the 2019-20 season? Well, not really no. That seems like a mammoth thing to ask. We are dead last in the league after all...

 

That's not to say it's impossible, but even Pettersson's emergence is not enough for that. Vancouver is 20th right now. They really shouldn't be making the playoffs either despite Pettersson. 

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4 minutes ago, elmatus said:

You seem to think we're disagreeing... we're not as far as I can see...

 

No just further hammering home my pointor trying to.

 

Someone will post in a few minutes in defense like i am bashing north american player or something too...it's coming i know.

 

My point is after watching my local Hurricanes who have dismantled the Flyers easily have many kids from Sweden and Finland.

 

And well i don't hate the Canes in any means but it sort of pisses me off to see them playing well and my Flyers not.

 

Flyers just need more of that influence is all. They shouldn't discount it. 

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8 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Vancouver is 20th right now.

 

One of their main issues is in net though. And depth in the bottom 6.

 

Could use some more skill in the defense too.

 

But they are getting better and have some good kids coming.

 

They have the kid who just played for Canada coming soon in goal. And Thatcher Demko who should be helping soon.

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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

One of their main issues is in net though. And depth in the bottom 6.

 

Could use some more skill in the defense too.

 

But they are getting better and have some good kids coming.

 

They have the kid who just played for Canada coming soon in goal. And Thatcher Demko who should be helping soon.

 

I'd be lying if I said I pay much attention to the Canucks, but they do seem to have some nice pieces to work with in those young guns. Hopefully they can find a way. Pettersson, Bosner, and Horvat are a great start for sure.

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21 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I'd be lying if I said I pay much attention to the Canucks, but they do seem to have some nice pieces to work with in those young guns. Hopefully they can find a way. Pettersson, Bosner, and Horvat are a great start for sure.

 

They have 3 really good defensemen coming too.

 

Olli Juolevi, Quinn Hughes and Jett Woo.

 

Is there a cooler name than Jett Woo?

 

Kole Lind at forward to go with the young ones they have.

 

Dimitry Zhukenov should be coming over soon too.

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:02 PM, ruxpin said:

 

With the Jets, for me, I'm talking to them abouit Kyle Connor and picks. Otherwise, any trade with the Jets has to involve 

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 or Kristian Vesalainen and picks.  I would actually prefer two out of the three of those names and we could probably forget the picks. 

 

 

No way in hell that you would get "AND picks" if Connor was coming back.  It would be Simmonds AND something something to get Kyle Connor.  I could see something like Vesalainen and Petan for Simmonds being more realistic.  Ghost would fit in nicely with the Jets as their defence is very active - that could get you someone like Niku and picks back as well.  Tyler Myers is an upcoming UFA, but I'm not sure Winnipeg will part with him before season's end.

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16 minutes ago, Clarke2Leach said:

No way in hell that you would get "AND picks" if Connor was coming back.  It would be Simmonds AND something something to get Kyle Connor.  I could see something like Vesalainen and Petan for Simmonds being more realistic.  Ghost would fit in nicely with the Jets as their defence is very active - that could get you someone like Niku and picks back as well.  Tyler Myers is an upcoming UFA, but I'm not sure Winnipeg will part with him before season's end.

I agree with Connor and Simmonds, but I'm inquiring there first.  Depending upon what the pick is (a 1st round is off the table), I'm considering it. 

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Well that is an improvement.

 

Now if they could just fix the PP.

 

Sounds like they should just skate a man down on the PP too.

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      Trading giroux would be a mistake. They can get good again fast, teams do it all the time. It wont take five years.  Giroux is still only 30 for a few days. When his contract is up he will be 34. Its exactly what you want. He finished second in league scoring last year on essentially the same crap team we are watching now. You are lucky to get a second line player for 7 million these days, 8 million cap hit for a guy like giroux for a few more years is why you sign those contracts, those years are the bargain years.   Giroux will still be contributing big to whatever team he is on, costing them 8 million while guys like mcdavid will be in the neighborhood of 15 million.  The last few years of a contract like girouxs are the gravy years. The point where his skills decline but you expected it so you have a new number one pp guy, first line guy etc. You trade him at that point and you end up with a worse player and a worse salary cap hit more than likely.   Dont believe me, try to replace what giroux has done over the last few years(is there even anyone?) with a free agent that is equal and see if you get it done for 8 mil. So big deal if he slows down a bit in the next few years, you guys have predicted it for five years now and he just keeps on scoring, but it doesnt matter, a guy like him will always make you better.  
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      Why not mention 2011-12 when he went head to head vs Sid and ate him alive? was he not a leader that year? is it his fault(injury) they lost in the second round after he scored 17 points in 10 games and 2 short handed goals?   That series he had against pittsburg is one of the best series any player has ever had. He had 14 points in SIX games.   The best thing they can do with Giroux is to play him until his contract expires and find him a center and winger.  All this talk of "moving him to the wing" is not a surprise to people who followed him since he was drafted because he was drafted as a winger. Thats his position, the flyers moved him. Remember what he said when they moved him and everyone talked about it as if it was a stroke of genius “That’s funny because I was pretty much a winger all my life,” Everyone who plays with the guy gets better, even raffl scored 21 goals with him. They move guys up, they do well, they move them away and everyone wonders why they regressed.  Giroux has been on the team for 10 years more or less. He is still 30. I can remember everyone saying exactly this same stuff about steve Yzerman. Remember? the wings had to trade him, he was no leader, he couldnt win, they couldnt win with him, get what you can for him while you can, he just doesnt fit with the style etc, every excuse.  What did detroit do? they kept him and built a better team around him and 14 years after joining the team he won a conn smythe, a few cups and was suddenly the greatest leader in the game at that time.  You just cant give up on guys like giroux because you will be waiting a long time for the next one. Build around him, dont create a hole you cant fill.
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      Not sure about the organization, but I do think some fans (in general; not necessarily on this board) overvalue some of the players and prospects.  I'd say Ghost and Lindblom are in that category.  Although I love Konecny, I am not sure he's really untouchable.  I feel like some believe Frost and Farabee are locks for being top line forwards.  I have doubts about Myers being as good as many seem to expect.  I also think some fans have unrealistic expectations about prospects making the NHL team and having an impact.  The law of averages says its less likely that a guy like Connor Bunnaman is going to be a significant contributor in the NHL.  I think there has been some overvaluing of Stolarz and Lyon in the past.  Do I think the organization overvalues players?  Not sure.   Been a problem for a long time.  The term "casual" defines this team.  It was that way at times under Laviolette, Berube and cetainly Hakstol.  I think a lot of that has to do with the mentality of the players.  Very few, if any, on this team seem to have that killer instinct or innate tenacity.   I'd also try to find some leadership help for Giroux.   I wouldn't blow up the team to blow it up.  But, I am definitely looking to trade the UFAs, Voracek and probably Ghost (because I still think you could get a decent return for him).   Has to be someone that that these players respect as well.  I mean, I think a guy like Quenneville would get their attention right away in that regard.  I don't know enough about any of the other "hot" names that are out there.

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