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phlfly

Trade Giroux F away

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, radoran said:

Retain $2M and call it a day. At $6.25M he's probably about right.

 

Honestly, I would be willing to do that deal.   

 

Your entire post is pretty spot on in my opinion.   I have read elsewhere that G should have his letter removed.  I think you (1) either keep him on the roster or (2) look to see if there is a contender willing to pay up for his services.  As you said, G is a fantastic hockey player and someone that will always be one of my favorites but not sure his "let the play do the talking" approach is something this team needs right now.   There are a lot of fragile minds right now and I think the young kids need a vocal leader.   Not sure what the answer is and I am not sure he is the answer to navigate this dumpster fire.

 

As I said previously there is not a single player on this team that I would say is untouchable outside of Hart.   And I want Hart back in the AHL ASAP.   I want him nowhere near this group of hockey mental midgets.

Edited by murraycraven
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4 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

I have read elsewhere that G should have his letter removed.  I think you (1) either keep him on the roster or (2) look to see if there is a contender willing to pay up for his services. 

 

Stripping the C helps no one at this point. Especially if you don't have someone to give it to. Strip him and you're back in the Lindros Situation which is a steady slope to a trade.

 

The organization has been a mess since "winning" The Trades and they've defied efforts at a "rebuild" instead opting for the "retool" so they don't have to be a bottom dweller in the standings.

 

Didn't quite go as planned.

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6 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Stripping the C helps no one at this point. Especially if you don't have someone to give it to. Strip him and you're back in the Lindros Situation which is a steady slope to a trade.

 

The organization has been a mess since "winning" The Trades and they've defied efforts at a "rebuild" instead opting for the "retool" so they don't have to be a bottom dweller in the standings.

 

Didn't quite go as planned.

 

 

100% Agree

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1 hour ago, murraycraven said:

I think the young kids need a vocal leader

This is the key, right here.  And it applies to the coach too.  I like to think that in watching other sports, watching how coaches perform -- college football, professional football -- the most successful teams I've noticed have coaches who are vocal, engaged on the sidelines, intense and high-energy.  It sets the tone for the team, for the individual players.  They know what is expected.  They hear it and see it from their coach.  It trickles down to individuals in the unit.  It's how leaders lead.  I've seen it in the military too.  It's what drove me nuts watching coaches Stevens and Hakstol. 

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17 hours ago, ruxpin said:

It's not the only reason we make fun of you. 

 

I'd move Voracek and Simmonds long before Giroux. 

I agree.  Move the others first. If you don't want to keep him for his production, and it's been pretty solid this year, I'd keep Giroux for no other reason than that at some point these young players will need someone with experience to look towards, who could be a mentor to them, guide them help them learn the game in some way.  The young guys are going to need that voice and guidance and it'd be better to keep him than it would be to bring in the outside "veteran."  Keep Giroux, but take the pressure off him in the next couple of years to be "the guy."  Pass the "C" along at that point when it feels less forced, mutually agreed to, after the organization has sorted out what it's going to do, what it's plan is.  I don't think he needs to be captain for life.  He'll still be decent enough to contribute and he may surprise us if he's relieved of that responsibility. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, radoran said:

I think Giroux is a fantastic self-motivator. That's where "the Shift" came from. I don't know that he's a great motivator for others - and don't think he's shown much of it beyond "by example." Not sure you can "learn" that at the NHL level, either.

 

I honestly wonder how much that matters. At some point, the players being "motivated" have to show they're capable of stepping up. There's only so much a fun little speech can do. If the other guy is icing a better team, or if they're running a more effective game plan, that matters tremendously more than one skater who can give a rousing speech.

 

That's not to say there isn't other stuff I'd like to see him do better. I'd love to see him call a powerplay on the ice and have it work out. He's got a sick hockey IQ. It would be nice if we saw him use it more to help others on the ice in key situations like that. He seems to try, but it never really works. Maybe that just isn't a skill set he possesses, and that I would say is unfortunate given the letter he carries.

 

But a locker room speech? Blargh. This isn't hollywood. 

 

Aside from the very few true generational talent type players, skaters generally can't just win a game despite a weak team and with a crappy game plan from the coaching staff. It's an uphill battle.

 

I would honestly question anyone saying they want to build a team around Giroux. You build a team around McDavid, or Crosby, or some sort of insane goalie talent. That's really about it. And even then, Crosby's not winning anything without Malkin, and McDavid can barely fight his way into the playoffs despite having true gamebreaking talent.

 

Another unfortunate thing to add to this. If we look at the teams who have won the cup in the last number of years, virtually all of them have had no 1-3 picks who turned out to be complete studs. If there's any real tried and true formula for success, it looks like that formula involves a ton of losing and getting top picks. 

 

Here's something for the Giroux haters though. Considering how amazingly important he has been to this team winning any games at all, it's entirely possible we might have had some of those 1-3 picks over the last few years if we didn't have Giroux on the team. So there is that.

Edited by elmatus

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Just now, elmatus said:

 

I honestly wonder how much that matters. At some point, the players being "motivated" have to show they're capable of stepping up. There's only so much a fun little speech can do. If the other guy is icing a better team, or if they're running a more effective game plan, I wager that matters more than one skater who can give a rousing speech.

 

That's not to say there isn't other stuff I'd like to see him do better. I'd love to see him call a powerplay on the ice and have it work out. He's got a sick hockey IQ. It would be nice if we saw him use it more to help others on the ice in key situations like that. He seems to try, but it never really works. Maybe that just isn't a skill set he possesses, and that I would say is unfortunate given the letter he carries.

 

But a locker room speech? Blargh. This isn't hollywood. 

 

Aside from the very few true generational talent type players, skaters generally can't just win a game despite a weak team and with a crappy game plan from the coaching staff. It's an uphill battle.

 

I would honestly question anyone saying they want to build a team around Giroux. You build a team around McDavid, or Crosby, or some sort of insane goalie talent. That's really about it. And even then, Crosby's not winning anything without Malkin, and McDavid can barely fight his way into the playoffs despite having true gamebreaking talent.

 

Another unfortunate thing to add to this. If we look at the teams who have won the cup in the last number of years, virtually all of them have had no 1-3 picks who turned out to be complete studs. If there's any real tried and true formula for success, it looks like that formula involves a ton of losing and getting top picks. 

 

Here's something for the Giroux haters though. Considering how amazingly important he has been to this team winning any games at all, it's entirely possible we might have had some of those 1-3 picks over the last few years if we didn't have Giroux on the team. So there is that.

Giroux is one guy on this team who actually makes the other players better. He can live without Voracek, and once Voracek is traded, I want to see how he does without his wingman. I suspect he will be fine, because he has so much skill that he actually can carry a team for a short while on his own. I also think he has character, but he might need another "lead dog" to help push him at time. I would say he's a 1A, not a 1 - if that makes any sense. He needs help, and this team gives him zilch.

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I'm not in the room, so I couldn't begin to say what the players need. A lot of "character" issues seem to magically disappear when the roster surrounding the guy, even if housed with a lot of miserable pricks, is much better in quality.

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1 hour ago, elmatus said:

 

But a locker room speech? Blargh. This isn't hollywood. 

 

I don't mean "locker room speeches". I'm talking about the overall tone of the team which, quite frankly, has been lacking during his tenure. I don't see a team that's hard to play against. I don't see a team that wants to win but also hates to lose. 

 

I see fragility and the tendency to collapse at the first sign of adversity. I see a team that almost always thinks they played well enough to win and a few bad bounces or a hot goalie have them in the basement of the league.

 

I don't pretend to have "the answer" I just know what I see on the ice - and it ain't pretty.

 

The team doesn't need someone to put them on their shoulders, it needs someone who will tell them they have to pick themselves up and go.

 

A patchwork team of guys who had never played together got to the Cup Final last year and a team meticulously composed over the course of years looks inept and uncaring.

 

I think that reflects poorly on leadership.

 

YMMV.

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2 minutes ago, radoran said:

I see fragility and the tendency to collapse at the first sign of adversity. I see a team that almost always thinks they played well enough to win and a few bad bounces or a hot goalie have them in the basement of the league.

 

I have watched SO much of that over and over again, the last decade.

 

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4 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

I have watched SO much of that over and over again, the last decade.

 

 

Some of it is "the modern pro athlete".

 

Even of they get a goose that lays Golden eggs, they make foie gras.

 

But then you look at what Vegas did...

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On 1/7/2019 at 9:12 PM, phlfly said:

Many years in row I was saying Giroux is soft and send him out. I was only one who has this opinion. All you guys are making fun of me . I have even replaced my avatar Giroux sucks . The guy is worst captain in flyers history. F him . I hope it's last year as Flyer !!!

I dont know what your history is with Giroux or what you have against him.  To be honest, I'm not totally against triaging him or ANY other player on the team.

 

I'm curious though, do you think Giroux is the best player on the team?  If not, who is?  If he's the best player on the team, why would you target him first?

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't mean "locker room speeches". I'm talking about the overall tone of the team which, quite frankly, has been lacking during his tenure. I don't see a team that's hard to play against. I don't see a team that wants to win but also hates to lose. 

 

I see fragility and the tendency to collapse at the first sign of adversity. I see a team that almost always thinks they played well enough to win and a few bad bounces or a hot goalie have them in the basement of the league.

 

I don't pretend to have "the answer" I just know what I see on the ice - and it ain't pretty.

 

The team doesn't need someone to put them on their shoulders, it needs someone who will tell them they have to pick themselves up and go.

 

A patchwork team of guys who had never played together got to the Cup Final last year and a team meticulously composed over the course of years looks inept and uncaring.

 

I think that reflects poorly on leadership.

 

YMMV.

 

I agree with all of that for sure. I just don't know that we can fault Giroux for it. It's becoming clearer and clearer with every game that his is a sisyphean task. He's made a habit of being an amazing player on a horribly lacklustre team. That's not his fault. If he had a PS4 controller for every other Flyer on the ice, then we could blame him. He doesn't of course.

 

I also find Giroux often get lambasted here because he isn't a "typical Flyer". I'm not directing this at you btw. I actually don't see this line of reasoning from you very much at all. But others here seem to just want a team of bruisers. It makes sense after all. That's the Flyer image that has remained for so long. Many of us are fans because of that image not in spite of it. So the idea of having a team that doesn't physically destroy every team they face seems like a team that lacks a certain quintessential bullies quality.

 

I get it. I'm a fan because of that style of play. At the same time, that doesn't mean players like Giroux who prefer finesse over power are somehow less of a player. In fact, the prototypical power forward as we all once knew it is virtually non existent on any team. There is no Lindros anymore. He's been replaced by Johnny Gaudreau, Nikita Kucherov, and Patrick Kane. Even semi hard hits make the highlight reels almost immediately, precisely because they've become so rare.

 

We can't fault Giroux for any of that (again, not you specifically). He may not push others around like a giant among boys, but he's still one of the best players of the last decade. I for one am happy he's that guy on the Flyers and not somewhere else.

Edited by elmatus
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G is soft and bad in defense , and he bad influence on team. As he is stop playing when things don't go well, so team react same way . He is just terrible captain. As its impossible to take his captain level it easy to trade for 1 pick and prospect . lets done with it's over for him in flyers uniform 

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6 hours ago, phlfly said:

G is soft and bad in defense , and he bad influence on team. As he is stop playing when things don't go well, so team react same way . He is just terrible captain. As its impossible to take his captain level it easy to trade for 1 pick and prospect . lets done with it's over for him in flyers uniform 

 

Funny how a guy this bad is one of THE top scorers in the entire NHL over the last decade.

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Let me give you a good example - John Tavares . He is as good Giroux but NY were really bad, all depended how he did play. 

 

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Posted (edited)

So guy has talent but don't fit into Flyers. 

But he is not talent enough to make other player better. Like Crosby or Ovechkin and many other 

Edited by phlfly

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13 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Some of it is "the modern pro athlete".

 

You may not be too far off the mark there. Just last night, a few hours after you posted that, I was racing online, and there was a guy who was beside himself because some girl had more followers than him on instagram, and his car was "totally better than her piece of sh|t" car. I thought he was going to have a panic attack, he got that worked up about it. I'm not kidding.

 

I try not to crap on a generation as a whole, but this one in particular seems a touch fragile at times. I happened across an article a couple of days ago about millennials being the "burnout generation" and it featured a group of interviewees who find things such as going to the post office, returning clothes to a store, and filing paperwork for insurance coverage to be anxiety inducing.

 

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12 hours ago, elmatus said:

I agree with all of that for sure. I just don't know that we can fault Giroux for it. It's becoming clearer and clearer with every game that his is a sisyphean task. He's made a habit of being an amazing player on a horribly lacklustre team. That's not his fault. If he had a PS4 controller for every other Flyer on the ice, then we could blame him. He doesn't of course.

 

If you don't fault the captain - at least a little - for leadership problems, who do you fault for it?

 

It comes back to Giroux not being "a problem" but also not, necessarily, "a solution" either. This isn't "G is suk" - it's looking at what the best move for the organization is.

 

Vancouver held onto the Sedins through it all and they got three rounds of playoffs since their Finals appearance in 2011 and a nice retirement ceremony last year. They both put up a lot of points. They both wore letters.

 

Is that what we have to look forward to?

 

If it is then why not get what they can get for him and reset for the future?

 

That's really not a determination we can make as fans - but I do think it's something the organization needs to be looking at.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, radoran said:

If it is then why not get what they can get for him and reset for the future?

 

 

That is a good question. If we're hitting the reset button -- which may be a good idea -- then definitely we need to trade Giroux for that to happen. Either that or we hope he declines quickly, because he can and has been singlehandedly responsible for this team's meager success on many occasions (see the 2017-18 season). So yes, if we're going full rebuild, we have to move him. Losing Giroux is tantamount to losing a remarkable amount of more games in a given season. That gives us better odds for top picks.

 

But if you're asking me whether I blame him for the team's misfortunes, I have to say I really don't. He simply can't mind control everyone on the ice. If he could, then sure, place the blame on him. But he can't.

 

Who do I blame? Well it would be more rational to me to blame coaching for one thing. Coaches are the ones who set parameters for what players are meant to do to function as a unit. They devise the plays. They promote muscle memory for key "small things" they want their players to do.

 

They offer an overall vision for things like whether the team starts trapping with the lead or engages in a heavy forecheck. They tell dmen under which circumstances they should carry the puck or go for an easy pass, not to mention which such dmen should be doing those things. They are meant to get the team working within a certain structure rather than as individuals each playing for themselves.

 

Now that said, Gordon isn't having any more success than Hakstol did. At some point, we have to contend with the idea the players on this current team are just not that good. Coaching is a big part of any team, but so is talent. Team Canada vs Team Barbados is going to churn out the same result no matter who's standing behind the bench.

 

There are so many players on this roster who have been underachieving for so long, it seems very rational to start wondering if maybe they were simply misvalued. Voracek isn't an elite guy. He's an opportunist. TK's got great wheels and a solid shot, but he needs help on the ice to be good. Couts is smart as hell and always at the right place at the right time, but he's slow, has poor hands, and his shot stinks. Ghost likely will never learn to play a proper defense. JVR is and always has been overrated. 

 

But Giroux? Giroux' a stud. He's the only one who well surpassed any expectations placed at his feet. If we look at his draft year with hindsight, there is every reason to suggest he is the best player who was drafted that year. And we got him almost by mistake at 22. 

 

So no, I can't blame him for the team's woes. I don't think it's fair to blame any one player for a team's continued problems. That's just not how a team sport like hockey works imo. 

 

As for trading him, there's really only reason to trade him, and that's to sign our team to the doldrums for the next number of years. The saddest part about all this is that may be the single best move Fletch could make in the long term.

 

I think it's also fair to blame Hexy and the brass. Why is Voracek still on this team? Why wasn't Simmonds moved at last year's deadline? Why Elliott of all people? Where's our 3C? Why did we keep an ineffective coaching staff for so long? These are GM decisions, and Hexy is no.1 on point for those.

 

His prospect pool may make up for it in the long run, but he clearly dropped the ball with regards to our current roster. To be fair, he was a building for the future kind of guy. The problem is his future remains too far out for most of us.

Edited by elmatus
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if changing coaches and gms arent working, what's next to look at? you have to look at the leaders, i get that fans are attached to players but if they are not working and bringing your team down, you have to have move on, otherwise, it's going to be the same problems every year, it's not fun seeing this team lose.

 

as some point, you have to make changes so you have a new direction, new voice, it creates a better culture to the team.

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6 minutes ago, briere48 said:

but if they are not working and bringing your team down

 

Sure, but Giroux is not bringing the team down. He's the only one in fact who is doing just the opposite on a consistent basis. He just can't do everything. No one player can, even a guy as talented as Giroux.

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29 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Losing Giroux is tantamount to losing a remarkable amount of more games in a given season.

 

The Islanders "lost" Tavares for nothing and are sitting one point out of a playoff spot as we speak.

 

"Losing Giroux" means they're not one point out of the basement of the league, but are last?

 

Seems like splitting hairs a bit, no?

 

32 minutes ago, elmatus said:

But if you're asking me whether I blame him for the team's misfortunes, I have to say I really don't. He simply can't mind control everyone on the ice. If he could, then sure, place the blame on him. But he can't.

 

Who do I blame? Well it would be more rational to me to blame coaching for one thing.

 

Again, not at all saying "it's all Giroux" but I certainly don't absolve "the best player" and the captain when it comes down to it.

 

Coaching is obviously an issue. And I would put more blame there - especially on the assistants - and on the upper management (Hextall included).

 

I just can't see where the team in this situation after seven years of his captaincy and it doesn't reflect upon him at all.

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I think when this kid arrives i will be more open to trading Giroux...he is the closest thing they have to replacing his type of play making ability...

 

 

...however i think he has at least two more years of school.

 

Giroux has the ability to make some these bums on this team better...however there aren't many bums on this team that make make Giroux better.

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39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I think when this kid arrives i will be more open to trading Giroux...he is the closest thing they have to replacing his type of play making ability...

 

 

...however i think he has at least two more years of school.

 

Giroux has the ability to make some these bums on this team better...however there aren't many bums on this team that make make Giroux better.

 

Pretty sure I've seen Patrick try that one. :D

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    • 9
      Post
      Come on... Giroux has 46 points in 42 games, and has a plus/minus of 0 on a team which is a collective -101.
    • 5
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      In case you haven't noticed...Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid...those guys all went 1st overall. Giroux didn't. Not even close. He's actually closer to a 2nd rounder. So instead of your constant Giroux is suk diatribe, how about giving the guy credit for being in the same conversation as those guys even though he was picked NOWHERE NEAR WHERE THEY WERE!
    • 4
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      It's not the only reason we make fun of you.    I'd move Voracek and Simmonds long before Giroux. 
    • 4
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      Ya, cause it's been a whole...7 or 8 months since he finished SECOND OVERALL in scoring. This team needs scoring, in case you haven't watched the 7 games they've been shutout this year, or the 14 they scored ONE goal. If someone offered Philly a no brainer package sure I'd take it. But Giroux is far from the guy that HAS to go.
    • 3
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      Not just "at" you, Howie, but I think the open question isn't whether he's one of the "problems."   From where I sit, it's "is he one of the solutions?"   And the corollary: is that "solution" a question of building around him (again) or using a potential haul from a trade to set a new foundation?   I think Giroux is a fantastic self-motivator. That's where "the Shift" came from. I don't know that he's a great motivator for others - and don't think he's shown much o
    • 3
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      Honestly, I would be willing to do that deal.      Your entire post is pretty spot on in my opinion.   I have read elsewhere that G should have his letter removed.  I think you (1) either keep him on the roster or (2) look to see if there is a contender willing to pay up for his services.  As you said, G is a fantastic hockey player and someone that will always be one of my favorites but not sure his "let the play do the talking" approach is something this team needs right now.   There
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