A Take on the Wayne Train

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, FD19372 said:

It is really scary to think that the smartest hockey guy in the organization was probably Ed Snider. There, I said it.

 

I'm very confused by Homer.  I still think maybe he had a stroke or more probably issues with post concussion symptoms somewhere around 2012.  His moves were so measured and intelligent in his first few years.  The Pronger trade was a gamble and losing those picks sure killed the team later, but it worked... temporarily.  But as opposed to learning from that one, he kept doubling down on the dumb and similar moves.  

 

There seems to be a serious chip on his shoulder refusal to confront mistakes issue with Homer as a manager and organization leader.  

Things seem personal and his moves seem to be reactions to perceptions rather than in assessing what he's got vs. what he needs.  

[King Knut]

Just now, murraycraven said:

 

 

not really sure they said that but okay...   Until Fletch puts his mark on the team I think, at best, this is inclusive.    

 

I'm not talking about Fletcher. I'm talking about Homer and Scott.

 

They fired the guy with the plan because they no longer liked his plan.  okay.  fine... so what was the plan they liked instead?

 

They didn't know.  THey had no one in mind and were essentially be waiting to be told what the plan should be.

 

So in saying that we're waiting to see what Uncle Fletch is going to do, we're admitting that they had no plan and are relying on Fletcher to come up with one.  

 

Newsflash, if nothing happens before the deadline, then there was LITERALLY NO USE IN FIRING HEXTALL.  

If the big plan is "trade simmonds for picks and try to sign Panarin and Karlsson"... then WTF did they fire Hextall for since that was likely what we would have seen from him given similar lack of progress by now?

 

Face it, it was dumb and had no point and is a glaring example of piss poor corporate management.  

[murraycraven]

21 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm not talking about Fletcher. I'm talking about Homer and Scott.

 

They fired the guy with the plan because they no longer liked his plan.  okay.  fine... so what was the plan they liked instead?

 

They didn't know.  THey had no one in mind and were essentially be waiting to be told what the plan should be.

 

So in saying that we're waiting to see what Uncle Fletch is going to do, we're admitting that they had no plan and are relying on Fletcher to come up with one.  

 

Newsflash, if nothing happens before the deadline, then there was LITERALLY NO USE IN FIRING HEXTALL.  

If the big plan is "trade simmonds for picks and try to sign Panarin and Karlsson"... then WTF did they fire Hextall for since that was likely what we would have seen from him given similar lack of progress by now?

 

Face it, it was dumb and had no point and is a glaring example of piss poor corporate management.  

 

 

Here is the thing - Hextall was fired.  Get over it and move on.... His grand plan lead to this dumpster fire currently on the ice.   This is his team.  Kudos to him for looking like he drafted well (time will tell) and getting the cap under control.  But to pretend that Hextall's plan and patience was working is fool's gold.  

 

Three of the biggest bitching points from fans is from Hextall - Voracheck, Weise and JvR (not to mention hiring a completely unknown over his head out of college).   All Hextall's doing and he does not get a pass for being the Asst GM when McDud was signed either.  His product on the ice is garbage.   

 

Hextall has moved on...  time to dry your eyes and move on with him.  Homer is not going anywhere as much as I would like to see him get sent into retirement.  It is what it is at this point and hopefully Fletch is going to make the right moves.   

 

The fanboy love for Hextall is mind boggling to me...   he failed at his job and was removed.   Good riddance...

[murraycraven]

30 minutes ago, King Knut said:

then WTF did they fire Hextall for since that was likely what we would have seen from him given similar lack of progress by now?

 

 

bc there is no way in hell Hextall would have made those deals.  His entire plan was wading in mediocrity while telling the fanbase this is a true playoff team - THAT is a total joke. Just keep kicking the can down the road and wasting G's best years. 

 

Do you really think there will be no moves at all by Fletcher by the deadline?   Really, you might need a new magic 8-ball or at least some strong duct tape. 

[King Knut]

7 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Here is the thing - Hextall was fired.  Get over it and move on.... His grand plan lead to this dumpster fire currently on the ice.   This is his team.  Kudos to him for looking like he drafted well (time will tell) and getting the cap under control.  But to pretend that Hextall's plan and patience was working is fool's gold.  

 

Three of the biggest bitching points from fans is from Hextall - Voracheck, Weise and JvR (not to mention hiring a completely unknown over his head out of college).   All Hextall's doing and he does not get a pass for being the Asst GM when McDud was signed either.  His product on the ice is garbage.   

 

Hextall has moved on...  time to dry your eyes and move on with him.  Homer is not going anywhere as much as I would like to see him get sent into retirement.  It is what it is at this point and hopefully Fletch is going to make the right moves.   

 

The fanboy love for Hextall is mind boggling to me...   he failed at his job and was removed.   Good riddance...

 

Hextall's grand plan hasn't hit the ice yet.  And I don't care about him getting fired beyond the fact that it has only served to confuse and confound the product on the ice more.  We pretend that these guys aren't human beings and that psychology doesn't come into play.

 

The team gets astoundingly worse without Hextall, and somehow it's further evidence for you that they're just not talented?  That makes no sense.  Rather, what it say to me is that they are vulnerable (as any of us would be) to the lack of leadership within their organization. 

 

If you've ever had a good boss and a bad boss, you've likely seen how a team can work well together and move in the right direction and how they can do the opposite.   

 

Hakstol was a bad coach and a terrible idea for the NHL right now.  For that and his refusal to do anything about it after it became painfully obvious, I could give a rip about Hextall being the GM anymore.  

 

But all this talk about the team not being talented and needing to be blown up and Hextall's strategy not working when four of his recent draftees kinda blew everyone's socks off at the Worlds a few weeks ago and the farm system actually having players it can call up for the first time since probably Giroux, just smacks of Philly Fan reactionism and blame throwing.  

 

If you ever looked at what Nolan Patrick could do with the puck on his stick and then looked at what Hakstol was coaching him to do (essentially play more like Lehtera) then you know why Hakstol was and probably remains this team's problem. 

 

They need to exercise four years of his demons from their minds and in many ways learn how to play NHL hockey again.  

 

Look at the way Simmer plays hockey now vs. how he did four years ago?  Is that because he's 30 or because he was coached to be boring, safe and never attack for a long long time?  

 

It's not fanboy love for Hextall, it's cold hard analytical hatred for Homer that's fueling me right now.  It's not that Hextall's gone... it's how it was done.  It's that it was done before Hakstol being forced out (when Hakstol was obviously the problem to ANYONE halfway hockey minded).  

 

I said at the time that if Hextall was out because he simply refused to fire Hakstol, then so be it.  And in theory, Hextall being out because he couldn't see the Hakstol problem is just and right and would need to happen no matter what if that problem wasn't corrected.

 

But it came out that it was never about Hakstol.  Homer never got that far.  Homer never got as far as considering what the problem was and what Hextall was or wasn't doing that he needed to be fired over.  If Homer and Scott had come out there that day and said, "This team needs a new direction and Ron Hextall refused to change direction, she we fired him... AND HERE'S WHAT THAT NEW DIRECTION SHOULD INCLUDE..." that would have been one thing. 

 

But the "new direction" apparently was just, "we're not winning, so we think we need to do something and this guy is telling us we can't so we fired him."  Otherwise known as REALITY.

 

I'm going to be pissed at Hextall for not firing Hakstol last summer for a long long time.

I'm going to be pissed at Homer forever because since 2012 he has repeatedly shown that he has NO IDEA what he's doing but that he also has NO IDEA that he has NO IDEA what he's doing.

 

He's the living embodiment of the Dunning Kruger Complex and I'm effing sick of it. 

 

What little we have learned is that it seems Scott and Homer fired Hextall because Hextall refused to acquire players that were simply not acquireable.    He didn't spend to the cap on long term fat contacts last summer because he knew better players were going to be available this summer.  He didn't trade Sanheim and Simmer for Karlsson because as we now know, Ottawa simply refused to trade Karlsson to a team in the east.  He signed JVR and not Tavares because as we now know, Tavares was only ever going to sign in Toronto to go home.  We saw it happen when he was simply beaten to the punch on Stastny. 

 

On the other hand, I'll admit, we'll never know why he didn't have interest in Grabner and why he was so devoted to poor coaching in Hakstol, Murphy and Lappy (btw, no one else has fired Lappy yet and at this point, the PK isn't that bad anymore).

 

But he didn't sign Bernier to be the 6th goalie under contract?  Is that why he was fired?  He didn't trade Sanheim for a crappy backup like Mrazek to be that 6th goalie under contract?  

 

Again my point isn't that Hextall didn't deserve to be fired it was that the reasons he was apparently fired for were STUPID REASONS and not the very legitimate reasons a President might have for firing him (aka Hakstol, Lappy, Murphy).  

 

I'm not mad Hextall's gone.  I'm mad that Hextall's gone for the wrong reasons because that tells me the guys making those calls HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE DOING.  

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

28 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

bc there is no way in hell Hextall would have made those deals.  His entire plan was wading in mediocrity while telling the fanbase this is a true playoff team - THAT is a total joke. Just keep kicking the can down the road and wasting G's best years. 

 

Do you really think there will be no moves at all by Fletcher by the deadline?   Really, you might need a new magic 8-ball or at least some strong duct tape. 

 

Again, this assertion that Hextall wouldn't make deadline moves or play kids (both of which seem to be a thing in fans heads) is actually the opposite of the evidence.

 

He made a lot of deadline deals on expiring contracts and got great deals for them.  He traded a 30 goal scorer in Schenn and got two of the most heralded players in the world juniors last week for it.  He played Provo and TK and Patrick when they were teenagers.  He gave Vrobyov a shot out of camp.

 

Do you think if they were really out of playoff position as far as they are now, he wouldn't listen to deals on Simmer or Jake or anyone?  

 

If you think that, you're simply not paying attention to what he actually did do. 

 

He didn't make those trades before the season started and he didn't start trying to sell off the kids for win now talent within the first third of a mediocre season.  That's why Homer fired him.  

 

That was made clear.  

 

The real problem was Hakstol was coaching the talented players Hextall was assembling to play against their skill sets and against the way the league in general was heading and Hextall failed to recognize that.

 

Those players are still now trying to figure out just what they're supposed to be doing at the NHL level.  Gordon is slowly trying to steer a ship headed for rocks and the things breaking apart.  

 

But look at the confusion and turmoil in this organization from the top coming down to the players... is it really any wonder that they're playing like confused kids?   

 

Turning the ship around is going to take a long time at this point and it needed to start happening two years ago when it became painfully apparent to most of us that Hakstol was simply not an NHL coach.  FOR THAT, Hextall needs to have been made accountable.

 

But the reasons Homer has given... and firing a guy in November for trades that he theoretically would have refused to make in February MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.  For not spending to the cap on players that were NOT AVAILABLE makes absolutely NO SENSE.

 

Fire Hextall... great.  If he could start to assess good coaching talent, he'll do well elsewhere IMHO, but the point isn't that firing Hextall was bad, it was that firing Hextall, saying his whole philosophy was flawed because you want to WIN NOW and then replacing that philosophy with more and more confusion, no game plan and zero moves to actually "WIN NOW" is purely Idiotic.

 

It tells me that Homer isn't a good hockey brain and that Scott is just a purely terrible manager altogether.

 

If Scott had said, "We need butts in seats, homer get me butts in seats" and Homer said, "Hextall, I think Hakstol's a bad coach and here's why... do something about it because the fans know it and they need to know we care that they're not happy."  Then that would have been one thing.  

 

But that's not what happened.  What happened seemed to have everything to do with ego and nothing to do with hockey or how the NHL works.  

 

And if we hadn't seem Homer display an equal level of confused reasoning get the team into the mess he hired Hextall to get him out of (something Hextall actually did accomplish btw) then I wouldn't be so livid with Homer.  But we did see that.  We have the track record of knee jerk idiotic reactionary moves based on rage and attitude and ego rather than reasoning and reality.

 

Homer is a hot head who doesn't know what he's doing.  The NHL isn't just bad at taking care of their players with brain injuries... it keeps trusting their judgement over wiser cooler heads repeatedly.  

 

Homer is a buffoon and he's made a joke of this organization.

 

 

 

 

[Jam1986]

They have him going to Nashville Montreal or jets. What brings us the most.

[Fuzz]

2 minutes ago, Jam1986 said:

They have him going to Nashville Montreal or jets. What brings us the most.

If nothing else, it at least gives Simmer a shot at winning the Cup.  It's a shame, but we just can't lose him without getting something decent back.  If he would accept a contract for somewhere around 4.5AAV for 3 years they would keep him.

[Jam1986]

I say no. 30 getting old.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Jam1986 said:

They have him going to Nashville Montreal or jets. What brings us the most.

 

I rather take some of the Preds prospects than Canadiens...i don't think they would give us Ryan Poehling but if they do that is who i would want.

 

Preds have guys they would move first i think.

[King Knut]

On 1/11/2019 at 10:25 AM, FD19372 said:

He may be playing hurt, which describes some of the floating. However, I don't think he has the Voracek "dog it and I'll get paid anyway" mentality. He would be a good asset for a team that needs a physical, in front of the net presence, on a team making a playoff and Cup run

 

Jake has 38 pts

Wayne has 22

 

Jake plays 18:27 a night

Simmer okays 16:22

 

Jake is a god awful -14

But Simmer is a nearly just as terrible -12

 

Their Corsi is about even exceptnon the PP where Jake’s is 2% better. 

 

Jake’s expected goals for us significantly better, but I’ll grant that Simmer’s expected goals against is significantly better than Jake’s...

 

Which is all just just to say that I’m confused as to where this perception—that Voracek dogs it because he’s getting paid and doesn’t care—actually comes from. 

 

I supoose if i could cede that idea is if one assumes Jake is just a significantly better hockey player who is “playing down” to what amounts to well above Wayne’s level. 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

If nothing else, it at least gives Simmer a shot at winning the Cup.  It's a shame, but we just can't lose him without getting something decent back.  If he would accept a contract for somewhere around 4.5AAV for 3 years they would keep him.

 

They can trade him now to give him a shot and try to bring him back in July but I would really like to see them take a crack at Panarin. 

[FD19372]

9 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Which is all just just to say that I’m confused as to where this perception—that Voracek dogs it because he’s getting paid and doesn’t care—actually comes from. 

Watch them both backcheck. I'll take Simmonds any day for that reason alone, and twice on Sunday. Plus, I will scrutinize what Voracek does. For AT LEAST on reason, he makes a million dollars more than Simmonds.

[King Knut]

4 hours ago, FD19372 said:

Watch them both backcheck. I'll take Simmonds any day for that reason alone, and twice on Sunday. Plus, I will scrutinize what Voracek does. For AT LEAST on reason, he makes a million dollars more than Simmonds.

 

He makes 3.5 million more than simmonds,  but he’s worth every penny in the market of today’s NHL and Simmonds is grossly underpaid.  

 

Simmonds May appear the back check better, but the numbers don’t show it making a horribly significant difference. 

 

 

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

He makes 3.5 million more than simmonds,  but he’s worth every penny in the market of today’s NHL and Simmonds is grossly underpaid.  

 

Simmonds May appear the back check better, but the numbers don’t show it making a horribly significant difference. 

 

 

I'm just saying (and maybe I didn't articulate it well  in my prior statement ) it seems like Voracek is one of the organization's 'main men', who plays a lazy game at times, and Simmonds hustles, backchecks and does other things than score. Voracek, to me, is not worth what he is making and Simmonds is underpaid, so he is easier to move. I think Giroux makes Voracek a much better player than he actually is.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

He makes 3.5 million more than simmonds,  but he’s worth every penny in the market of today’s NHL and Simmonds is grossly underpaid.  

 

Simmonds May appear the back check better, but the numbers don’t show it making a horribly significant difference. 

 

 

 

I have a solution trade them both...

[flyercanuck]

On 1/11/2019 at 10:09 AM, murraycraven said:

 

 

People are pissed at JvR - be pissed at Hexy for totally f'ing up this scenario.   

 

 It's funny how many people (I'm not saying you) complained that Hextall didn't go after any players that would make the Flyers better now...yet when he signs the 2nd best UFA of the season people complain about it. And I'm no JVR fan.

 

 I also think that signing was likely due to pressure being put on Hextall to do something NOW. I mean does JVR actually remind you of a Hextall type player? Doesn't he go for the 200 foot type? JVR is more of a 30 footer.

 

 I also think he's better than he's looked this season.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

14 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I rather take some of the Preds prospects than Canadiens...i don't think they would give us Ryan Poehling but if they do that is who i would want.

 

Preds have guys they would move first i think.

 

I highly doubt they trade Poehling...they love him as a prospect.

[King Knut]

7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I have a solution trade them both...

 

That might negatively affect the point totals. 

[King Knut]

On 1/11/2019 at 12:17 PM, murraycraven said:

 

 

Here is the thing - Hextall was fired.  Get over it and move on.... His grand plan lead to this dumpster fire currently on the ice.   This is his team.  Kudos to him for looking like he drafted well (time will tell) and getting the cap under control.  But to pretend that Hextall's plan and patience was working is fool's gold.  

 

Three of the biggest bitching points from fans is from Hextall - Voracheck, Weise and JvR (not to mention hiring a completely unknown over his head out of college).   All Hextall's doing and he does not get a pass for being the Asst GM when McDud was signed either.  His product on the ice is garbage.   

 

Hextall has moved on...  time to dry your eyes and move on with him.  Homer is not going anywhere as much as I would like to see him get sent into retirement.  It is what it is at this point and hopefully Fletch is going to make the right moves.   

 

The fanboy love for Hextall is mind boggling to me...   he failed at his job and was removed.   Good riddance...

 

Don’t confuse fanboy love with hatred if Homer as compared to Homer, Hextall is a bloody GM genius. 

 

 If you’re mad at signing two of the better players at their positions on utterly reasonable contracts for their production, then I don’t know what to tell you.  

 

We all want Tavares and McDavid, but it turns out they’re hard to get. 

 

I’m mad at Hextall but I’m more mad at everyone  (especially Homer) who isn’t mad at Hextall for the right reasons.  Weise ain’t a good reason to fire the guy who saved your franchise from the hell Homer dug it Into. 

 

What is a good reason is Hakstol.  Should have fired Hak two years ago.  

 

Youre mad mad at him for Weise and I don’t think Weise matters in the least.  The guy who made Ghost human, Provo mediocre, Patrick meh and Benched TK for being good and played Mac and Manning over Sanheim because they WOULD screw up and Sanheim only just MIGHT screw up... THATs the reason to rail on Hextall. 

 

I’m going to defend Jake and JVR and even Weise til the cow comes home because every time you folks bitch about those guys you’re taking your eye off the ball and deluding yourself that this team isn’t talented.  That delusion has led to many Flyers winning cups on other teams and I’m rather sick of that. 

 

This team is extremely talented.  They have been extremely poorly coached for 6 years. 

 

Some people don’t think the coach is that important.  To those folks I will point out that the Islanders now lead the metro AFTER losing their captain and one of the best players in the league. 

 

Coaching is extremely important and Hextall picked a bad one but what’s worse, he stuck with him when it was supposedly time to start winning. 

 

Of course Homer fired a GREAT one and replaced him with Craig friggin’ Berube. 

 

Lack of Talent on the ice and on the bench is NOT this team’s problem.   Behind that bench is where the problem lies.  

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

That might negatively affect the point totals. 

 

Depends on what you get for them...or with the money spent on them...

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Depends on what you get for them...or with the money spent on them...

 

Youre not going to get “better than them” in a trade.  

 

Its a decent UFA crop, but Fletcher has enough money to get.m better than those two (Panarin Panarin Panarin) AND keep them. 

 

They could literally resign everyone they want to keep,  bring up kids like Misha, Germ, Frosty, Myers AND still afford Panarin and Karlsson if they wanted.  Not sure Karlsson’s the best use of cash, but THEY COULD. That’s the point. 

 

Also, an actual good coach would make them all look better.  

 

If you can get greatness, sure trade the JVR and Voracek. I’m not attached to them or under the delusion they can become even better super mega stars, i’m just trying to be realistic and being realistic tells me, they’re actual good players... better

 

Well, not Weise.  I just don’t even care about Weise. 

 

My main point  is that this team does not need to be blown up and start another rebuild. Espousing that is pure insanity as far as I’m concerned.  They need an NHL coach. That’s going to go a long way.  

 

Again, look at the Islanders.  They lose Tavares, gain Trotz and get significantly better.  

 

The flyers are much much more talented roster than the Islanders. They simply need direction. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

In terms of Simmonds, my hope is that the Flyers can find a way to get either Dante Fabbro from Nashville or Jack Roslovic from Winnipeg. Montreal really doesn't have anything that stands out.

 

I know Fletcher said he thinks the Flyers will be relatively quiet, but I suspect there's going to be heavy interest in Gudas and with Morin coming back and with Meyers due a call up, he might be the odd man out and I think he could also return a very good package.  We can talk MacTard all we want, but that's going to require parting with something or eating significant salary to have someone take him off the Flyers hands.

 

As for Voracek, I doubt he gets moved. That kind of salary, cap hit and contract length is something that usually takes an off season to move.  

 

The Flyers could be one of the more instrumental players at the trade deadline and if Fletcher plays his cards right, he could definitely reshape the Flyers franchise in a couple of moves.  

[Cheesesteak]

On 1/11/2019 at 11:56 AM, King Knut said:

 

I'm very confused by Homer.  I still think maybe he had a stroke or more probably issues with post concussion symptoms somewhere around 2012. 

When did he have that bike accident? 

[Fuzz]

11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I have a solution trade them both...

Trading Jake Voracek would be almost impossible at this point.