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Howie58

A Take on the Wayne Train

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Greetings:

 

I saw this on Yahoo; basically, if Simmonds' days are numbered, the sooner the exit, the better.  Apparently, his agents may be forcing Fletcher's hands.

 

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What's sad is that if I had to choose between Simmonds and JVR, I'd take the former. Maybe we ship JVR out...would not shed any tears.  

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I wouldn't mind either... our version of JVR is the same as 1.0. Don't know what he was like in Toronto, but it looks like he hasn't changed since we traded him for Luke Schenn straight up. He's been a disappointment for us in just about every angle—coming, going, taking up space on the roster...

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2 hours ago, Howie58 said:

What's sad is that if I had to choose between Simmonds and JVR, I'd take the former. Maybe we ship JVR out...would not shed any tears.  

 

I'm with you 100%. Simmonds should have been traded last year. Full stop.

 

JVR was a fun gamble, but it hasn't paid off, and I have very strong doubts it ever will. If this were Hexy still, I'd say there's no chance he's being traded. Hexy loved to hang on to his pets way longer than he should. Fletch I dunno. What moves he makes this season will dictate his effectiveness almost immediately imo. 

 

I would also trade Voracek and Ghost. Yep, trade all the things.

Edited by elmatus

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It maybe be a stretch but if they could just get a 1st rounder for him i would be happy.

 

Someone will want him for their playoff push.

 

I am just crossing my fingers a team wants Jake too....i see you over there Coyotes with some nice picks and prospects...you see us dangling...not on the ice of course just Jake...talk to me...

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You forgot G ....

2 sticks and a half a puck ...

he is a big part of the problem....

I M O ...

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7 hours ago, mkscrewy said:

I wouldn't mind either... our version of JVR is the same as 1.0. Don't know what he was like in Toronto, but it looks like he hasn't changed since we traded him for Luke Schenn straight up. He's been a disappointment for us in just about every angle—coming, going, taking up space on the roster...

 

I think JVR was playing for that contract when he put up all those nice numbers with Toronto last.
I think we've all seen this song n dance before.... player is sleepy throughout his tenure, contract comes due, plays lights out, gets paid big...goes back to sleep....

Sad but true...and I think that's what JVR is...an injury prone, contract playin for type player.

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As for Wayne Simmonds....just throwing this out there (and NO, I didn't hear this anywhere...just me thinking aloud based on what I think the Lightning need and what the Flyers could use)

Flyers send
Wayne Simmonds (30 yrs, LW/RW, 3.9M cap, pending UFA)
Christian Folin (27 yrs, Defense, 800K cap, pending UFA)

2019 5th rounder

Lightning send

JT Miller (25 yrs, C/LW/RW, 5.25M cap hit, under contract for 4 years more after this one)
2019 4th rounder
A middling type minors defenseman, or maybe two of any of these three (these guys may be blocked at the NHL level due to the Bolts being deep at that position)
---Dominik Masin (22, 800K NHL contract, pending RFA)
--Ben Thomas (22, 700K NHL contract, pending RFA_
--Matthew Spencer (21, 730K NHL contract, one more year after this one)

All are midsized defenders with good skating ability who simply have NOT had any real chance with the Lightning at the NHL level.

 

My thinking is, the Bolts could use a player like Simmonds who is skilled AND is nasty, to put them over the top to finally get their Cup.
Wayne could THEN go off and test the FA market afterwards, OR, maybe the Bolts can convince him to stay on, maybe on a 4 yr, 12M contract (3M per), to try and win another Cup...and even though he would be taking a bit of paycut, the Florida no-state tax would help him that way.....or again, he could just walk and find his bigger payday elsewhere.

Remembering the Bolts have a tight cap to manage in the coming seasons.

Chistian Folin will provide the Bolts with a larger sized defender to cushion their ranks for the playoffs in case one of their regulars goes down. He has a good shot, wouldn't have to play top minutes in TB, can skate reasonably well, and has NHL experience over even guys on the team like Cernak and Sergachev.

Both Simmonds and Folin would also represent some cap relief, because going Philly's way would be 

JT Miller, and his 5.25M, but who is a young, versatile, play-anywhere forward with some sandpaper....and he would better fit in with the up n coming younger Flyers players. He would be around till he is 29 in Philly, and his 5.25M is probably better than any similar FA signing the Flyers could make.... I.E. they likely would have to overpay to get someone similar and with as much NHL experience in there.

 

Flyers would upgrade their pick from a 5th to a 4th (Bolts no longer have a 2nd, and I am sure would like to keep their 1st and 3rd...and it would NOTmake sense to part with a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd anyways for pending UFA's)

And the Flyers could get one, maybe two of the mentioned minors defensemen who still have room to grow but right now, are locked into the minors due to TB just not having slots or ice time for them at the NHL level......and I suspect those three guys are going to be traded away for help NOW by TB anyways...why not Philly who could certainly use more young defenders, as not ALL are going to pan out, but with quantity and a bit of quality here, they have a chance at least one will.

Anyways, I like playing armchair GM this time of year, and I think of all sorts of scenarios where my teams can help themselves, BUT, still be realistic enough so that the other team is getting somethin out of it as well....after all, real trades, the good ones anyways, offer value to both sides.

And despite what some Flyers fans may think of Simmonds skillset now, I think , for the right team, he can still offer quite a bit....especially a club ready to win now rather than later.
 

Edited by TropicalFruitGirl26
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13 hours ago, intheslot said:

You forgot G ....

2 sticks and a half a puck ...

he is a big part of the problem....

I M O ...

That would be a great return for a top 10 NHL player.

 

This team would be completely unwatchable if not for Giroux. 

 

Takes like this read like trolling, is that your intent? 

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13 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

I think JVR was playing for that contract when he put up all those nice numbers with Toronto last.
I think we've all seen this song n dance before.... player is sleepy throughout his tenure, contract comes due, plays lights out, gets paid big...goes back to sleep....

Sad but true...and I think that's what JVR is...an injury prone, contract playin for type player.

 

I'm not particularly a fan of JVR or his style - he shows flashes at points, but also has a tendency to float a bit.

 

That said, his production in Tronno was pretty consistent year to year for the past six seasons:

12-13 18 goals, 32 points in 48 games (projects to 31g 55p)
13-14 30 goals, 61 points in 80 games

14-15 27 goals, 56 points in 82

15-16 14 goals, 29 points in 40 games (projects to 29g, 59p)
16-17 29 goals, 62 points in 82 games

17-18 36 goals, 54 points in 81 games

 

It's really not unreasonable to think he could (and should) post 30/60 numbers. Because he has.

 

Of course, when you put him on the third line with a rookie center to start the season, that just may have an effect on his production.

 

For example, when moved to the top line against Dallas last night all he accomplished was the game winning goal and an assist on the other goal the team scored.

 

I mean, he's no Zach Parise, but that's probably a Good Thing. 😎

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1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

This team would be completely unwatchable if not for Giroux. 

 

It's unwatchable WITH Giroux.....no sense in trading him unless it is a HUGE return.

 

48 points in 44 games...2nd in goals scored......nah i am going to worry about some of the other stiffs on this team.

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1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

I'm not particularly a fan of JVR or his style - he shows flashes at points, but also has a tendency to float a bit.

 

That said, his production in Tronno was pretty consistent year to year for the past six seasons:

12-13 18 goals, 32 points in 48 games (projects to 31g 55p)
13-14 30 goals, 61 points in 80 games

14-15 27 goals, 56 points in 82

15-16 14 goals, 29 points in 40 games (projects to 29g, 59p)
16-17 29 goals, 62 points in 82 games

17-18 36 goals, 54 points in 81 games

 

It's really not unreasonable to think he could (and should) post 30/60 numbers. Because he has.

 

Of course, when you put him on the third line with a rookie center to start the season, that just may have an effect on his production.

 

 

 

Fair enough.
I guess he is just the type of player that really DOES rely on others to elevate HIM rather then him doing that for other players.
He had better forwards to play with in Toronto, top to bottom....not so in Philadelphia....which begs the question then....
Who thought he would be a good fit with the Flyers?

 

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1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

I'm not particularly a fan of JVR or his style - he shows flashes at points, but also has a tendency to float a bit.

 

That said, his production in Tronno was pretty consistent year to year for the past six seasons:

12-13 18 goals, 32 points in 48 games (projects to 31g 55p)
13-14 30 goals, 61 points in 80 games

14-15 27 goals, 56 points in 82

15-16 14 goals, 29 points in 40 games (projects to 29g, 59p)
16-17 29 goals, 62 points in 82 games

17-18 36 goals, 54 points in 81 games

 

It's really not unreasonable to think he could (and should) post 30/60 numbers. Because he has.

 

Of course, when you put him on the third line with a rookie center to start the season, that just may have an effect on his production.

 

For example, when moved to the top line against Dallas last night all he accomplished was the game winning goal and an assist on the other goal the team scored.

 

I mean, he's no Zach Parise, but that's probably a Good Thing. 😎

 

 

Truth.

 

Everyone knows what JvR is...   Great hands and scores goals in the dirty areas.   People say he is soft but he plays in the toughest areas of the ice (Like Simmonds).   He does float and that is par for the course with JvR (I see NoPa floating a lot as well).  When you play him with actual talented players he is a very good player.   

 

Simmonds - I love the guy but there is no way I am dishing out a long term deal for him.  I wish him the best and hope he gets paid but I really don't want Fletch going long term here.   With Simmonds there is a lot of mileage and I understand his intangibles.   

 

People are pissed at JvR - be pissed at Hexy for totally f'ing up this scenario.   

Edited by murraycraven

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6 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

DOES rely on others to elevate HIM rather then him doing that for other players

 

 

Same goes for Simmonds.   He is not going to carry the puck and make plays by himself.

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5 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

I guess he is just the type of player that really DOES rely on others to elevate HIM rather then him doing that for other players.
He had better forwards to play with in Toronto, top to bottom....not so in Philadelphia....which begs the question then....
Who thought he would be a good fit with the Flyers?

 

He is absolutely a complimentary piece. And there is certainly a degree of familiarity breeding contempt for him as his "floating" becomes more pronounced when you see him every game.

 

But, again, when they put him in a position to succeed - as they did on the first line last night - he responded and produced the game winning goal and two points. I never understood the idea of bringing him in and slotting him on the third line, especially with a rookie center.

 

Clearly Ron Hextall thought he was a good add - and he was arguably (and probably) the #2 available UFA last offseason (after Tavares). Really remains to be seen how it all plays out.

 

4 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

Simmonds - I love the guy but there is no way I am dishing out a long term deal for him.  I wish him the best and hope he gets paid but I really don't want Fletch going long term here.   With Simmonds there is a lot of mileage and I understand his intangibles.   

 

In the end, I think he's going to be dealt. He would have more value for the team long-term in that regard (whatever haul they can get for him) than keeping him on a squad that's not showing any signs of seriously competing in the near future.

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1 minute ago, radoran said:

He is absolutely a complimentary piece. And there is certainly a degree of familiarity breeding contempt for him as his "floating" becomes more pronounced when you see him every game.

He may be playing hurt, which describes some of the floating. However, I don't think he has the Voracek "dog it and I'll get paid anyway" mentality. He would be a good asset for a team that needs a physical, in front of the net presence, on a team making a playoff and Cup run

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People need to ask themselves what they want from this Flyer team. Do we want to watch our favorite players continue to wallow in the mud playing uninspired hockey, or do we want a team with an actual plan to win a cup in the future. Keep in mind there has never been an actual rebuild under Hextall, just a box of bandaids trying to sneak into the playoffs year after year. He held on to his picks and prospects, but how many of those mid round picks are ever going to be leaders in a cup run?  If you think this team is a goalie and a stud dman away, you need to rethink your evaluations of the current roster and prospect pool. Drafting in the top 2 for the next 2 years would be a good first step. 

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2 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

He may be playing hurt, which describes some of the floating. However, I don't think he has the Voracek "dog it and I'll get paid anyway" mentality. He would be a good asset for a team that needs a physical, in front of the net presence, on a team making a playoff and Cup run

 

We have seen enough of JVR to know that he does have a tendency to float at times.

 

I absolutely agree that he does get into the tough areas and does score the "dirty" goals you need.

 

I think his "floating" is more on the defensive side of the ledger.

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I think JVR was an okay gamble. I think someone was going to offer him a contract similar to what he signed, and it's not like he hasn't had a decent amount of success in the league. We needed scoring, he has done that in the past, it made sense to a large extent.

 

He's a complimentary piece as others have suggested. He's an opportunist who can bury a goal or two if he happens to be playing with the right players. I think he'd probably do well with Giroux for instance, but then really who wouldn't?

 

I have no interest in keeping him around though. I wasn't enthused about the signing, though I understood it, and at this point I sort of see him as exactly what I figured he'd be. I think he should be traded this year while we can still get something of value for him. If he's allowed to float for the rest of this season and then into next season, his value will plummet more than it already has.

 

This is a similar situation to Simmonds last season. There comes a time when it's best to cut ties and take what you can get. Hexy was terrible at that. I can only hope Fletch has a better handle on that sort of thing. He's got work to do.

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28 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

. Keep in mind there has never been an actual rebuild under Hextall, just a box of bandaids trying to sneak into the playoffs year after year. He held on to his picks and prospects, but how many of those mid round picks are ever going to be leaders in a cup run? 

 I did say something similar to this ,  though my take was trying to rebuild and compete aren't really compatible.

 

Drafting at the top of this year's draft, if we're to believe ISS is a player like...Claude Giroux, except maybe less physical.

The kid from Finland is probably what this team needs, but is that the team's philosophy ? I seem to remember reading BPA is how this team drafts, so should we luck into the top pick it would still presumably be Hughes, yes ?

 

The last two years the Flyers have had 2 first round picks in in the first 20 so that's already a good start.

Is there a McDavid in next year's draft ? I haven't read or heard that. 

These kids don't develop in a linear fashion so who knows where the kid who becomes the player will come from. 

 

I think Morgan Frost, Joel Farabee and Jay OBrien are all going to be good NHL players.  I think Jay O'Brien especially could be a leader on a team that wins cups.

That kid, provided he can be injury free, is my type of hockey player. Smart, fast, fearless and confident in himself.

 

I really hate that Hextall was shown the door before Hakstol.  

 

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On 1/10/2019 at 10:49 AM, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I saw this on Yahoo; basically, if Simmonds' days are numbered, the sooner the exit, the better.  Apparently, his agents may be forcing Fletcher's hands.

 

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    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.

 

What's sad is that if I had to choose between Simmonds and JVR, I'd take the former. Maybe we ship JVR out...would not shed any tears.  

 

At this point, I wish Wayne well, and will be sad when he's kicking out butts in another Uniform, but I don't need to see him in Flyer Orange anymore. 

 

I loved him as a player.  Flyers platonic ideal perhaps... heart and soul of the room perhaps... but this room's heart and soul is rotten now.  Fresh blood is needed.  Surging pumping blood that hates losing and Wayne... he simply doesn't hate losing enough anymore.  None of them do.  Think about it, Wayne has never really won.  He was shipped from LA before they started winning and came here just in time for the crap years.  He's never been on a winner.  He's had a career of moral victories.  

 

I'm sick of moral victories.  They don't count.  

 

I don't think it's a choice between him and JVR.  JVR showed what he could be doing last night if given the time and the minutes.  

 

That's not to say I wouldn't trade him if there was a good deal on the table, but wtf is a good deal for JVR going to look like?  

 

Everyone including Scott who talks about making these trades has got to start thinking realistically.  You can't just make good players be on your team.  There's way more to it than that.

 

Trade Wayne, resign him... the thing you need more than anything is some leadership that hates losing more than he loves breathing.  That will need to be a coach for sure, but it will also need to be some players.  Frankly, they don't even need to be good players (though that wouldn't hurt either) they need to be the Max Talbot, Mike Richards type guys from ten years ago that didn't give a crap about anything but winning... and before you go off about the booze and the oxy, remind yourself that Richards was on the Oxy so he could play through pain to keep friggin' winning.  Probably was boozing so much to kill earlier younger versions of the same pain.  

 

This team is more highly skilled than any of us would like to believe at this point, but I believe it because I see it.  What they lack is the confidence to implement that skill.  

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8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I really hate that Hextall was shown the door before Hakstol.

 

Honestly, I could care less who was first being fired - I am just glad they are both gone.  Never been a fan of Hak and Hextall was trying to play chess without at strategy.

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For the JvR haters (source:HB):

 

 

JVR is averaging 16:08 per game since Gordon took over, and has 9 points in 13 games, same as Giroux. He also has the best +/- out of all Flyer forwards in that period.

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21 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

Honestly, I could care less who was first being fired - I am just glad they are both gone.  Never been a fan of Hak and Hextall was trying to play chess without at strategy.

 

I agree on Hakstol, but I disagree on Hextall and I think his short sightedness on Hakstol was his biggest and only unforgiveable flaw.

 

I have a larger issue with Homer and Scott for canning them both without any idea what they wanted to do instead.  Dumb dumb dumb.

 

Seems as though Hextall's came utterly out of the blue as well, as opposed to Hakstol who we've all known (him included) was on the hot seat for two years now.   

 

Seems like some actual managing of Hextall and strategizing and sharing of direction might have eased the situation on the whole and not made this team feel like the season was already over at that point.  

 

We can argue about Hextall and Hakstol until the cows come home, but how Homer and Scott have managed this thing has been utterly pathetic through and through and there's really little question about that.  

 

"We have a fundamental difference of philosophies with Hextall."

okay what's your new philosophy we can look forward to?

"We have no idea."  

 

Dumb.  

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7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I have a larger issue with Homer and Scott for canning them both without any idea what they wanted to do instead.  Dumb dumb dumb.

 

It is really scary to think that the smartest hockey guy in the organization was probably Ed Snider. There, I said it.

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12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

"We have no idea."  

 

 

not really sure they said that but okay...   Until Fletch puts his mark on the team I think, at best, this is inclusive.    

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    • 5
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      Sounds exactly like Phil Kessel...then he was traded to Pittsburgh.
    • 4
      Post
      I wouldn't mind either... our version of JVR is the same as 1.0. Don't know what he was like in Toronto, but it looks like he hasn't changed since we traded him for Luke Schenn straight up. He's been a disappointment for us in just about every angle—coming, going, taking up space on the roster...
    • 4
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      That would be a great return for a top 10 NHL player.   This team would be completely unwatchable if not for Giroux.    Takes like this read like trolling, is that your intent? 
    • 4
      Post
      It's funny how many people (I'm not saying you) complained that Hextall didn't go after any players that would make the Flyers better now...yet when he signs the 2nd best UFA of the season people complain about it. And I'm no JVR fan.    I also think that signing was likely due to pressure being put on Hextall to do something NOW. I mean does JVR actually remind you of a Hextall type player? Doesn't he go for the 200 foot type? JVR is more of a 30 footer.    I also think he's
    • 4
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      I absolutely agree, but you're not going to get that in a Simmonds trade.  Because that desire would be the reason someone would be trading for Simmonds (i.e., they have a good team but are looking to add grit).  So you use him to get skill and go find grit elsewhere. Like Morin, hopefully.  Or in a trade for someone else.     But I do think any trade involving Simmonds won't have grit coming back.  Because if the other team had it, they wouldn't be trading for Simmonds.
    • 3
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      Elliott and Neuvirth because they break when they move. McDud because no one has seen him move.
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