Niederreiter Traded For Victor Rask

[Tomdog]

I don't think it would be possible to be softer than Nino.

This team has been short at center forever.

Has anyone heard anything about Fehr, if he is out long term, that would explain a lot

 

[Davey J]

On top of being soft, I keep reading about Rask's effort and skating issues.  If this it true, he has to be one of the very last players I would want to add to my team!

 

Until I see something different, the only value the Wild got back for Nino is $1.25million in cap savings...

 

Also, I would have traded Zucker LOOOOOOOONG before I would have moved Nino.  Zucker is, always has been, and always will be...the other team's best puck moving defenseman!  He is a 1/2 second slow on all his decisions, can't catch or make a pass and has the most useless speed in hockey!  While Nino has been horrible offensively this season, he still did a lot more to help the team than Zucker does.

 

Side note: Trading Coyle would be one of the dumbest things Fenton could do!  Yes, he frustrates the crap out of me (and us), but he has been a top 5 player (on a crappy team...) for the Wild since his full-time move to center.  Big, strong, fast, skilled, right-shot centers making $3.2million a season do not grow on trees.  Unless he gets blown away with an offer...Coyle should stay put.

 

[sweetshot]

16 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

For sure, I HAVE no idea whether BB had anything to do with this move or not....although, one would think the head coach always has a say in such matters.

But what is interesting to me is, if you look at BB teams of the past, he seems to favor big, large, offensive oriented players with a mean streak over the smaller, speedier, more "docile" players, for lack of a better term at the moment.
Look at the top players in Anaheim and before that in Washington when BB coached there.
Usually defined by large, aggressive, mean streaked, but offense oriented forwards.

Nino Niedderreiter actually FITS that description.....he seems to be more the "Boudreau type guy".

 

Still though, no matter what mold you fit in, if you aren't helping your team, if you aren't doing what is expected, if you aren't playing to your perceived best, then you become a liability, and if that means trading a liability for the chance on another player who perhaps DOESN'T fit the BB mold, then so be it, and in my opinion that is what happened here.

Only BB knows for sure whether he wanted to continue to give Nino time to straighten out his game, or whether he simply wanted another body, ANY decent body with some upside to replace what Nino WASN'T doing.
Maybe the GM overruled him...maybe they just collaborated and came to a concensus.

 

The Wild's coach, I believe, wants to win as badly as any player on the team.....and in an ideal world, guys like Nino, Coyle, Greenway, Fehr, Foligno, even Staal who can play an underrated tough game while still being offensively oriented would be his go-to type guys.
But that just isn't working right now and the Wild at this stage, can possibly squander further games if they don't do something about the current situation.

Enter Victor Rask, who DOES have upside, who has shown that he can be reliable, even though he doesn't necessarily fit the BB style of player.

I know it remains to be seen as we haven't seen Rask up close yet, but this trade, even given how badly Nino has been this year, makes us a weaker team IMO. All we need is another guy with skating issues.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

6 minutes ago, sweetshot said:

I know it remains to be seen as we haven't seen Rask up close yet, but this trade, even given how badly Nino has been this year, makes us a weaker team IMO. All we need is another guy with skating issues.

 

Yea, I am under no delusions that Rask will replace what Nino can do.
I mean, they are vastly different players, and their skillsets are pretty different.

But Nino was struggling so badly, that I think even he began to hear what was being said about him...not to mention the pressure I am sure he put himself under having the big money contract.
I just don't see where he could have rebounded at this juncture to a point where people would lay off him for his lack of performance.

Can the Canes get more out of him? Who knows.
Rod Brind Amour in Carolina is known more as a player's coach.... Brind Amour played a tough checking, but offensive style...maybe he can unlock the rest of Nino where Boudreau could not.

As for Minnesota, they just needed to move on from him, although, I must agree with those who said that the value for Nino should have been a bit more than just another struggling player.
I mean, even a mid round draft pick (maybe a 4th rounder) attached to Rask would not have been unreasonable to ask for, as I think Nino's upside is still better than Rask's.

That said, if Rask can be a solid 2C or 3C and show some of that dishing magic he showed flashes of in Carolina, maybe the Wild can find a use for him after all.
But aggression and hitting is NOT in his tool bag.
He is just one of those players that HAS to produce to be an effective player, as he doesn't bring much, outside of face off ability ( career over 50%), to the table.
At his best, he has shown he can be, more or less, a 40-45 point-ish NHL player.

He does like to shoot the puck, as well as find open teammates, and he is actually pretty good at handling the puck and skating it rather than just dump n chase it.
So maybe, must maybe, the Wild can fit that skill set into their team game.

But if he slumps, look out......he may end up being a bigger void than Nino, because at least Neidderreiter could still check even if he wasn't producing on offense.

[ClusterChuck]

16 hours ago, EmptyShelf said:

 Now we have to hope Seattle relieves us from Rask down the road. 

On that note, I wouldn't want to be a GM during this time period since Vegas was announced and now Seattle.

It's hard enough to build a team and yet plan around who can/should be protected takes it to a new level.

[Davey J]

1 hour ago, sweetshot said:

I know it remains to be seen as we haven't seen Rask up close yet, but this trade, even given how badly Nino has been this year, makes us a weaker team IMO. All we need is another guy with skating issues.

Especially at center!

[EJ0226]

18 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

For sure, I HAVE no idea whether BB had anything to do with this move or not....although, one would think the head coach always has a say in such matters.

But what is interesting to me is, if you look at BB teams of the past, he seems to favor big, large, offensive oriented players with a mean streak over the smaller, speedier, more "docile" players, for lack of a better term at the moment.
Look at the top players in Anaheim and before that in Washington when BB coached there.

I would say for most teams that the coach does have say but the Wild are different. Reason I think that is with Craig Leipold saying he will only allow minor changes I think Bruce is pretty much stuck with what he gets with very little say or weight to it.

[Davey J]

25 minutes ago, EJ0226 said:

I would say for most teams that the coach does have say but the Wild are different. Reason I think that is with Craig Leipold saying he will only allow minor changes I think Bruce is pretty much stuck with what he gets with very little say or weight to it.

Not with the money Boudreau is making...

 

 

[Hockey-78]

3 hours ago, sweetshot said:

I know it remains to be seen as we haven't seen Rask up close yet, but this trade, even given how badly Nino has been this year, makes us a weaker team IMO. All we need is another guy with skating issues.

Nino's had skating issues all season long, I don't see an issue there (unless Rask is another Hanzal).

[rottenrefs]

This is what the Wild dumped:

 

Their most durable player, allocated to 3rd line minutes with whatever other junk players they can scratch up to pair with him.

The least amount of average ice time with the highest scoring percentage.

Several years ago I did a chart comparing goals scored versus player salaries and Zucker and Nino's goals were by far the most cost effective; versus time on ice, etc.

[Hockey-78]

8 minutes ago, rottenrefs said:

This is what the Wild dumped:

 

Their most durable player, allocated to 3rd line minutes with whatever other junk players they can scratch up to pair with him.

The least amount of average ice time with the highest scoring percentage.

Several years ago I did a chart comparing goals scored versus player salaries and Zucker and Nino's goals were by far the most cost effective; versus time on ice, etc.

Could you include PP TOI and +/- rating? Just this season. There's your reason why he was dumped.

 

I know he's your favorite but pretty tough task to argument based on stats many seasons ago why not to trade now. Plus he didn't play with junk players this season.

[sweetshot]

13 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

Nino's had skating issues all season long, I don't see an issue there (unless Rask is another Hanzal).

I read somewhere a scout said one of Rasks issues is that he has trouble with the increased speed of the game now, he doesn't have great feet. Another said the pace of his game is way off from what it was a couple of years ago.

[rottenrefs]

5 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

Could you include PP TOI and +/- rating? Just this season. There's your reason why he was dumped.

 

I know he's your favorite but pretty tough task to argument based on stats many seasons ago why not to trade now. Plus he didn't play with junk players this season.

PP there's no way to accurately compare because as far as I'm concerned short of watching and accumulating each PP, which unit or players are shuffled in/out of them, shifts and so forth, all the stats are based on yearly totals. It's highly inaccurate.

 

But, 2018-19 he's got 3 PP goals, 5 PP assists and averaging 14:37 TOI for the year and minus 11.

Last year, 2017-18 he had 7 PP goals, 1 PP assist and averaged 15:00 TOI for the year and lead all forwards with a plus 14.

Then 2016-17 he had 8 PP goals (lead the team), 6 PP assists, 15:04 TOI for the year and a plus 17.

 

He's not my favorite player. While I like him a lot, much like Haula I feel he's been dealt a sh!tty card and was never put in position to take advantage of his strengths.

 

What people need to do is take a good hard look at how this team is built. They want every player to play both sides of the rink and at all cost, they'll ruin someone's potential while proving not everyone is capable of being a square peg fitting into a round hole.

[Davey J]

1 hour ago, sweetshot said:

I read somewhere a scout said one of Rasks issues is that he has trouble with the increased speed of the game now, he doesn't have great feet. Another said the pace of his game is way off from what it was a couple of years ago.

Talk about exciting... 

 

On paper, it's an absolute horrible trade!

[rottenrefs]

The problem is the Wild eager to gain cap space (1.25 million), dumped a struggling (probably unhappy) asset while acquiring a guy for about 1.5 million (beyond the 1.25 million) more than he's worth.

 

edit to add: (beyond the 1.25 million)

[Hockey-78]

11 hours ago, rottenrefs said:

PP there's no way to accurately compare because as far as I'm concerned short of watching and accumulating each PP, which unit or players are shuffled in/out of them, shifts and so forth, all the stats are based on yearly totals. It's highly inaccurate.

 

But, 2018-19 he's got 3 PP goals, 5 PP assists and averaging 14:37 TOI for the year and minus 11.

Last year, 2017-18 he had 7 PP goals, 1 PP assist and averaged 15:00 TOI for the year and lead all forwards with a plus 14.

Then 2016-17 he had 8 PP goals (lead the team), 6 PP assists, 15:04 TOI for the year and a plus 17.

HIs PP TOI/GP was little over 2 mins. which means he was constantly on the first 2 PP units. Since scoring 5 on 5 is more difficult these days I'd and many others place more weight on scoring on the PP.

 

Like I said, if you get traded this year stats from this year are probably much more meaningful than previous years, don't you think so? With -11 last in the Wild +/- rating and +14 last year which makes you think it's not problem of the system nor coach's nor players around him - he personally couldn't make it.

[Hockey-78]

9 hours ago, Davey J said:

Talk about exciting... 

 

On paper, it's an absolute horrible trade!

On paper... someone or was it even multiple posters said before the season "this is the best Wild roster in years". But on ice - I REALLY don't think so! Or do you?

 

Probably the wisest to let Rask play first and then evaluate/backstab him some more. Plus let's see what Nino can do in the Canes. I've seen them play a lot this year - a team with loads of speed. Might be difficult for Nino to adjust to that...

[rottenrefs]

2 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

HIs PP TOI/GP was little over 2 mins. which means he was constantly on the first 2 PP units. Since scoring 5 on 5 is more difficult these days I'd and many others place more weight on scoring on the PP.

 

Like I said, if you get traded this year stats from this year are probably much more meaningful than previous years, don't you think so? With -11 last in the Wild +/- rating and +14 last year which makes you think it's not problem of the system nor coach's nor players around him - he personally couldn't make it.

I'm not following how you're determining that. But games I've watched has the first PP unit sent out there and in most cases they gobble up about 1:45 of the PP before the 2nd unit gets sent out and that's usually where Nino was at. If players on the 1st PP just had a shift the 2nd PP unit got out there first, for about a minute before the 1st PP unit got out there. Generally Nino was on the 2nd PP unit. Even at that sometimes Fehr was out there in place of Nino and he would draw rather than Staal.

 

Either way, in recent years Nino has seen more PP time but his scoring this year was off - as was his 5 on 5 play.

 

IMO the plus / minus at -11 is hardly measurable seeing as only two players on the team have a plus rating... Parise is highest with +2 and Prosser at +1. Granlund, Staal and Hendricks are at +0 and everyone else has a minus rating. Based on those last 6 years I noted this years plus / minus (as a team) is terrible compared to the previous 5 years, which in each of those previous 5 years ranked Nino in the top 3 or so on the entire team.

 

It still remains the Wild gave up their 2nd highest scorer over the past 6 years , the 2nd most consistent scorer on the whole team in favor of Rask, who over the past 5 years has 50 less goals, 100 less games and if you want to bring in and compare his plus / minus his highest was +0.

 

The Wild can't find scoring and they just got someone who can't score worth a sh!t but they gained another less than average center with no one in sight to shore up their defense now that Dumba is out for the year, and no one to pick up where Nino left off from last year or previous years in the scoring department. But they gained $1.25 million in cap space. That's Fontaine worthy and even at that Fontaine scored a lot more and wasn't a $4 million dollar signing like Rask is. And of course none of them are actually comparable quite honestly, but the numbers do not add up no matter how they're stacked up.

[Hockey-78]

4 hours ago, rottenrefs said:

I'm not following how you're determining that.

 

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?report=timeonice&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=team.30&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=ppTimeOnIcePerGame

[ClusterChuck]

20 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

Could you include PP TOI and +/- rating? Just this season. There's your reason why he was dumped.

 

I think it was here that someone mentioned Fenton had done some shopping with Nino during this last summer.

Nobody was biting because of that contact. If so, Then Nino would've needed to have an outstanding season to keep him.

Irons were already in the fire.

 

I expected Nino to at least play to his 'normal' level..With Rask at least I have no expectations now and am willing to see what he can do.

A bit refreshing imo. 

Tough to expect Prime rib when you barter with Ground Chuck.

[sweetshot]

21 hours ago, rottenrefs said:

PP there's no way to accurately compare because as far as I'm concerned short of watching and accumulating each PP, which unit or players are shuffled in/out of them, shifts and so forth, all the stats are based on yearly totals. It's highly inaccurate.

 

But, 2018-19 he's got 3 PP goals, 5 PP assists and averaging 14:37 TOI for the year and minus 11.

Last year, 2017-18 he had 7 PP goals, 1 PP assist and averaged 15:00 TOI for the year and lead all forwards with a plus 14.

Then 2016-17 he had 8 PP goals (lead the team), 6 PP assists, 15:04 TOI for the year and a plus 17.

 

He's not my favorite player. While I like him a lot, much like Haula I feel he's been dealt a sh!tty card and was never put in position to take advantage of his strengths.

 

What people need to do is take a good hard look at how this team is built. They want every player to play both sides of the rink and at all cost, they'll ruin someone's potential while proving not everyone is capable of being a square peg fitting into a round hole.

I agree with you regarding Nino's treatment. For whatever reason the Wild seems to have a lukewarm attitude toward him. That goes back to Yoe's days.

 Maybe he left too many water spots on Mikko's Mercedes.

I think Nino is a classic example of a guy needing a change of scenery--IMO he'll do well for Carolina.

[Hockey-78]

19 minutes ago, sweetshot said:

I agree with you regarding Nino's treatment. For whatever reason the Wild seems to have a lukewarm attitude toward him. That goes back to Yoe's days.

 Maybe he left too many water spots on Mikko's Mercedes.

I think Nino is a classic example of a guy needing a change of scenery--IMO he'll do well for Carolina.

I'm not so convinced that the Wild had anything against Nino. That was a good trade, getting him for Clutts. But yeah, maybe he was in Yeo's doghouse just like Zucker and Haula. I wouldn't say BB had anything against him since for instance he was given a lot of PP time to make his presence felt.

[Hockey-78]

1 hour ago, ClusterChuck said:

 

Irons were already in the fire.

 

 

I expected Nino to at least play to his 'normal' level..With Rask at least I have no expectations now and am willing to see what he can do.

A bit refreshing imo. 

Tough to expect Prime rib when you barter with Ground Chuck.

Yeah, they probably were.

 

Yeah, what we saw this season wasn't his normal level. I've suspected all along he had something in his leg/legs preventing him to skate 100%, at times his movements were horribly slow. But since he passed med. exam. so undoubtedly he was fine.

[EmptyShelf]

Regardless of your ‘opinion,’ it is terrible value in a trade.  Trade a player that HAS performed in the past and was injured most of last year, for a player that has tailed off for two or more years and will become a bigger problem for the Wild down the road. All for $1.25MM in savings, which should have been saved on the disastrous Koivu contract where we were bidding against ourselves.  Rask also has 3 more years on contract.  This is TERRIBLE management of assets.  If you are going to make this trade, you don’t make it when your asset is at lowest value.   

[EmptyShelf]

Also, Nino fits a need for the Wild and BB’s style, while Rask definitively DOES NOT.  A large portion of the hockey message board community (including the Canes) are saying we ‘got fleeced,’ and were laughing at the Wild.  You don’t dump a recovering asset that still has value for a worthless asset the Canes thought of ‘cutting’ outright.  You also don’t fix a money problem caused by Koivu/Suter contracts by dumping a meaningful player for negative value.  I predict Nino will stick it in our face, while we try to extricate ourselves from Rask within 25 games (if he is even healthy enough to play 25 or not scratched prior). I will be here to say ‘I told you so, or to eat crow.’