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Howie58

On Organization Culture: Islanders vs. Flyers

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Greetings:

 

Looking at the Metropolitan Division standing raises some interesting questions.  On paper, we are a lot better than the Isles. Some folks were wondering about Lemoriello's signings of Filpulla and Komorov, et. al.  I saw this post earlier today:

 

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Food for thought.

 

Best,

Howie

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Guess coaching makes a difference, huh?

 

Quote

They have won five in a row and 12 of 14. Their goalies lead the league with a .920 save percentage after ranking 28th last season. They have allowed the fewest goals a game in the league after being the worst in that category last season.

 

It's frustrating as a Flyers fan. But the good news is, we could be next year's Isles with a good coach. We have as much, if not more, raw talent on this team. 

 

Lamoriello and Trotz have done an amazing job! It's way more impressive than Toronto, which has the benefit of several elite level players. 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, brelic said:

Guess coaching makes a difference, huh?

 

 

It's frustrating as a Flyers fan. But the good news is, we could be next year's Isles with a good coach. We have as much, if not more, raw talent on this team. 

 

Lamoriello and Trotz have done an amazing job! It's way more impressive than Toronto, which has the benefit of several elite level players. 

 

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I think I remember a convo about Trots when word got out that he wouldn't be signing in Washington. I remember really hoping Hexy would dump the Hak and bring in the Trot (quotable quote of the day right there). I still wish he had done so.

 

Live and learn I guess.

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8 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I think I remember a convo about Trots when word got out that he wouldn't be signing in Washington. I remember really hoping Hexy would dump the Hak and bring in the Trot (quotable quote of the day right there). I still wish he had done so.

 

Live and learn I guess.

 

A lot will depend on who Fletch tags as the next coach. I hope he doesn't screw it up!

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It is frustrating to think what might be under different circumstances.  Scott and Homer may have been correct in thinking something was up when they sacked our GM and implicitly, the coach.  But organizations are more than the coach. Would they have allowed a Trotz to operate the way he wanted?  

 

That said, I get a get a kick out of the much-criticized Lehner looking Bernie-like.  

 

 

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I wish I could share everyone's evaluation of the Flyers talent. Somewhere on an NHL players skill set checklist there needs to be a column for heart, effort, integrity, toughness (mental and physical) pushback, resolve, teamwork, leadership, hockey smarts, coachability, and more. Not just skating and stickhandling. These traits come from inside a players soul, not from a coach. 

I am certain the current Flyers roster has many of these attributes. For some reason, they seem to have all disappeared at the same time this season. 

The Vegas mantra was to draft and trade for players who have all of these attributes. It seems to be working for them.

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When the owner, Ed Snider (God rest his soul), comes out and says we don't need a culture change, his blind loyalists followed suit. Well, guess what? They continue to. The Islanders RECOGNIZED they needed to change what they were doing. They had one great player for a while, but were floundering in failure. They brought in Trotz. They are now, at least PLAYING like one of the best teams in the league, even if they really aren't truly among them. The Flyers, meanwhile, tried Hextall for a while. He was too rigid, so now we have to hope they fine tune his philosophy and don't go back to selling the farm for 35 year olds. I like Fletcher but as long as Scott and Holmgren are ultimately pulling the strings, I will always suspect how long they will leave Fletcher alone.

Edited by FD19372
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4 hours ago, FD19372 said:

When the owner, Ed Snider (God rest his soul), comes out and says we don't need a culture change, his blind loyalists followed suit. Well, guess what? They continue to. The Islanders RECOGNIZED they needed to change what they were doing. They had one great player for a while, but were floundering in failure. They brought in Trotz. They are now, at least PLAYING like one of the best teams in the league, even if they really aren't truly among them. The Flyers, meanwhile, tried Hextall for a while. He was too rigid, so now we have to hope they fine tune his philosophy and don't go back to selling the farm for 35 year olds. I like Fletcher but as long as Scott and Holmgren are ultimately pulling the strings, I will always suspect how long they will leave Fletcher alone.

I guess we hope against hope that Scott says we need to run the team better, if only to enhance/protect Comcast's investment.  We hve to keep our fingers crossed.  That said, we haven't won a playoff series in what, six years.  That is nuts.  

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8 hours ago, Howie58 said:

That said, we haven't won a playoff series in what, six years.

 

And that was with Bryz in goal.....think about that for a minute.

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we just hope q agrees to come here, it will be one of the biggest coaching hires in flyers history and maybe for the franchise.

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3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And that was with Bryz in goal.....think about that for a minute.

Occ:

 

I would say it is amusing and depressing in the same breath.  Yikes!

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1 hour ago, briere48 said:

we just hope q agrees to come here, it will be one of the biggest coaching hires in flyers history and maybe for the franchise.

Part 1: Bringing him in. Part 2: Leaving Q alone, and letting him coach the way he wants to.

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Joel Quennville is obviously a good coach. Keep in mind though, there is no Toews, Kane, Keith, Seebrooke, Hossa, Hjarmalsson, Sharp, Oduya, Bickell. These guys make bad coaches good.

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5 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Joel Quennville is obviously a good coach. Keep in mind though, there is no Toews, Kane, Keith, Seebrooke, Hossa, Hjarmalsson, Sharp, Oduya, Bickell. These guys make bad coaches good.

tell that to trotz

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I think it took a long time for management to realize the skill and speed needed for current play. Apparently, Fletcher sees size as important too.  Accountability--that is probably something that needs organizational support from the top down.  Scott and Holmgren were more results-driven than Hexy understood.  

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It's also about getting the most out of your players. We may not have elite talent, but we have some very good players and most of them underachieved this year. That's where leadership from the players and coaching come in. It also comes from actually "building" a team with a plan in mind, and how the pieces are going to fit. Not just drafting all playmakers and no finishers, not always drafting centers and hope they can adjust to playing wing. Sometimes you have to draft by need , you are missing a certain element, you have the making of a good line and you draft a player to complete, that line. The Flyers of today, dont have much chemistry. The Sixers had high picks for a few years and picked the so called best players and they didnt fit and were basically given away for nothing. They wasted picks..sometimes you have to draft to fit a need and complete a lineup with chemistry and style of play in mind.

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21 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Keep in mind though, there is no Toews, Kane, Keith, Seebrooke, Hossa, Hjarmalsson, Sharp, Oduya, Bickell

Okay I'll do that, also let's recognize that with the exception of Kane not one of those guys came into the league and killed it from the jump.

Not. One.

So, could Farabee be "Kane like" ? what about Morgan Frost, who would he project to be? Patrick is already in the league and though he has struggled, I know you know he has talent. Provorov is better than Keith at the same age. Sanhiem is better than Hjarmalsson at the same age. We don't really have a Seabrook type ...Maybe Freidman ?  Brent is kind of a unique player....Any way are those 'hawks players , the same without the quality coach ?  I doubt it.

Maybe Q could mold the Flyers young guys into better players than those 'hawks guys. 

There are some good players on the Flyers NHL roster too that would benefit from being held accountable in the Q manner.

 

The Islanders are "on paper" a worse team than they were last year, did they suddenly draft and acquire "all-character" guys for this year ? No, they didn't.

I know Matthew Barzal, Josh Bailey and Jordan Eberle didn't have a "courage implant" in the off-season.

More likely Barry Trotz came in and changed how business is conducted, I'll go with that making a huge difference.

Heck, I think Gordon has made a difference with the current Flyers team, so imagine a guy with Quennville's reputation and gravitas and the effect  that would have on a young roster. 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

They wasted picks..sometimes you have to draft to fit a need and complete a lineup with chemistry and style of play in mind

Or to take this point further, sign some guys in free agency or make a trade of one of the 100s of BPA centermen for the missing pieces.

This to me is where this year's team could have really been helped.

 

 

 

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Mojo they won 3 cups by paying the price. The current Flyers are in last place. End of story.

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4 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Mojo they won 3 cups by paying the price. The current Flyers are in last place. End of story.

They being the Blackhawks ?

Quennville coached all those teams. 

I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying. 

 

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1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

Mojo they won 3 cups by paying the price. The current Flyers are in last place. End of story.

 

you want to pass on joel q for that reason? ok, either you are not a flyers fan or you just dont like joel q.

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2 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Mojo they won 3 cups by paying the price. The current Flyers are in last place. End of story.

 

I'm not really sure what you're referring to as the price? They sucked for a handful of years and got two top three picks in a row. Do you mean they paid the price in that way?

 

I find it strange how folks seem to either think it's all about the players or all about the coach. It seems fairly obvious to me that both need to be in alignment for a team to really become a force. If a team has either poor talent or bad coaching, their chances of making much noise seems extremely limited to me. 

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15 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I'm not really sure what you're referring to as the price? They sucked for a handful of years and got two top three picks in a row. Do you mean they paid the price in that way?

 

I find it strange how folks seem to either think it's all about the players or all about the coach. It seems fairly obvious to me that both need to be in alignment for a team to really become a force. If a team has either poor talent or bad coaching, their chances of making much noise seems extremely limited to me. 

 

The same applies in reverse. It's rare that teams 'tank' on purpose. They are just really that bad. Sure, they may sell off pieces to reinforce the bad-ness, but I'm not quite sure what people expect Fletch to do. Trade Giroux? Voracek? Ghost? 

 

You could do all of that, and yes, the team will be worse. But it won't only be for the next 30 games. Jack Hughes or Kappo Kakko will not immediately replace what you've just traded, and I'm not at all convinced that the return on those guys will be BETTER players. 

 

Mark Stone might be an example - same with Panarin. But they're both pending UFAs, and you'd be giving away a HUGELY valuable asset for someone you might get for free in the summer. 

 

One scenario I could see is, say, a Voracek for Benn trade if both teams are frustrated with said players. Sometimes a swap works. But that doesn't encourage a tank - it's a sideways move at best.

 

In any case, I don't think the Flyers are bad enough to finish last overall, and I disagree with selling off our best pieces to get there.

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54 minutes ago, brelic said:

In any case, I don't think the Flyers are bad enough to finish last overall, and I disagree with selling off our best pieces to get there.

 

I agree with you to a point. I would trade Voracek, as I really do think he's a big part of the problem. I think JVR will be recognized as a problem very quickly if he plays another season in PHI. I also don't think that should shock anyone who's paying attention. 

 

I would also consider trading Ghost, not because he's a bad player at all, but because I think he would fetch us a solid return, and I'm not convinced we need him at this point. I wouldn't necessarily shop him around a ton, but I'd at least float the idea to see what we could get. And if someone is willing to overpay, I might consider it. Again, he's a good player, I just think he's expendable at this point.

 

I wouldn't trade Giroux or Couts or any of the younger guns we have who are still figuring things out. That seems way too much for me.

 

54 minutes ago, brelic said:

The same applies in reverse. It's rare that teams 'tank' on purpose. They are just really that bad.

 

You're saying this team really is just that bad? I'm worried you're right about that. Personally though, I prefer thinking we have some rotten pieces that do more harm than good (Voracek, JVR) and a number of youngins who still need to figure things out (Provo, Patrick). Make those changes and bring in a true NHL-level coach for the first time in forever, and maybe we can see some things start turning around. 

 

And if that doesn't work, then fine, blow it up or whatever. But at least start with that. If we go into next season with basically this same roster and coaching staff, we should expect a similar result. Ball's in Fletch's court.

 

Oh, and if Dallas ever even so much as suggested a Voracek for Benn trade, I really hope Fletch doesn't think about it too much. One is one of the league's best power forwards of the last half decade, and the other is... nothing like that. Can you imagine Giroux and Benn on the same line? That's Team Canada worthy.

Edited by elmatus

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      It's also about getting the most out of your players. We may not have elite talent, but we have some very good players and most of them underachieved this year. That's where leadership from the players and coaching come in. It also comes from actually "building" a team with a plan in mind, and how the pieces are going to fit. Not just drafting all playmakers and no finishers, not always drafting centers and hope they can adjust to playing wing. Sometimes you have to draft by need , you are missi
    • 3
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      Okay I'll do that, also let's recognize that with the exception of Kane not one of those guys came into the league and killed it from the jump. Not. One. So, could Farabee be "Kane like" ? what about Morgan Frost, who would he project to be? Patrick is already in the league and though he has struggled, I know you know he has talent. Provorov is better than Keith at the same age. Sanhiem is better than Hjarmalsson at the same age. We don't really have a Seabrook type ...Maybe Freidman ?
    • 2
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      Guess coaching makes a difference, huh?     It's frustrating as a Flyers fan. But the good news is, we could be next year's Isles with a good coach. We have as much, if not more, raw talent on this team.    Lamoriello and Trotz have done an amazing job! It's way more impressive than Toronto, which has the benefit of several elite level players.       
    • 2
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      Part 1: Bringing him in. Part 2: Leaving Q alone, and letting him coach the way he wants to.
    • 2
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      tell that to trotz
    • 2
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      I'm not really sure what you're referring to as the price? They sucked for a handful of years and got two top three picks in a row. Do you mean they paid the price in that way?   I find it strange how folks seem to either think it's all about the players or all about the coach. It seems fairly obvious to me that both need to be in alignment for a team to really become a force. If a team has either poor talent or bad coaching, their chances of making much noise seems extremely limited t

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