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Koivu Out for Remainder of the Season


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Koivu out... What move should Fenton Make?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What move do you want Fenton to make?

    • Trade for a Center - you never know what may happen once in the playoffs.
      4
    • Fill the void from within the organization as the Wild need to keep their draft picks and get younger.
      9
    • Sell where possible before the trade deadline and build for the future
      4


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In fact Nino was drafted 5th overall by the Isles back in the days where Garth Snow the Genius was in charge, if I remember correctly. The Nico/Clutterbuck deal was one of the good ones made by the Wild.

 

In this problematic, there's two aspects to consider: The drafting and the developing. You can draft good but struggle to develop your prospect correctly.

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23 minutes ago, Villette/Lavaux said:

In fact Nino was drafted 5th overall by the Isles back in the days where Garth Snow the Genius was in charge, if I remember correctly. The Nico/Clutterbuck deal was one of the good ones made by the Wild.

 

In this problematic, there's two aspects to consider: The drafting and the developing. You can draft good but struggle to develop your prospect correctly.

That's what I was trying to say. Our drafting based on our team needs and play style isn't very good. Seems like we like to draft guys that have a certain skill set then try to force them to learn some other skill set and they fail at it then give up on them and trade them. We then see what happens when a team sees their actually skill set and allow them to use it and not force something else on them.

They want to build around the core (which every team wants to do) but they draft players that don't have skill sets to help the core out but expect them to learn them instead of drafting guys that have the skill sets to help the core out. But it really doesn't help that our core isn't good either.

That's why I say our drafting is bad. I am not going to base it on if they played x amount of games. A team could have a bunch of major injuries that would all of a sudden allow a AHL lifer to play a ton of NHL games. I think games played isn't really a good way to base if drafting was good or not.

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32 minutes ago, EJ0226 said:

 Seems like we like to draft guys that have a certain skill set then try to force them to learn some other skill set and they fail at it then give up on them and trade them. We then see what happens when a team sees their actually skill set and allow them to use it and not force something else on them.

 

Similar to 'Big Papi' and the Twins.

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3 hours ago, EJ0226 said:

 

Are you including guys that the Wild traded before those players hit the 100 or 200 game mark?

I think why everybody says our drafting sucks is between these reasons:
1. No Superstar or game/franchise changer has been drafted since Gaborik and Burns.

2. Most of the good drafts sit high in our line up that would otherwise be 3rd or 4th liner guys on other teams.

3. This is more or less because the team doesn't know how to use the players and their skill sets but we see so many players not do much here and get traded to other teams where they become very good talent. Haula, Tuch and Nino are latest examples. Nino has 6 goals in 11 games with the Canes. He had 9 goals in 46 games with us. Hell we even don't bother to communicate with possible our best prospect ever and he figures we want nothing to do with him so he stays in Russia.

If we just based "success" off of games played then, yes the Wild are good at drafting. If we actually look deeper into it and how the Wild actually use the player and their skill set the Wild are horrible.

My belief is that the next guy we trade will find better success elsewhere. I think between building a team around a very flawed core, not having coaches either coach a players talent out and improve them or coaches that force players to play a different skill set that they don't have, below average scouts, and atmosphere that doesn't seem to help out struggling players unless they are the core and you got a mess of drafting.

 

Yes, I am. I wasn't looking at if the player was still on the Wild. I was looking at if the player had the talent to stick in the NHL. The scouts job is to find players that have an increased chance of making it to the NHL. That's it. What the GM and coaching staff does with those players (trades them, buries them, etc.) is beyond their control.

 

How the Wild use those players they draft is a different story. You could have coaches that prefer veterans over young players, and so any young players will not get the ice time. You could have a player drafted that plays the same position as an established superstar on the team, and thus will be blocked from advancing. You could have a player that isn't developing in the minors at the pace the team deems is sufficient and he gets passed over for a player that is developing at a pace the team feels is more to their liking.

 

And it happens the other way as well. Nino was being buried on the fourth line on the Islanders and was traded here and blossomed. Same with Jared Spurgeon. Wasn't getting a shot with the Isles and comes to the Wild and ends up a top pairing defenseman. Even Dubnyk. Drafted in the first round by the Oilers. Who played zero defense in front of him. Get's bounced out of that organization and floats around the league until he lands with the Coyotes and gets coached be Sean Burke. He wasn't going to move Mike Smith out of the #1 spot at that time and they were out of the Playoffs, so the Coyotes figured they pick up an extra draft pick for him. He gets traded to the Wild and saves their season. The Wild aren't the only team that "doesn't use their draft picks properly". 

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2 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Yes, I am. I wasn't looking at if the player was still on the Wild. I was looking at if the player had the talent to stick in the NHL. The scouts job is to find players that have an increased chance of making it to the NHL. That's it. What the GM and coaching staff does with those players (trades them, buries them, etc.) is beyond their control.

 

How the Wild use those players they draft is a different story. You could have coaches that prefer veterans over young players, and so any young players will not get the ice time. You could have a player drafted that plays the same position as an established superstar on the team, and thus will be blocked from advancing. You could have a player that isn't developing in the minors at the pace the team deems is sufficient and he gets passed over for a player that is developing at a pace the team feels is more to their liking.

 

And it happens the other way as well. Nino was being buried on the fourth line on the Islanders and was traded here and blossomed. Same with Jared Spurgeon. Wasn't getting a shot with the Isles and comes to the Wild and ends up a top pairing defenseman. Even Dubnyk. Drafted in the first round by the Oilers. Who played zero defense in front of him. Get's bounced out of that organization and floats around the league until he lands with the Coyotes and gets coached be Sean Burke. He wasn't going to move Mike Smith out of the #1 spot at that time and they were out of the Playoffs, so the Coyotes figured they pick up an extra draft pick for him. He gets traded to the Wild and saves their season. The Wild aren't the only team that "doesn't use their draft picks properly". 

I figured that is what you are looking at. Thanks for the clarification on this.

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21 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Yes, I am. I wasn't looking at if the player was still on the Wild. I was looking at if the player had the talent to stick in the NHL. The scouts job is to find players that have an increased chance of making it to the NHL. That's it. What the GM and coaching staff does with those players (trades them, buries them, etc.) is beyond their control.

 

How the Wild use those players they draft is a different story. You could have coaches that prefer veterans over young players, and so any young players will not get the ice time. You could have a player drafted that plays the same position as an established superstar on the team, and thus will be blocked from advancing. You could have a player that isn't developing in the minors at the pace the team deems is sufficient and he gets passed over for a player that is developing at a pace the team feels is more to their liking.

 

And it happens the other way as well. Nino was being buried on the fourth line on the Islanders and was traded here and blossomed. Same with Jared Spurgeon. Wasn't getting a shot with the Isles and comes to the Wild and ends up a top pairing defenseman. Even Dubnyk. Drafted in the first round by the Oilers. Who played zero defense in front of him. Get's bounced out of that organization and floats around the league until he lands with the Coyotes and gets coached be Sean Burke. He wasn't going to move Mike Smith out of the #1 spot at that time and they were out of the Playoffs, so the Coyotes figured they pick up an extra draft pick for him. He gets traded to the Wild and saves their season. The Wild aren't the only team that "doesn't use their draft picks properly". 

1st off, Good read. :) 

It made me think since the Wild are a perennial middle of the pack, Wild card position type, And because of that possibly it dictates they rely heavily on Veterans. The safe play. If we were a bit consistently stronger then the younger might be cycled in more to see them at this level and have them more ready when needed.

I think back to a Ryan Murphy. Last year I thought he did alright in his few game stint, Seemed to fit in but not eye opening. Coaching staff must of seen things different as guys like Prosser would be the repeated call up.

 

Dubnyk I still believe he's an above average goalie but falls in the group that really reflects the D in front of him. When we first got him, Our D was pretty solid. Right now no way as consistent as in years past. People make the case of Dubnyk's stats since he got here and most of that looks good only because of the early time here. Split the time period in 1/2 to compare and it'll tell a different story. I don't blame Dubs on his own but the team overall D concept.

 

Nino's trade, I just won't go the route of comparing Him and who we got for him based on how they're doing. Same scenario as Nino get's to play top line and next to one of their best players. Our new guys just filled in spots that even Nino played/failed at. Not a realistic comparison. Long term we'll see how the overall trade will be called a success or not  and that'll be up to Fenton.

 

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2 hours ago, sweetshot said:

Although I think in Boston Big Papi met Manny and  the "juice".

David Ortiz’ problem was that he couldn’t stay healthy, had a manager (TK) who didn’t like players who couldn’t play defense, and a front office that was cheap. 

Ortiz was probably going to get $2M in arbitration and TK already had his 1B with Mientkiewitz. They tried to trade him but no one would offer anything for an often injured poor fielding 1B/DH. So they let him walk. 

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On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 9:50 AM, EJ0226 said:

Seems like we like to draft guys that have a certain skill set then try to force them to learn some other skill set and they fail at it then give up on them and trade them. We then see what happens when a team sees their actually skill set and allow them to use it and not force something else on them.

Like who?

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2 hours ago, Starofthenorth said:

Haula, Burns, Nino, tuch are the first few that come to mind.

What skillset were these guys drafted with and then failed when asked to further enhance that skillset. Burns passed with flying colors!

We didnt draft Nino.

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Haula they tried to force to be a newer version of the 4th line shut down center and penalty killer like brodziac. Burns development was delayed due to the wild's inability to keep him at forward or defense and then underselling him for underperforming or non performing assets. Nino we didn't draft but we still squandered any talent he had by playing him on the 4th line, giving him garbage line mates, and further depleting his confidence (seems to be doing fine now). Tuch never got much of an opportunity to show the wild what he could do but he sure turned into the big body power forward that the wild have been needing.

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On Nino, I wouldn’t say he was stuck on the 4th line. 

It wasn’t until he stopped producing that he was put on the 4th line. 

He was given plenty of chances to score with good linemates and pp time. 

Played like a girl in the playoffs last year and then lit it up in the worlds. 

I don’t think nino really wanted to play here anymore. 

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Haula had numerous chances to move up in the pecking order and never really took the bull by the horns. That's why he got stuck on the third-fourth lines.

Nino performed quite well with the Wild, averaging 20 goals a season until last season when he got that hamstring injury. And he wasn't getting those goals on the fourth line. He was playing with Staal, Koivu, Granlund and Coyle. And I agree with @Tomdog, Nino disappeared in the Playoffs but suddenly had all this energy for the Worlds.

At the time, the Burns trade seemed like a good deal. The Wild got Devin Setoguchi (2005 first rounder), Charlie Coyle (2010 first rounder), and the Sharks 2011 first rounder (Wild selected Zack Phillips, #28 overall). Setoguchi was actually fairly productive for the Wild when paired with Matt Cullen. But when the Wild declined to re-sign Cullen, Setoguchi's production plummeted and he was traded to Winnipeg for their 2014 second rounder. Coyle has been a decent player. but he's not consistent. Way too streaky and will disappear for games at a stretch. And I'm sure it doesn't help when the Wild continually bounce him back and forth between wing and center. Zack Phillips was a wasted pick. The guy never skated in the NHL.

If the Wild protected Tuch in the Vegas draft, they would have lost Dumba, because Fletcher chose to protect Brodin instead. I'm still scratching my head at that one, but it is what it is...

 

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Somebody already gave list of players. Maybe they don't always try to make them learn a new skill set but they for sure don't play to that players skill set. That's why you are seeing guys go elsewhere and shine. My guess is if Coyle goes elsewhere (especially Boston) he will look like a first liner and put up some nice looking numbers.

You got to admit there is something off with this team. Why is it when players struggle here they don't seem to recover, get moved and then look great elsewhere? I still think the Wild ingrain some traits into players that they never grew up doing. Look at Coyle. He is passing up shot after shot for a pass. His shots have been declining the last few years. It looks like they are trying to make him a giant size Granlund. Things just don't make sense. Hard to believe this isn't what the team wants him to do since he's been doing it for quite some time now.

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Coyle's numbers

 

Season GP G A P S S% TSA
2012-13 37 8 6 14 50 16% 88
2013-14 70 12 18 30 135 9% 213
2014-15 82 11 24 35 120 9% 214
2015-16 82 21 21 42 140 15% 233
2016-17 82 18 38 56 159 11% 265
2017-18 66 11 26 37 117 9% 199
2017-18* 82 14 32 46 145 10% 247
2018-19 57 10 18 28 107 9% 183
2018-19* 82 14 26 40 154 9% 263


I extrapolated out the 2017-2018 (broken leg) and 2018-2019 (current) numbers. I know that isn't accurate, but looking at Coyle numbers, he seems to be plateauing. Maybe this is because he's played center more this season and doesn't have the opportunities he's had when he's played wing?

 

Coyle's a decent player, just not a great player. Maybe we expect too much out of our players. After all, even though he was a first round pick, he was a very late first round pick. Almost a high second round pick. Some of the other centers selected around Coyle:

 

Rnd Pick Name POS GM G A PT PIM
1 26 Evgeny Kuznetsov C 392 95 224 319 202
1 28 Charlie Coyle C 476 91 151 242 184
1 30 Brock Nelson C 455 116 108 224 163
2 31 Tyler Pitlick C 181 31 20 51 50
2 45 Ryan Spooner C 314 48 115 163 63
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I don't think Haula ever really got a real shot to play a bigger role on the #mnwild.  He would get a few shifts and as soon as Yeo didn't like what he saw he'd be demoted back to the 4th line or scratched.  IMO, it wasn't like that with Granlund and Coyle where they got plenty of time and opportunity no matter how poorly they struggled.  For Haula...he'd get punished.  

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On 2/15/2019 at 10:11 AM, IllaZilla said:

Coyle's numbers

 

Season GP G A P S S% TSA
               

2015-16

82 21 21 42 140 15% 233
2016-17 82 18 38 56 159 11% 265
               

Coyle's a decent player, just not a great player. Maybe we expect too much out of our players. 

We all saw what he could do as in those 2 seasons, Pretty good and I know I kept hoping to see him at that form and getting better each season after. 

Reality is that it was just a spike in his game due to who knows, Certain line mates? Now back to his 'normal' style along with the effect of getting injured has to play just a bit of a role too.

 

@CreaseAndAssist Fully agree on Haula. The Wild were/are always focusing on getting someone else going and especially Haula would be used as a plug once in a while. Never getting a chance to earn a role on whatever line.

 

I'll bet when the 'Protected' list for the Vegas draft came out and Haula wasn't on it, He had to try to hide his excitement to leave...

Really too bad he got injured this year as I was interested to see how he did now on yr2 with Vegas after the Cinderella-Misfit season.

 

 

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On 2/15/2019 at 10:48 AM, CreaseAndAssist said:

I don't think Haula ever really got a real shot to play a bigger role on the #mnwild.  He would get a few shifts and as soon as Yeo didn't like what he saw he'd be demoted back to the 4th line or scratched.  IMO, it wasn't like that with Granlund and Coyle where they got plenty of time and opportunity no matter how poorly they struggled.  For Haula...he'd get punished.  

Spot on - ‘He’d get punished.’  Some given the opportunity (if the Core approves), some not (if not a player to make Core look better). Per EJ, there really is ‘something wrong with this team.’   CL, and his allegiance to 9, 20 (absolutely), and 11 (less so), has killed the culture of this team. 

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On 2/13/2019 at 8:53 AM, EJ0226 said:

 

Are you including guys that the Wild traded before those players hit the 100 or 200 game mark?

I think why everybody says our drafting sucks is between these reasons:
1. No Superstar or game/franchise changer has been drafted since Gaborik and Burns.

2. Most of the good drafts sit high in our line up that would otherwise be 3rd or 4th liner guys on other teams.

3. This is more or less because the team doesn't know how to use the players and their skill sets but we see so many players not do much here and get traded to other teams where they become very good talent. Haula, Tuch and Nino are latest examples. Nino has 6 goals in 11 games with the Canes. He had 9 goals in 46 games with us. Hell we even don't bother to communicate with possible our best prospect ever and he figures we want nothing to do with him so he stays in Russia.

If we just based "success" off of games played then, yes the Wild are good at drafting. If we actually look deeper into it and how the Wild actually use the player and their skill set the Wild are horrible.

My belief is that the next guy we trade will find better success elsewhere. I think between building a team around a very flawed core, not having coaches either coach a players talent out and improve them or coaches that force players to play a different skill set that they don't have, below average scouts, and atmosphere that doesn't seem to help out struggling players unless they are the core and you got a mess of drafting.

Absolutely agree.  Very valid points all.  Can you imagine not contacting your best prospect, only to watch him light up the WJCs and Olympics and re-sign with KHL?  This was hubris and stupidity by CF and CL - Get off your a$$es in your Xcel suite and jump in your jet and get the kid signed - before it will break the bank like it now will.  I am not sure we will even be able to afford him now with the 3 spinsters contracts.  

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