Wayne Simmonds traded for Ryan Hartman

[trevluk]

23 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I was just trying to be funny. Nah, I get you, man. 

 

I'm not with you on Simmonds' prognosis, but I hope like hell that you're right and I'm wrong.  I just look at guys like Corey Perry.  He's older now, but his wheels started falling off about Wayne's age. 

 

It's not a knock on Wayne. Sometimes the real bright, hot fires just burn out faster. 

 

But I am with you on your frustration in general.  I'm actually bullish on the Flyers near term future so long as Fletcher doesn't screw it up.  It's that last part I'm scared to death about. I have zero confidence in his ability. 

 

I also have zero confidence in Fletcher and actually liked a lot of what Hexy did. Sadly he wrote his own ticket out of town by not being flexible. Ironically, in hindsight we would have been better off if Mgt had kept Hak and Hex through this god awful season and if Hex still wouldn't budge then send them both packing but I think by then Hex would have seen the writing on the wall and cut Hak free and made a strong play for Q.

 

It seems like all the analysts agree that Nashville got the better end of this deal by far but I guess time will tell. Maybe Hartman becomes a strong 2nd liner at a reasonable price and hopefully we at least get a 3rd out of it. If Nashville exits in the first round its obviously bad for both teams, but I could easily see the Preds coming out of the west and I think Wayne is going to be really strong for them. Poile has made some great moves this year, including this trade.

 

I am encouraged by your optimism on the short term of the Flyers because I respect your opinions on this board but I am curious where your bullish forecast comes from? I am not seeing anything short term to get that excited about but I do like some of the younger guys to build around and Hart has potential to be our answer in net but way too early to make that call.

[OccamsRazor]

I thought Hartman had a very good first game tonight.

 

Made his presence felt. Showed some good instincts and hustle.

 

I look for him to get even better once he gets some practice time.

[elmatus]

9 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I thought Hartman had a very good first game tonight.

 

Made his presence felt. Showed some good instincts and hustle.

 

I look for him to get even better once he gets some practice time.

 

Yeah, I agree. He was definitely noticeable. Simple kind of game, but he looks tenacious as all hell and sturdy on those skates. He may never be Simmonds in his prime, but then we just weren't going to get that from anywhere really. Hopefully Hartman can keep this up. I know it's an extremely small sample size, but so far so good.

 

I have to say though: Hartman has never played this way that I know of when in Chicago or Nashville. His scouting report suggested this was the type of player he'd be in the NHL, but he never became that guy. I wonder how much coaching systems played a part in that. Chicago and Nashville are not exactly known for this type of play. I wonder if he was essentially being coached out of it. If so, this may be him returning to a style of play he tends to prefer personally.

 

That's just hypothesis at this point, but I do think it's worth noting anyway.

 

To add something to this too: The current Flyer Hartman most reminded me of is Raffl. Raffl is also a very tenacious guy who likes to battle hard, but who doesn't really have the top end finishing skill required to be a true top six guy. Hartman seems similar to me in this very small sample, with the very notable exception of physicality. Hartman played a much more physical game than Raffl does. Almost like a Raffl + Rinaldo combination.

 

And honestly I'm completely fine with that. Raffl has always been a very good bottom six guy imo, and we need those guys. I'll take another one in Hartman for sure. If we can somehow find an equally fast and tenacious center, they could make one hell of a checking line.

[LegionOfDoom]

I think Laughton can be his center and Raffl on his left.

 

Maybe something like this for now:

 

G/ Couts/ Jake

Lindblom/ Patrick / TK

JVR/ Laughts / Hartman

Raffle /Corban/...

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said:

I think Laughton can be his center and Raffl on his left.

 

Maybe something like this for now:

 

G/ Couts/ Jake

Lindblom/ Patrick / TK

JVR/ Laughts / Hartman

Raffle /Corban/...

 

 

Just plug Varone on the wing on the 4th.

 

Sit Mcdud and let Meyers play and you can do this.

[brelic]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Just plug Varone on the wing on the 4th.

 

Sit Mcdud and let Meyers play and you can do this.

 

The only reason I like 7 defensemen is that it cuts a chunk out of Provorov's TOI. He played 22 minutes last night.

 

In most defensive categories, Provorov is pulling up the rear along with Hagg. His numbers just aren't very good. And I get that he's being asked to be a #1 and play against top competition every night, so he has much harder assignments. But cutting his ice time in this way spreads the workload around a bit more evenly. 

 

 

[elmatus]

17 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

The only reason I like 7 defensemen is that it cuts a chunk out of Provorov's TOI. He played 22 minutes last night.

 

In most defensive categories, Provorov is pulling up the rear along with Hagg. His numbers just aren't very good. And I get that he's being asked to be a #1 and play against top competition every night, so he has much harder assignments. But cutting his ice time in this way spreads the workload around a bit more evenly. 

 

 

 

The very noticeable drop in Provorov's play is probably the single biggest worry for me honestly. I can only hope his substantial defensive lapses are akin to sophomore scoring slumps somehow, though I feel like the latter is rather easier to explain than the former.

 

Put another way, last season he looked like a franchise level, perennial norris candidate in the making; this season he looks like a potential top four kind of guy. The drop has been tremendous. 

[OccamsRazor]

12 minutes ago, elmatus said:

The very noticeable drop in Provorov's play is probably the single biggest worry for me honestly.

 

Well for starters he doesn't have the most defensively sound partner to help with his chores.

 

That has to be taken in to consideration Sanheim has a lot to clean up with his defensive responsibilities and I'm not busting his balls just pointing it out.

 

He isn't  alone the so called vet needs a lot of work too.

 

It is why I wish they would take the damn training wheels off Myers put him with Ivan, reunite Gudas and Sanheim and then you can pair Ghost with Hagg till Morin is ready for a look. No harm in seeing how that looks.

 

And Mcdud you can just fire into the sun.

 

This is how I would roll with the lineup.

 

Then you can insert Varone back on the 4th so there is balance and lines don't have to be juggled.

 

You could spread the minutes out among the D pairs to with more stability.

[brelic]

17 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

The very noticeable drop in Provorov's play is probably the single biggest worry for me honestly. I can only hope his substantial defensive lapses are akin to sophomore scoring slumps somehow, though I feel like the latter is rather easier to explain than the former.

 

Put another way, last season he looked like a franchise level, perennial norris candidate in the making; this season he looks like a potential top four kind of guy. The drop has been tremendous. 

 

From Doughty to Coburn haha.

 

Let's get back to Doughty level, please.

 

[JR Ewing]

25 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

The very noticeable drop in Provorov's play is probably the single biggest worry for me honestly. I can only hope his substantial defensive lapses are akin to sophomore scoring slumps somehow, though I feel like the latter is rather easier to explain than the former.

 

Put another way, last season he looked like a franchise level, perennial norris candidate in the making; this season he looks like a potential top four kind of guy. The drop has been tremendous. 

 

This one goes with a truism which is as old as it is correct: development doesn't necessarily occur in a straight line.

 

[elmatus]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

That has to be taken in to consideration Sanheim has a lot to clean up with his defensive responsibilities and I'm not busting his balls just pointing it out.

 

haha, well, I'm afraid I don't share that assessment of Sanheim with you. I actually find Sanheim to be growing very well at this point.

 

Provo spent much of last season with Ghost, who really isn't any kind of defensive juggernaut either. Yet somehow the Provocop prevailed and became a one man aegis on the back end. He was the difference maker there, not Ghost. This year, he just hasn't been that same guy.

 

Again, he's very young, I'm more than willing to give him a pass. I just really hope it's just a temporary lapse and nothing more. I want a true franchise dman for the first time in forever. He showed that level of ability before. Here's to hoping he can clean up and show it again in the future.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, elmatus said:

haha, well, I'm afraid I don't share that assessment of Sanheim with you. I actually find Sanheim to be growing very well at this point.

 

Sounds like you're just over looking his mistakes then don't worry you're not alone.

 

He has a good bit to brush up on. But don't let me rain on your parade.

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Provo spent much of last season with Ghost, who really isn't any kind of defensive juggernaut either.

 

Sure and see this is what makes it so difficult you guys will point a mistake Ghost makes and yet Sanheim seems to get the free pass.

 

It is why I find it hard to follow up with some of you folks just give up and let you think what you will of them.

 

Ghost has issues and Travis too. Even Ivan need some work still. In fact the whole bunch.

 

But to single out Ghost and not Sanheim just loses a lot of merit with me. Which you may care less about but I still am voicing how i feel about it.

 

Carry on.

[elmatus]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure and see this is what makes it so difficult you guys will point a mistake Ghost makes and yet Sanheim seems to get the free pass.

 

I'm not saying Sanheim makes no mistakes. Not a single dman on the roster has played well this year. Full stop. There are no exceptions.

 

I do like Sanheim a fair bit. I think he shows more defensive ability than Ghost and considerable upside to go along with it. I think he will end up more rounded than Ghost in that regard when all is said and done. I also think I'm far from being alone in that assessment of him, but obviously opinions are just that. None of us have a crystal ball, and only time will tell.

 

Will he be a top pairing guy? That I don't know. He might, or he may be more of a second pairing and pp QB kind of guy. I'm fine if that's what he becomes though. We should have Provo shoring up the top pair after all, assuming he regains his form. That should give us some flexibility for #2. We can afford to wait and see if Myers turns out to be better, or if Ghost and Provo can return to their good cop, bad cop routine from much of last season, or maybe it will be Sanheim. Hell it could be Morin for all I know. Let's wait and see.

 

I think the difference for me with Sanheim and Ghost is that Ghost is essentially a known quantity at this point and Sanheim is not. Ghost is unlikely to magically become a two-way force in the NHL. Sanheim still has room to grow, has shown better defensive skill already imo, and still seems to be evolving in his playstyle. So yes, I suppose I am more willing to give him a bit of a pass for now. That won't last forever of course, but it's the same pass I offered Ghost back when he was in that situation (I'm also giving it to Provo after this season). Now it's Sanheim's turn.

[OccamsRazor]

Friedman explained, “I think Winnipeg thought they had Wayne Simmonds. They were preparing it and Wayne Simmonds had to waive his no-trade to go to Winnipeg, and it never happened.” Friedman said that the reason Simmonds ended up in Nashville was that it wasn’t required he waive his no-trade clause to go there and Philly had fewer issues making that deal in the final hour.

 

 

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-rumors-february-27-2019/

 

 

It is believed the Predators offered Ryan Hartman to Carolina for Ferland prior to the team using Hartman to acquired Wayne Simmonds.

 

Hhhhmmmmm....makes sense Ferland is a better player than Simmer and younger and plays a better all around game.

 

Simmer is a power play specialist or use to be...

[sekkes85]

On 2/26/2019 at 9:50 PM, OccamsRazor said:

I thought Hartman had a very good first game tonight.

 

Made his presence felt. Showed some good instincts and hustle.

 

I look for him to get even better once he gets some practice time.

 

Def looked good his first game.  Had some huge (and clean) hits, 4/5 shots on net, and showed some real good speed even beating out an icing call.  Was all around good hustle and solid play.  If he can bury those shots every now and then we got ourselves a damn good player.

 

Not understanding why so many fans are unhappy with this deal thinking we got fleeced.  As several have mentioned you are thinking of Simmonds value with your heart and memory of his production/value in the past.  He is not quick enough to be effective anymore.  Also Nashville traded a 1st for Hartman last year so just pretend we got a 1st and a conditional 4th for Simmonds if that will make the masses happy.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, sekkes85 said:

Not understanding why so many fans are unhappy with this deal thinking we got fleeced.

 

It's just Flyer fans they over rate the ones they love and they love to complain about the one that got away stuff as soon as they go somewhere else and has any kind of success.

 

Oh wait till Simmonds scores his first goal these board will melt down with rants saying "see I told you we should have never traded that guy yahdah yahdah yahdah..."

 

[vis]

On 2/26/2019 at 4:22 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

I thought he'd get a prospect/player like the one he got, and a 2nd. Again, it's not a big deal...just like overpaying someone by, say, half a million isn't. But when you keep doing that over and over, it becomes a bigger deal.

Fair criticism on the pick, but I'm not losing much sleep over it.  My guess is that pick (round and conditions) was the last remaining issue and Fletcher blinked.  Maybe Fletcher wanted a conditional 2/3.  Poile balked.  I was a little surprised there wasn't a conditional pick based on whether he'd resign with Nashville.  Maybe it's a virtual certainty he won't resign there and therefore Poile didn't give it much thought.  Also, little concerned about the Preds satisfying that condition.  I don't want the Preds slipping and having to play the Blues in the first round.  Would much rather they play Minnesota.

 

For now, I've kind of put Fletcher's track history with Minnesota out of mind.  Different situation there than here.  GMs, like coaches, should learn from past experience and adapt to new situations.  I'll give Fletcher the chance to demonstrate that.  This one move won't change my view.  We'll see what he does this summer.

[flyercanuck]

55 minutes ago, vis said:

Fair criticism on the pick, but I'm not losing much sleep over it.  My guess is that pick (round and conditions) was the last remaining issue and Fletcher blinked.  Maybe Fletcher wanted a conditional 2/3.  Poile balked.  I was a little surprised there wasn't a conditional pick based on whether he'd resign with Nashville.  Maybe it's a virtual certainty he won't resign there and therefore Poile didn't give it much thought.  Also, little concerned about the Preds satisfying that condition.  I don't want the Preds slipping and having to play the Blues in the first round.  Would much rather they play Minnesota.

 

 Poile is certainly a savvy gm.

 

55 minutes ago, vis said:

 

For now, I've kind of put Fletcher's track history with Minnesota out of mind.  Different situation there than here.  GMs, like coaches, should learn from past experience and adapt to new situations.  I'll give Fletcher the chance to demonstrate that.  This one move won't change my view.  We'll see what he does this summer.

 

 So far Fletcher hasn't done anything that I'd call bad. I do look at his track record and am not overly thrilled. He hasn't been "taken" in his trades here, but I would say he got the lesser in both of them...if only slightly. His first deal gave one of the worst managed teams in hockey a younger goalie at a way better cap hit... for a guy who we don't even know if he exists yet.

 

If he stops doing that over and over (a la Homer and his throwing in of 2nds) then I'll stop knocking his deals. But so far he's 0 for 2 on the trade front as far as looking like a guy who calls the shots.

[mojo1917]

@vis

Do we (the general wisdom we ) think St Louis will do anything in the playoffs ?

I know they're playing great right now, but there's an institutional dna expression for coming up small in that organization. 

Brayden Schenn is one of their top guys....

 

I don't see it.

There would need to be a "Penguins Defense" level injury event happening in NSH for them to get beaten by St Louis.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Someone said and I can't remember who now i have looked at so many comments on it that the Flyers were wanting Fabbro but Nashville wanted more for him.

 

So the Flyers settled on Hartman don't quote me on all that but I swear I read it somewhere (I hope it wasn't Ek I want to say Friedman).

 

But I am skittish on college prospect who were drafted by another team...Fabbro could just Jimmey Vesey them.

 

No thanks.

[brelic]

39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Someone said and I can't remember who now i have looked at so many comments on it that the Flyers were wanting Fabbro but Nashville wanted more for him.

 

So the Flyers settled on Hartman don't quote me on all that but I swear I read it somewhere (I hope it wasn't Ek I want to say Friedman).

 

But I am skittish on college prospect who were drafted by another team...Fabbro could just Jimmey Vesey them.

 

No thanks.

 

It was Ek as far as I can tell. 

 

Whether or not his info is accurate, I think that it hints at a truth that we are always evaluating trades and moves with about 10% of the information.

 

So, assuming the truthiness of what he says in that there was a deal (or at the very least an effort) to move Elliott until finding out that Hart would be out for a while, that Raffl's value was low (5th rounder or less), that they tried to get Fabbro but Simmonds just wasn't fair value and wanted more, and that Ottawa wanted MUCH more from teams in the east for Stone than Vegas... it sounds like there just weren't very many favourable scenarios for Fletcher.

 

 

[vis]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

So far Fletcher hasn't done anything that I'd call bad. I do look at his track record and am not overly thrilled. He hasn't been "taken" in his trades here, but I would say he got the lesser in both of them...if only slightly. His first deal gave one of the worst managed teams in hockey a younger goalie at a way better cap hit... for a guy who we don't even know if he exists yet.

You know, it's a fair point.  I was questioning a little bit why he didn't prior a little more away from EDM since we were doing them a favor.  I shrugged it off.  Now, I kind of think he blinked on the Simmonds deal.  Individually, I don't think either is significant.  But if it continues, in the aggregate it could be problematic.  Like death by a million paper cuts.

 

I see this in real life.  Some folks are content enough with a certain outcome and are willing to leave a little something on the table.  Others go for every last remaining scrap.   Varies depending on how much fight someone has in them.

[vis]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

@vis

Do we (the general wisdom we ) think St Louis will do anything in the playoffs ?

I know they're playing great right now, but there's an institutional dna expression for coming up small in that organization. 

Brayden Schenn is one of their top guys....

 

I don't see it.

There would need to be a "Penguins Defense" level injury event happening in NSH for them to get beaten by St Louis.

 

Good points on the above.  But a goalie, if he continues the way he has, could be really tough to beat in the POs.  They have a talented forward group, probably capable of grinding out a PO series.  Do I think they continue at the same pace and carry into the POs?  No.  I think they peaked a little too early.  Still, I see them as a tougher opponent than the Wild, even if the Blues fall back to earth a little more.  Also, the Preds haven't played all that well lately.  So maybe their PO prospects are a little dicey no matter who they play.

[mojo1917]

8 minutes ago, vis said:

I see this in real life.  Some folks are content enough with a certain outcome and are willing to leave a little something on the table.  Others go for every last remaining scrap.   Varies depending on how much fight someone has in them.

Also, whether or not you plan on trying to do business with someone again. 

I still maintain much of life is about relationships. This may yet be my undoing  because  many younger cats are all about price.

I also think more than one thing can be true and I can do a deal where both sides benefit.  My glass is half full-but its whiskey!

 

This organization (Flyers) won't be getting any "solids" from Bill Poile after the Weber offer sheet. That was bridge burning 101. 

That of course was pre-Fletcher but i'm sure it factored into how NSH dealt with PHI and will so long as Homer is stalking the halls of the bank building.