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OccamsRazor

Wayne Simmonds traded for Ryan Hartman

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5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

But selling a dollar for 94 cents just doesn't make...sense.

 

It one sense it started as $69 million dollars (Richards' contract) and has been whistled and whittled to 94 cents. I know not really but kinda.  

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1 hour ago, trevluk said:

 

Probably true but I still don't like this trade and am so fed up with the management of this team. Wayne isn't having a great year but others are talking about him like his career is basically over and he is going to whither away. Nobody on the team is having a "great" year but I could easily see Wayne having a bounce back season next year and get back to what made him a beloved Flyer. I didn't know that he wanted 5 years at 8 mil though, that is a bit absurd and I'm glad the Flyers didn't entertain that thought. Hate to see him go and wish he would have been willing to stick around for less but I still think we should have gotten more for him. 

I was just trying to be funny. Nah, I get you, man. 

 

I'm not with you on Simmonds' prognosis, but I hope like hell that you're right and I'm wrong.  I just look at guys like Corey Perry.  He's older now, but his wheels started falling off about Wayne's age. 

 

It's not a knock on Wayne. Sometimes the real bright, hot fires just burn out faster. 

 

But I am with you on your frustration in general.  I'm actually bullish on the Flyers near term future so long as Fletcher doesn't screw it up.  It's that last part I'm scared to death about. I have zero confidence in his ability. 

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I don't know if Simm or any other player better each other, its only one thing, Flyers has at least 4 same type players like Simm, Nolan, JVR and Courter , so one of them has to go. I'm ok with Simm to go, as he is 3.5 mil already plus UFA and Flyers has 3.5 mil cap with Provorov to sign and many other players like even Raffl.

Hartman's goals highlight are looking like Danny Briere!. Yes I'm not smoking anything his scores for Chicago is looked like Danny Briere once again on ice. I'm not sure what is happened with him Nashville. Well Preds has never known for really high scoring team, plus this year they have lots good young players. I think it didn't work out for him in Preds something 

Edited by phlfly

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4 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

. It's not as if Hartman is chopped liver either

I wouldn't even bother chopping it. 

 

Look, I'm with you and OR on your assessments of Simmonds. I loved him while he was here but facts are facts. And the last two years have not been good. 

 

I'm even with you on Fletcher got what he could get. 

 

I'm not at all a fan of Hartman.  I think he's being oversold here in an attempt to justify the deal. He'll be okay on the fourth line. 

 

But as a first round pick and someone later traded for a first round pick, talk about a disappointment. And I read complaints on this very thread about Simmonds not staying out of the box.  Hold his beer. 

 

What is quite likely a 3rd round pick is nice, but it will be no lower than #72 overall. 

 

So best case scenario we got a first round pending RFA bust and 72nd pick in the draft. 

 

That's fine. I mean, I said in the shoutbox that something is better than nothing. And frankly, it's better than making the mistake of resigning Simmonds so we don't all end up hating a guy we all liked. 

 

I just wish people would stop making Hartman out to be anything. He's not. 

Edited by ruxpin
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10 minutes ago, phlfly said:

I don't know if Simm or any other player better each other, its only one thing, Flyers has at least 4 same type players like Simm, Nolan, JVR and Courter , so one of them has to go. I'm ok with Simm to go, as he is 3.5 mil already plus UFA and Flyers has 3.5 mil cap with Provorov to sign and many other players like even Raffl.

Hartman's goals highlight are looking like Danny Briere!. Yes I'm not smoking anything his scores for Chicago is looked like Danny Briere once again on ice. I'm not sure what is happened with him Nashville. Well Preds has never known for really high scoring team, plus this year they have lots good young players. I think it didn't work out for him in Preds something 

Briere. 

 

You're on crack. 

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27 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I just wish people would stop making Hartman out to be anything.

 

I guess I didn't read every post but what was said that he will be that you said he won't be?

 

I'm just not following.

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32 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Briere. 

 

You're on crack. 

Did u read my post completely or just as usually choose a parts you wanted. I said his goal, his shooting accuracy is amazing. 

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4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He put up 19 his rookie year on a bad Blackhawk team so we'll see.

 

The Haks were the #1 seed in the Central that year with 109 points. That's a far cry from bad.

 

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I think he will be on a line centered by Patrick and Laughton on the left side.

 

I don't think so. Probably Laughton at center with JVR on the wing. I think they'll continue with Giroux - Patrick - Konecny for a few more games. Otherwise they're going back to JVR - Giroux - Konecny, which just didn't work really well.

 

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

If he can help just not put the team down a man it will help a bunch he has basically half the penalties Simmer had.

 

Half the PIMs. Only 5 fewer minors, though. Tough to go back and figure everything out, but he had one ten minute for yelling at the ref after the offsides goal/hooking fiasco vs. Washington, and another at the very end of a game. He did have the one for hitting the linesman against Florida. I assume the three majors are fights. So he didn't put the Flyers down in manpower on the ice much more often.

 

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Plus he is a solid 5 on 5 guy who will actually back check not "pretend too"...hey i hope he works out.

 

Worst case they flip him for something else. I think they at least sign him to a two year deal after this year to carry him to 27 and UFA status.

 

Believe it or not, I actually don't mind the return. Hartman has speed, which the team needs. He has shown flashes of finishing ability. He has a bit of sandpaper to him, as well. And I figure that 4th becoming a 3rd is about as sure a thing as you can have in this league. While probably a bit less than most of us hoped, it's also probably, realistically, not a bad return. 

 

But none of this makes me comfortable with Fletcher as the GM, or with the management holding his strings. It certainly seems that despite the urgency to replace Hextall with a GM who would "do something!," not much has been done that will significantly alter the course of the franchise. 

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5 hours ago, phlfly said:

Did u read my post completely or just as usually choose a parts you wanted. I said his goal, his shooting accuracy is amazing. 

 

Yeah and even THAT is crap.

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5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I guess I didn't read every post but what was said that he will be that you said he won't be?

 

I'm just not following.

Well, I was specifically responding to the post I was quoting from.  I disagree that he's not chopped liver.    He's the poster child for chopped liver.  And I think we'll find out it's not even liver.

 

  
Quote

 

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I think he will be on a line centered by Patrick and Laughton on the left side.

 

 

This kind of thing.  Talk about an utterly horrendous line and a terrible waste of Patrick.  He's actually exactly Laughton.  That's not a horrible thing, but we already have a Laughton.   Hartman is a former first round bust.  That's it.  Period.  

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9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

So, several things.

 

First, there was a deal with Calgary that Simmonds veto'd. We don't know what the deal was. Could it have been better? Maybe. But this was the best deal the Flyers were going to get. They weren't getting a first round pick and a top prospect for Simmonds. It simply wasn't happening. Simmonds play has simply degraded, as it does with power forwards who are on the wrong side of 30. Watch Simmonds this year and he was really labouring with regards to his skating. He didn't have the same swagger on the power play that he usually does, which is his bread and butter. Age had caught up with him. Nobody in their right mind was going to pay a high price for Simmonds. Bob McKenzie, perhaps the best insider in all of hockey, posted on twitter that many of the pro scouts he talked to were very cautious about acquiring Simmonds. Nobody was paying a big price.

 

 

 We all know about the deal with Calgary. And I'm absolutely sure this was the best deal the Flyers were going to get...with Fletcher as their gm. I wasn't expecting a 1st and a top prospect. I was just expecting better than a 4th liner and a 3/4. 

 

9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

As for Timonen, Chicago overpaid for the veteran experience he brought to the table. On top of it, even before the blood clots kept him out most of the year, the prior year, Timonen still put up 35 points. The other thing to consider is that defensemen age better than power forwards. That's why the Flyers were able to extract two seconds out of Chicago. They weren't going to get that for Simmonds. I don't get why people are so hard done by that fact. The value with Simmonds wasn't there. To add to it, it certainly didn't help that the idiot GM in Ottawa sold his players for pennies on the dollar, driving down the value of UFA forwards. That also played a big part in Simmonds. Now, where I blame the Flyers is that they needed to unload Simmonds at the start of last summer. There was no way, even if Hextall were here, that they were going to get a superb deal for him. 

 

 Simmonds isn't a veteran presence?

 

 He's scored over 30 goals in years past. But like Timonen, that isn't now. But the fact was, Hextall was still able top pry top value out of him, whereas Fletcher hasn't done that in any trade. 

 

9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

As for Fletcher and being a GM in Minnesota, absolutely GMs rely on their scouts with regards to drafting. No matter how you slice and dice it, the scouts are the ones who are out there scouting the junior players, the European players, the NCAA players. Yes, some GMs will get out to the odd game to scout talent, but overall, GMs are relying strongly on their scouting staff with regards to drafting players. Minnesota's scouts absolutely sucked. That's not Fletcher's doing. He's now on a team and franchise that has one of, if not, the best scouting staff in the NHL. Competent and good scouts makes any GM's life easier. 

 

 I didn't start watching hockey this year. I know what scouts are thanks. 

 

 Fletcher was gm in Minnesota for NINE years...if the scouting wasn't on him then he wasn't doing his job, was he. 

 

9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

As for the Flyers, Hextall was fired because he basically cut off all communication with the people above him. That was apparent from Holmgren and Hextall's press conferences. I'd bet that if Hextall kept Holmgren and Scott apprised of everything, there would be no issues. Fact is, Hextall did not respect Scott in any way and that's going to lead to a short shelf life when you openly respect the CEO of the company you work for. The fact that Fletcher talks to everyone in the organization makes his job easier. If Fletcher were being pressured by Holmgren and Scott, do you not think he would have tried to swing for the fences and make a big move to try to qualify for a playoff spot? Exactly. He could have flipped all sorts of talent to acquire veterans that could have increased the Flyers chances for the playoffs, but he didn't. So, clearly he has a vision that he's communicated with Scott and Holmgren and they're satisfied with what he's doing.

 

 If Hextall kept those two clowns apprised of everything the whole world would have known about it on a daily basis..which is not how he operates. No, he didn't respect Scott or Holmgren. Neither do I.

 

 I am glad Fletcher hasn't made any big deals. Solely because I think he'll get taken in them.

 

9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

And don't forget, Fletcher has a HUGE ace up his sleeve in the organization in Bobby Clarke. Even though Clarke is a 'figure head' within the organization, his words probably carry more weight than Holmgren's do. So, he's got a backer that will defend him. Don't forget that Clarke is someone who values loyalty and Fletcher is someone he really likes, especially when you consider it was Clarke who helped Fletcher into the management side of things. 

 

 Look, I'm as big a Clarke fan as you are. But I look at Fletchers history as a gm and he looks like the kind of guy that can take a team with the deepest prospect pool in the league and some very good pieces on the team already and do no better than turn it into a perennial 1st or 2nd round playoff exit for a decade before he gets fired again. 

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

He's actually exactly Laughton.  That's not a horrible thing, but we already have a Laughton.   Hartman is a former first round bust.

 

Well i certainly hope he isn't a Laughton who himself has been disappointing.

 

However the Pred did give up a 1st for Hartman so there is a chance there is still something there to work with maybe some upside that needs to be sparked.

 

Fiala to struggled for the Preds so maybe there is a reason why that was.

 

What is really strange is the Flyers are going to finish the season with 8+ mill in cap space....hard to believe Chuck couldn't have found a contract to gamble on to utilize that cap space from anyone....as we said before it ain't like you can roll it over...just wasting away.

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 I disagree that he's not chopped liver.    He's the poster child for chopped liver.

 

And for the record we completely disagree on this.

 

I'm not sure what he is but man I can't right now call the guy chopped liver.

 

In a month or 20 games i may have a different opinion.

 

Till then I will remain cautiously optimistic!

 

Go Flyers beat those Eastern conference champs the Buffalo Sabres! :hehe:

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9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well i certainly hope he isn't a Laughton who himself has been disappointing.

 

However the Pred did give up a 1st for Hartman so there is a chance there is still something there to work with maybe some upside that needs to be sparked.

 

Fiala to struggled for the Preds so maybe there is a reason why that was.

 

What is really strange is the Flyers are going to finish the season with 8+ mill in cap space....hard to believe Chuck couldn't have found a contract to gamble on to utilize that cap space from anyone....as we said before it ain't like you can roll it over...just wasting away.

Some decent points in there and some things worth responding to. Won't be until much later, though, because I'm currently on my ugly commute. Chat later. 

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12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Fletcher got the best he could get. We're talking about an eroding asset that should have been dealt last year, but the previous GM didn't have to the stones to do it. Instead, Simmonds was hung onto for too long and this is the result. It's not as if Hartman is chopped liver either. He's a speedy player, tenacious on the forecheck and plays with a chip on his shoulder. He's the ideal checking line player capable of 15 goals/30 points per year.

Why do people keep saying this?  How do we know he got the best he could get?  Do you work with him?  Maybe, in his eyes, he got the best he thought was available. Does not mean it was the best return.

My guess is that he wanted a replacement player in the deal that could be slotted in the lineup now.  He and management still think they can make the playoffs and picks or prospects won't help now. It may have been the best return for this year, but I would bet my house there was a better offer that would help next year and beyond. I dont think we are going to like the trades he turned down to get this one (if they are leaked). 

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29 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Some decent points in there and some things worth responding to. Won't be until much later, though, because I'm currently on my ugly commute. Chat later. 

 

I hear ya I just got to work too. Ugh.

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13 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

How is this so bad??

 

Did you watch Simmonds play??

 

Did you want to give him a five year 8 mill per deal??

 

Ok then that is why they traded him he looked like shat all year hasn't had a goal in 11 games what did you think any GM who could see was going to give them for him???

 

Can't stay out the box and you don't even see him unless it's headed to the box after some scrum or he is trailing the play coasting pretending he is back checking.

 

He score 27 points all year. Dude is a power forward who skills have eroded and can't stay out the box.

 

Man Flyers fans really do over value their players. Who knows what Chuck could have got from the Flames Wayne shot it down.

 

So yeah this is about as good as you are going to get.

 

A 24 year old winger with some solid skills playing 5 on 5 and can play up on the 2nd if need be.

 

Wayne just didn't have any value and he has lost his touch on the PP. 

 

This isn't 2016-17 Wayne Simmonds he is on the down swing.

 

And who knows they could always turn around and move Hartman again for something.

 

I wish him well but his best years are behind him.

THIS. 

Simmonds was not coming back, he is looking for a final payday, James Neal did the same with Vegas and is a slug being drug up and down the 4th line (when he even manages to draw into the lineup) with Calgary. Andrew Ladd the same thing on the Island, Lucic the same with Edmonton. Nobody wants to get stuck with these guys long term at the end of their career. Simmonds is not done but there is a lot of wear and tear and he is clearly in decline and is an unrestricted free agent at years end does not have a ton of value. A decent forward in Hartman and likely a third rounder is a solid return and all that you could hope for. It doesn't hurt to ask for more, TSN says he refused a trade to Calgary I have tried to find what Calgary was offering but cannot find it anywhere, obviously if the Flyers were ready to trade him there the return was better but he had a no move clause in his contract. A third and Hartman is really not a horrible return.

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46 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And for the record we completely disagree on this.

 

I'm not sure what he is but man I can't right now call the guy chopped liver.

 

In a month or 20 games i may have a different opinion.

 

Till then I will remain cautiously optimistic!

 

Go Flyers beat those Eastern conference champs the Buffalo Sabres! :hehe:

We probably don't completely disagree, largely because I'm being extreme on the negative. 

 

Caution:  rambling post. 

 

So, I do think the comparison to Laughton is apt, if unfair to both players. Particularly to Hartman. 

 

I think it's important to note that Hartman was 30th overall. He probably negatively suffers from the "first rounder" tag. I mean, at 30 he's really pretty much a high second rounder.  If he's drafted even just a couple slots back, people are saying, "hey, the 2nd rounder has not only been in the league a few years, he's done okay for himself."  I've called him a bust several times, and that's admittedly horribly unfair. 

 

He did score 19 early. I think he failed horribly when tried on Chicago's top line, but perhaps too much too soon. Maybe that hurt confidence.  I have to imagine not only being drafted first round but then being traded for a first round comes with a high degree of pressure. 

 

It says something to me that Chicago traded their cheap first rounder to throw in for another crack at it, but maybe the message is Chicago gave up too soon. 

 

I think you're right on the "wait and see."  I mean, what did anyone legitimately expect from John LeClair when we traded for him (I'm not comparing and Hartman won't have Lindros. Just musing on the merits of "wait and see"). 

 

If Hartman can do the 20 goals and 15-20 assists from the 3 RW slot and be responsible/competent on 5v5, I think we've done well. Especially depending upon what the 3rd rounder becomes. 

 

We agree on the "as well as we could have."  In retrospect, we waited too long. I think we probably could have done better a week or two ago, especially on the draft pick side of things. Maybe there's an argument for "should have known," but I do think it's largely an "in retrospect" criticism.  Fletcher isn't the only one who missed those tea leaves. 

 

So yeah, it's not a moment to be jumping off bridges or lighting torches. You're right, it's a wait and see and hope for the best moment. 

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16 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

If Hartman can do the 20 goals and 15-20 assists from the 3 RW slot and be responsible/competent on 5v5, I think we've done well. Especially depending upon what the 3rd rounder becomes. 

 

Yes this is a decent expectation I think he has a better scoring touch than Laughton.

 

Is part of the reason Laughton's best season was 10 goals.

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35 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

THIS. 

Simmonds was not coming back, he is looking for a final payday, James Neal did the same with Vegas and is a slug being drug up and down the 4th line (when he even manages to draw into the lineup) with Calgary. Andrew Ladd the same thing on the Island, Lucic the same with Edmonton. Nobody wants to get stuck with these guys long term at the end of their career. Simmonds is not done but there is a lot of wear and tear and he is clearly in decline and is an unrestricted free agent at years end does not have a ton of value. A decent forward in Hartman and likely a third rounder is a solid return and all that you could hope for. It doesn't hurt to ask for more, TSN says he refused a trade to Calgary I have tried to find what Calgary was offering but cannot find it anywhere, obviously if the Flyers were ready to trade him there the return was better but he had a no move clause in his contract. A third and Hartman is really not a horrible return.

 

Hello voice of reason.

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13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hello voice of reason.

Now you've done it. That's going to go straight to his head. 

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Couple of things, the Flyers playing well lately for certain put the Kai-bosh  on dealing Simmonds " weeks  ago", two weeks ago Carter Hart was winning the Calder and Vezina and the Flyers were maybe sneaking up to win a round in the Playoffs...so people should just top with their 20/20 recent hindsight. 

Also, Simmonds is now like a bionic person after all of the surgeries from last year, a reconstructed jaw, hip, hand... dude was rebuilt during the last 11 months, he's not going to be "his old self" for a little while and because of all the surgeries he may never be that old self. He may have to be something different.  

He was one of my favorite Flyers, Mrs Mojo would always be telling me "stop with the Simmonds talk already, he's good and tough, I get it".  So I am not happy that he's not on my favorite team anymore.

 

That we got a player whose game seems to compare to Chris Kunitz's, isn't a terrible thing, even if he winds up being Kunitz-lite...Okay.  I hated playing against that guy, he was tough , a douche if you're in the wrong colored sweater, and he managed to make enough plays that you couldn't just write him off as being just an asshole. 

 

Then, about the possible 3rd rounder....that's where Ghost came from, that's a swing for the fences pick that busts as much as it hits...having an extra one makes taking a flier on a little high skill guy or big fast skating guy...fine. more prospects for the pipeline. 

Simmonds didn't walk and make a hole. The return isn't what we were hoping for but it is something.  Hartman is cheaper, younger faster, seems excited to being coming to Philadelphia, Imma see where it leads.

Fletcher has not destroyed the team as yet, and seems to actually have the same sort of vision regarding the prospects and team as Hextall. 

This season has been a disappointment, but there were a lot of factors going into it. 8 starting goaltenders ? that's satire material. 

So far despite all the machinations, there seems to be less players i hate on the roster , one less I really liked, that was happening anyway. The set up hasn't been ruined.  

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, phlfly said:
11 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Briere. 

 

You're on crack. 

Did u read my post completely or just as usually choose a parts you wanted. I said his goal, his shooting accuracy is amazing. 

 

His SH% is average for an NHL'er.  Here are his complete stats.  Nothing here screams that his shooting accuracy is amazing.  I'm with @ruxpin on this one, with the wait and see concept.  "IF" he can score 20-25 goals to go along with about 20-25 assists from the 3rd Line then we will revisit this topic and conversation.  Put me down as I will will hold my breath and wait and see approach.

 

image.png.afb6ffd948d576d7d46e6e7e8b46c49a.png

 

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2 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

His SH% is average for an NHL'er.  Here are his complete stats.  Nothing here screams that his shooting accuracy is amazing.  I'm with @ruxpin on this one, with the wait and see concept.  "IF" he can score 20-25 goals to go along with about 20-25 assists from the 3rd Line then we will revisit this topic and conversation.  Put me down as I will will hold my breath and wait and see approach.

 

 

 

I'm saying just as I watched highlight and his shot is really good while he was with Chicago. Last time I have seen same accure shot it was Briere. Yes he doesn't have skills as Briere but most goals are not lucky shots

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Couple things that will be unpopular... haha.

 

1. Hartman is not a first round bust. Taken last in the 1st round in 2013, he's actually better or on par with everyone drafted after him except Guentzel, Duclair, and Bjorkstrand (all 3rd rounders). I mean, isn't that what a draft pick is supposed to be? Better than those picked after him? There are the odd gems here and there, and he doesn't seem to be one of them - if he were, he wouldn't have been traded.

 

You know who is a 1st round bust so far? Sam Morin. Nichushkin. Rychel. Poirier. Shinkaruk. McCarron. Klimchuk. Dickinson. 

 

All taken ahead of Hartman. 

 

He's a 3rd line RW and we kinda needed one after moving Simmer. He has 20 games to show he deserves a longer shot with the Flyers over guys in our pipeline who are still just magic beans.

 

2. Simmonds likely contributed to the lowered return because he blocked a trade. Sure, he has the right to exercise that option in his contract, and I love Wayne the player and the human being. But at the end of the day, he decided that he couldn't handle a few months in the Canadian tundra playing for the best team in the West.

 

So that's not on Fletch. That's on Simmonds. 

 

 

 

 

 

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      How is this so bad??   Did you watch Simmonds play??   Did you want to give him a five year 8 mill per deal??   Ok then that is why they traded him he looked like shat all year hasn't had a goal in 11 games what did you think any GM who could see was going to give them for him???   Can't stay out the box and you don't even see him unless it's headed to the box after some scrum or he is trailing the play coasting pretending he is back checking.  
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    • 5
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      Sure, but we also have legal weed. We just laugh at the taxes instead.
    • 4
      Post
      I didn't realize it was Wpg that he blocked. I thought it was Calgary 😜
    • 4
      Post
      Good band though
    • 4
      Post
      I play a hard style. I like to hit and get into the dirty areas, get in the corners. I remember a picture playing in Nashville when we were playing the Flyers. I think it was five guys laying out in front of the net trying to block a shot. When I picture the Flyers uniform, I always picture that photo, so that’s the type of hockey I like — dedication to blocking shots and doing the little things right and playing the hard-nosed game like Flyers hockey is. - Ryan Hartman    
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