Has Scott Gordon done enough to be retained at the Flyers Head Coach for the 2019-2020 Season?

[Podein25]

59 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

console, cajole

 

Among the best two oles in the English language. There's also pozole, a Mexican stew (often pork), which is a great hangover remedy 

[ruxpin]

Just now, Podein25 said:

 

Among the best two oles in the English language. There's also pozole, a Mexican stew (often pork), which is a great hangover remedy 

Casserole? 

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

 

Among the best two oles in the English language. There's also pozole, a Mexican stew (often pork), which is a great hangover remedy 

A###ole? 

[FD19372]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

@King Knut, you wanna take this?

 

I actually see a hell of alot of difference. 

I don't actually remember what this is referring to. 

 

I'm okay with Q, but like I said to king, I'm really uncomfortable with it.  But since I can't explain even to myself why, I wouldn't necessarily argue against it. 

 

But honestly, I see a heck of alot of difference between the team under Gordon/Wilson (I have to include Wilson) and Hakstol/Murphy. 

See, I don't. While 5 on 5 play has improved somewhat, they are still ranked 20th on the power play at 17.7%. Their PK is ranked 27th at 77.5%. I'm not going to sit here and say ...it's just a coaching issue, and the players aren't responsible for some of it. 

[King Knut]

41 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

@King Knut, you wanna take this?

 

I actually see a hell of alot of difference. 

I don't actually remember what this is referring to. 

 

I'm okay with Q, but like I said to king, I'm really uncomfortable with it.  But since I can't explain even to myself why, I wouldn't necessarily argue against it. 

 

But honestly, I see a heck of alot of difference between the team under Gordon/Wilson (I have to include Wilson) and Hakstol/Murphy. 

 

I’ll start here and come back after the baby gets his bath:

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/flyers/flyers-have-been-heavily-outshot-during-win-streak-doesnt-tell-whole-story

 

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

See, I don't. While 5 on 5 play has improved somewhat, they are still ranked 20th on the power play at 17.7%. Their PK is ranked 27th at 77.5%. I'm not going to sit here and say ...it's just a coaching issue, and the players aren't responsible for some of it. 

Yeah, but as i posted above, you're still averaging in the horrible figures from before he's coach. 

 

The numbers post AllStar game are VASTLY better than, say, November.  Third best in the league. I know 16 games doesn't sound like much, but it's a 5th of the season. 

 

3rd best since the AllStar game.  I mean, they're 20th for the year, but do you understand what it takes to get there from last?  I mean  if we're talking about coach vs coach, you can't include the old coach's crap and hold it against the new. 26.5% since the AllStar break vs. 15.4% in November.  If that's not improvement, I don't know what is.  And I'm here to tell you, the PP has nothing to do with Carter Hart. 

 

The PK does arguably have to do with the goalie (not just arguably).  But still, 87.2% post AllStar game and at least 7 of the 15 games played by goalies not named Hart, versus 75% in November. 

 

I'm not discounting Hart, but I am saying this is more than him. 

 

I do think when he first came up it probably did instill some enthusiasm not just in the fan base but also in the team.  But Hart came up before Gordon did. The results were only meh. 

 

I can't insist it's Gordon. It very well could be the removal of Hakstol/Murphy.  But in any case, the coaching change has made a huge difference. Even in the defensive zone coverage. Not to say there isn't still bad coverage, but now it looks like mistakes rather than bad design. 

 

Who knows if it's addition or subtraction or mixture of both (my guess), but I point to coaching change. Primary assist to goalies. 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

We agree here, too.   I really do like the Keefe suggestion, but I think you're argument of why that's not likely is pretty good.  Sigh.

 

Well Keefe did get the better of Gordon in the playoffs last year if that means anything. 

 

And I’m not anti-gordon either.  I honestly don’t know. 

 

Its working for the time being that seems good. 

[vis]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

How does he suck before and not now?

Give him time. 

 

To be fair, he’s had good stretches and terrible ones.  He’s in a good game phase right now.  

[King Knut]

15 hours ago, vis said:

Probably right.  But I wouldn't put anything past Dave Scott.

 

Would have been nice for them to manage him a bit better.

 

At some point, do you question how the staff takes care of its goalies between games?  I mean, there are a number of workhorse goalies around the league.  Is there something they can be doing better in the training room?  Not trying to lay blame on the training staff.  Just wondering if the organization in general needs to re-think anything.

 

 

 

 

One thing that I read about coming up was practices.  Hakstol has them practicing hard and taking every shot in every practice which can actually be harder on them than a game apparently (going up and down a lot more potentially). 

 

Thats why I was a fan of carrying three goalies all year (before all the injuries) just so whoever was the predominant starter wouldn’t need to take all those practice minutes.  

 

outside that, I still think Hextall’s other major mistake this whole time was letting Reese go.  Berube was obviously on his way out and also obviously in the wrong in that situation. Siding with Reese (who was the first good goalie coach in 15 years or more) was really dumb and it’s cost them ever since.  I know it was a chain of command thing, but I don’t care. Wrong is wrong and Chief was wrong.  Hextall was great with player talent imho (once one accepts that Lehtera and Weise were never supposed to be “good players”) but just god awful evaluating coaching talent. 

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

It was a lot that.  But arguably in a psychological way more than what is justified by numbers.

 

Though, I think the biggest impetus for improvement was Gordon AND Wilson.  Or at least the subtraction of Hakstol and Murphy.

 

It is quite possible that Hakstol was actually worse than Stevens.  The fact I'm even questioning it says more about my disdain for Stevens' job here than any over-estimation of what Hakstol did(n't) do.

 

Stevens’ young teams made the conference finals with Marty Biron and essentially two D men who were both hurt and then lost to the eventual league anointed winners the next year but in the first round. 

 

I know you don’t like Stevens for valid reasons and I’m certainly not suggesting g you alter that view, but I think objectively, Hak was much worse than Stevens and lasted too damn long. 

 

 

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

This whole thing is dead on.  I completely agree about the shots.   Not only is the coverage better, but they are more aggressive.  I comically use the term "puck-hunting" but it kind of describes what they're doing vs. all four players standing to the goalie's left trying to describe cloud animals.

 

boom!  Precisely. 

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

Yes.  Agreed on both counts.   I didn't like the Lavvy firing.

 

Realistically, it was a mercy to Lavvy for the team Homer had cursed him with and the contracts that had cursed us all for so long.  Firing him may have been Homer’s finest human moment. 

 

But it I still hated it. 

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Yeah, it really  is strong.   Strong enough you'd think I could name it.  It's just a Spidey-sense kind of thing--to be a nerd about it.  He just doesn't seem like quite the right answer.

 

I was going to type earlier that maybe it's that I'm suspicious that at this point in his career he may not be great with a young team.  But you and I have both commented that this team actually could be right there if given the right structure mixed with the right voice.  So then I think, "why not?"

 

Maybe it's simply that I'm not convinced that his heart is in it.   Maybe that changes.  Maybe he's had time to lick wounds, and he's ready for another swing at it.  Maybe.

 

Like I said, I can't articulate it, but it's nagging at me.

 

 

I think when Q brushes his teeth, he’s got that same expression on his face so I’m not doubting his heart would be in it... but it’s worth considering.

 

i think for me if I dig down into the feeling it’s a bit of a sledge hammer when a scalpel is needed. 

 

I dont know enough about Q’s ins and outs to know if he’s actually both. 

 

This is team seems to need subtle guidance based on their individual talents and a big cheerleader.  

 

Gordon’s been extremely subtle, but he’s essentially empowered them out there to play better. 

 

Chief seems tobhave this “just work harder” mentality. Hak seemed to have a “you’re just not doing what I’m saying the right way.” Mentality. 

 

Neither realized that if they’re not working hard enough or doing what you’re saying it’s because you’re not getting them there.

 

Personal feelings aside, I do think Stevens was good at assessing what his players skill sets were and how to utilize that rather than trying to hammer home a square peg into a round hole.  

 

Lavvy was very good at this and had the added skill of helping them get to being good at things they weren’t necessarily great at before.  Gordon seems to be like that to some degree too. Though I admit Gordon seems less firey and I don’t know what to make about that. I do like  that he seems to have a sense ofbhunors and keeps the guys light. 

 

I honestly don’t know much about Keefe other than that he likes analytics and has an excellent track record. 

[King Knut]

11 hours ago, vis said:

he’s had good stretches and terrible ones  

 

There ain’t a goalie in the league that’s not true of, especially when his team hangs him out to dry.  Elliotts’s not Carey Price, and he’s not the most consistent guy in the league by far. But he’s Doing well enough consistently enough that I believe we have evidence that it wasn’t all on him when they were bad and it’s not all on him (or Hart) now that they’re playing well. 

[Poulin20]

15 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Not only do the Flyers give up a ton of shots, they are actually giving up MORE since the All-Star break than before.  They give up 37/g since and 30/g before.  Go figure.  As far as taking shots, they were 20th in the league before the break and 11th since, but the real numbers haven't changed in any appreciable way (33/g up from 30).

 

 

I wish I could find the article that I read indicating that Gordon is less focused on the number of SOG conceded and more focused on the location of the SOG conceded.  In other words he seemed fine giving up a lot of shots from low percentage scoring areas while keeping the opposition out of the high percentage scoring areas.

[Cheesesteak]

17 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Yeah, it really  is strong.   Strong enough you'd think I could name it.  It's just a Spidey-sense kind of thing--to be a nerd about it.  He just doesn't seem like quite the right answer.

 

I was going to type earlier that maybe it's that I'm suspicious that at this point in his career he may not be great with a young team.  But you and I have both commented that this team actually could be right there if given the right structure mixed with the right voice.  So then I think, "why not?"

 

Maybe it's simply that I'm not convinced that his heart is in it.   Maybe that changes.  Maybe he's had time to lick wounds, and he's ready for another swing at it.  Maybe.

 

Like I said, I can't articulate it, but it's nagging at me.

Just to play Devil's advocate, Q could come back after some time off with a rejuvenated passion for the game and a job he loves. 

[Cheesesteak]

16 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

Among the best two oles in the English language. There's also pozole, a Mexican stew (often pork), which is a great hangover remedy 

You might be thinking Menudo....an awfully disgusting soup as the hangover cure.  I tried it once for that...NEVER AGAIN.

 

 

Rigamarole!

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

Rigamarole!

 

Brilliant! That's not a word you hear everyday. I'm gonna make an effort to use it everyday for the rest of the week. 

 

4 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

You might be thinking Menudo....an awfully disgusting soup as the hangover cure.  I tried it once for that...NEVER AGAIN.

 

No, I've had Menudo. I think it's made with tripe or something equally offal (get it, offal!!). Pozole, or posole is a pork or chicken, or both, stew with hominy and mild red chillis (e.g., anchos). It's very good, especially with lots of toppings like avocado, cabbage, raddish, sour cream, salsa etc

[vis]

4 hours ago, King Knut said:

One thing that I read about coming up was practices.  Hakstol has them practicing hard and taking every shot in every practice which can actually be harder on them than a game apparently (going up and down a lot more potentially). 

Exactly.  I'm not sure how other coaches handle workhorse goaltenders, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me.  Given that Hart also got hurt, I wonder if this is a goalie coach issue as opposed to a head coach?

 

[vis]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

But he’s Doing well enough consistently enough that I believe we have evidence that it wasn’t all on him when they were bad and it’s not all on him (or Hart) now that they’re playing well. 

Not entirely, but good goaltending goes a very long way to covering up bad play or bad coaching.

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, vis said:

Exactly.  I'm not sure how other coaches handle workhorse goaltenders, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me.  Given that Hart also got hurt, I wonder if this is a goalie coach issue as opposed to a head coach?

 

 

Not sure.  As things have been so far this season, I'm sure Hart had to play a lot of practice minutes simply because first Stolarz, then Elliott was injured and Talbot was lost on the Trans Candadian Highway someplace.  

 

I will say that I blame Fletcher for some of Hart's too many starts (especially the home and home vs. detroit) because he traded Stolarz at such a time when Elliott wasn't ready yet and that run of 3 games in 4 days was coming up and he should have known there would be Visa issues with Talbot.  It wasn't smart.  But then Gordon played him two more games after Elliott was ready and he got shelled (and maybe hurt) and ELliott had to play both those games anyway, which then required that Elliott--returning from Injury mind you--5 games in a row himself because Talbot... wtf was the deal with Tablot not playing anyway?

 

 

[King Knut]

12 minutes ago, vis said:

Not entirely, but good goaltending goes a very long way to covering up bad play or bad coaching.

 

Depends.

 

Good goaltending in the way I think of good goaltending (square to the shooter, rebound control) can go a long way to making overall play better and to making a coach's system more functional.  But I also think an amazing goalie who can make a lot of impossibly acrobatic saves but can't control a rebound or calm play down in his own end can make a good, well coached team play much much worse.  

 

Then there are cases like the Kings and Rangers were having two of the best goalies can't help you much at all.

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, Poulin20 said:

 

I wish I could find the article that I read indicating that Gordon is less focused on the number of SOG conceded and more focused on the location of the SOG conceded.  In other words he seemed fine giving up a lot of shots from low percentage scoring areas while keeping the opposition out of the high percentage scoring areas.

I really believe this is the right approach.  Didn't Lavvy do that, too? Or was it Stevens? 

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, Cheesesteak said:

Just to play Devil's advocate, Q could come back after some time off with a rejuvenated passion for the game and a job he loves. 

Yep, I think that's valid. 

 

This is one of the things keeping me from a hard and fast opinion either way.   But just an odd feeling about it. 

[vis]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

I will say that I blame Fletcher for some of Hart's too many starts (especially the home and home vs. detroit) because he traded Stolarz at such a time when Elliott wasn't ready yet and that run of 3 games in 4 days was coming up and he should have known there would be Visa issues with Talbot.

Bit of a stretch to blame Fletcher for that.