EJ0226 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 14 hours ago, EmptyShelf said: He has admittedly become a HATER, but hates the Haters (who call out 9, 20 or the Wild). It can be confusing. I don't think either of our comments disparaged the Staal contract amount, or re-signing. In fact, I have always really liked Staal (and on the Wild), I just noted the 'slow down' factor that hits most at 30+ that have as many years/games as Staal does. To me, he is a future HOF inductee, and has a Cup; which Klyde never was or will have (and for $2MM/year less during one of his last contracts). I am just still searching for a Plan from Fenton; but Staal could fit as THE veteran center and Captain: just get rid of Klyde and call it a day You are correct. Staal is a Hof'er and has won a cup. Something not only Koivu will never have but Suter and Parise unless those two jump ship and go elsewhere. Hate it or like it, Parise and Suters contract really do anchor the team to select decisions. Their hit on the salary cup is beyond way to much for what they provide. Neither are game changers. Both have shown multiply long streaks of droughts. Both are going to decline, well Suter is really far into the decline but Parise will start to see it soon. We still have 6 more years of each one of these guys hitting our Cap with $7,753,462.00 a year. It's easier to swallow when they are elite talent and have brought the team to the promise land but both are neither of those. Bad contracts suck. Bad contracts that alter the team and their decision making are crippling. Parise and Suter are the latter. Maybe it's time for Fenton to put it all on Suter and Parise. Come out and announce you are going to ask them to either renegotiate their contracts or waive their NTC so that he can better the team and give them a shot. The Wild owe them nothing. Maybe it's time to make them not feel so welcomed. I know it's a pipe dream as more then likely Suter and Fenton go out and grab supper after each game together and Fenton uses the company card to pay for it. I am sure Suter has Fenton so wrapped around his finger that Suter go probably go out there and start figure skating the whole game and Fenton would make sure Suter has no reduced TOI. The team overall is a heartless team with no direction or soul. You will have a handful of guys going 100% well the rest skate out there like they want to make sure they are conserving as much energy as possible to play golf in the off season. You got a ton of guys that give the same generic answer to their issues and try to hide the real issues well maybe one or two players like Foligno who actually tell what the issues are and call out people. You get guys that sign big contracts and stop showing up, cough Suter, cough Zucker and face zero punishment but then you have guys like Haula, Nino, etc that either are being forced to play a style they can't or hit a skid and are gone even though they are out there trying. Then you see something where Parise and Suter go out on their own and hire Oates to "help them on the PP" and completely ignore their coach and even bring this guy to their practice. You don't see Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, etc pulling that stunt. It allows the team to know they are above everything. They suffered no punishment for it. I am sure there are some people who just love seeing the Wild suffer and choke. Those really are the haters. Then you have people who hate seeing the stuff above that I listed happen. We want nothing more then a cup run and win. I would take 1 Cup win over 4 Super Bowls and I also love football. But people like me are also frustrated and fed up with such things like above happening. Teams that make a serious run at the cup don't fight those issues like the Wild do. The core is now old and declining. Guys like Suter, Parise and Koivu should be getting 3rd to 4th line minutes. This might also help them have something come playoff time. Let the younger guys take over. Don't try to put guys that are hot with Suter, Parise and Koivu to get them going. They are vets and supposedly stars so they shouldn't need that help. It's disheartening to see all of this. And there is a real problem with "fans" being ok with these issues happening. No, nobody should be ok or sticking up for them for pulling of these issues. I predicted that we would miss the playoffs this season but thought if Fenton is worth his salt we would make a turn around. With the trades we have done and the way he favors Nashville players over everything I know worry we could be in a long streak of no playoffs. I don't see anybody really stepping up and becoming a superstar scoring machine. We got a lot of questions going into this offseason that I don't think we will get answers for in the next few years. I don't know what the real solution is. I just know as a fan it's disheartening to see the same issues over and over with no changes being made. I do feel bad for one person on this team, Bruce Boudreau. Like him or hate him, you do got to admit he is a good coach. Yes he never one a cup but there is a lot of good coaches who never won it all. He has never had a dysfunctional team like this though. And I do believe he is handcuffed on what he can do. We have seen him cut back star players TOI when they got older but yet Koivu, Suter and Parise still eat up the most TOI even when they are being very inefficient. BB is not stupid and wants to win it all so he isn't going to keep running the same PP units that don't work over and over. He never was switching players on a line as much as he is here. And it seems that most of the time the players being switch are being switched to help get the big 3 going. Something doesn't smell right and I don't think it's all on BB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 20 hours ago, EJ0226 said: Maybe it's time for Fenton to put it all on Suter and Parise. Come out and announce you are going to ask them to either renegotiate their contracts or waive their NTC so that he can better the team and give them a shot. The Wild owe them nothing. Maybe it's time to make them not feel so welcomed. I know it's a pipe dream as more then likely Suter and Fenton go out and grab supper after each game together and Fenton uses the company card to pay for it. I am sure Suter has Fenton so wrapped around his finger that Suter go probably go out there and start figure skating the whole game and Fenton would make sure Suter has no reduced TOI. It's not Fenton. It's Liepold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 20 hours ago, EJ0226 said: Maybe it's time for Fenton to put it all on Suter and Parise. Come out and announce you are going to ask them to either renegotiate their contracts or waive their NTC so that he can better the team and give them a shot. The Wild owe them nothing. Maybe it's time to make them not feel so welcomed. I know it's a pipe dream as more then likely Suter and Fenton go out and grab supper after each game together and Fenton uses the company card to pay for it. I am sure Suter has Fenton so wrapped around his finger that Suter go probably go out there and start figure skating the whole game and Fenton would make sure Suter has no reduced TOI. According to the CBA, teams and players cannot renegotiate contracts, even if they both are amenable. And since it's a contract, neither side can just "waive" things they don't like. It's not like the NFL, where "contracts" really aren't contracts and the owners can just tear them up whenever they feel like it. The Wild are stuck with the Parise and Suter contracts for the next six seasons. Even if Parise and Suter retire tomorrow, the team will still have the cap hit for the next six seasons. Personally, I think Leipold figured he'd pull a fast one and sign Parise and Suter to an obnoxious contract to get them on his team so he could get a Winter Classic and make a run at the Cup, and then halfway through their deal they'd just retire and the cap hit would come off the books. Because that's what he could do under the old CBA. But then Bettman changed the rules with the new CBA and made it apply retroactively to contracts that were signed prior to the new CBA. Now teams were stuck with player contracts for the length of the contract, however long it is. So as much as I'm sure we would all like to see the Parise and Suter contracts come off the books, the team is stuck with those two contracts until 2025. The only way those contracts are coming off the Wild books is if the Wild find themselves in a situation like Chicago did with Marian Hossa. The player retired and waived his NTC/NMC clause and allowed the Blackhawks to trade his contract to Arizona, because Arizona needed to make the salary floor but didn't want to pay anyone to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, IllaZilla said: According to the CBA, teams and players cannot renegotiate contracts, even if they both are amenable. And since it's a contract, neither side can just "waive" things they don't like. It's not like the NFL, where "contracts" really aren't contracts and the owners can just tear them up whenever they feel like it. The Wild are stuck with the Parise and Suter contracts for the next six seasons. Even if Parise and Suter retire tomorrow, the team will still have the cap hit for the next six seasons. Personally, I think Leipold figured he'd pull a fast one and sign Parise and Suter to an obnoxious contract to get them on his team so he could get a Winter Classic and make a run at the Cup, and then halfway through their deal they'd just retire and the cap hit would come off the books. Because that's what he could do under the old CBA. But then Bettman changed the rules with the new CBA and made it apply retroactively to contracts that were signed prior to the new CBA. Now teams were stuck with player contracts for the length of the contract, however long it is. So as much as I'm sure we would all like to see the Parise and Suter contracts come off the books, the team is stuck with those two contracts until 2025. The only way those contracts are coming off the Wild books is if the Wild find themselves in a situation like Chicago did with Marian Hossa. The player retired and waived his NTC/NMC clause and allowed the Blackhawks to trade his contract to Arizona, because Arizona needed to make the salary floor but didn't want to pay anyone to make it. I'm lacking knowledge about all these contract aspects and specificities, but do you think a buyout is feasible/reasonable/doable ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ0226 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 33 minutes ago, IllaZilla said: According to the CBA, teams and players cannot renegotiate contracts, even if they both are amenable. And since it's a contract, neither side can just "waive" things they don't like. It's not like the NFL, where "contracts" really aren't contracts and the owners can just tear them up whenever they feel like it. The Wild are stuck with the Parise and Suter contracts for the next six seasons. Even if Parise and Suter retire tomorrow, the team will still have the cap hit for the next six seasons. Personally, I think Leipold figured he'd pull a fast one and sign Parise and Suter to an obnoxious contract to get them on his team so he could get a Winter Classic and make a run at the Cup, and then halfway through their deal they'd just retire and the cap hit would come off the books. Because that's what he could do under the old CBA. But then Bettman changed the rules with the new CBA and made it apply retroactively to contracts that were signed prior to the new CBA. Now teams were stuck with player contracts for the length of the contract, however long it is. So as much as I'm sure we would all like to see the Parise and Suter contracts come off the books, the team is stuck with those two contracts until 2025. The only way those contracts are coming off the Wild books is if the Wild find themselves in a situation like Chicago did with Marian Hossa. The player retired and waived his NTC/NMC clause and allowed the Blackhawks to trade his contract to Arizona, because Arizona needed to make the salary floor but didn't want to pay anyone to make it. Thanks @IllaZilla. I thought a player could still waive their contract even under the new CBA rules. And all the media keeps saying Suter and Parise want nothing but a championship. So I figured why not put them out there and see if a Cup really is important to them as they could waive their NTC. It could benefit them and benefit the Wild. But yea, Fletcher and Leipold are complete idiots. To sign those guys to the deals they did without knowing what would exactly happen with the CBA shows little intelligence in making decisions for a pro sports team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ0226 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 2 hours ago, sweetshot said: It's not Fenton. It's Liepold. The reason I say Fenton is part he is the GM now but the other part is he had Suter on Nashville and has shown some bias towards Nashville players. And lets be honest here, Suter is terrible out there. If he was anybody else I bet he would be seeing third pairing minutes if not down to the AHL. I have some worry with Fenton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, EJ0226 said: The reason I say Fenton is part he is the GM now but the other part is he had Suter on Nashville and has shown some bias towards Nashville players. And lets be honest here, Suter is terrible out there. If he was anybody else I bet he would be seeing third pairing minutes if not down to the AHL. I have some worry with Fenton. Liepold owned Nashville when they drafted Suter(not sure if Fenton was there yet). So they go way back. I've heard the Suters have been seen out dining with the Liepolds--not that there's anything wrong with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I have to say in Suter's defense that his point totals and other stats are on par with every other year he's been in the league. From that standpoint he has been remarkably consistent. His numbers have actually increased some since coming to the Wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ0226 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, sweetshot said: Liepold owned Nashville when they drafted Suter(not sure if Fenton was there yet). So they go way back. I've heard the Suters have been seen out dining with the Liepolds--not that there's anything wrong with that... I believe Fentons first year as assistant GM was Suters draft year. I know Fenton was there from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClusterChuck Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 38 minutes ago, sweetshot said: I have to say in Suter's defense that his point totals and other stats are on par with every other year he's been in the league. From that standpoint he has been remarkably consistent. His numbers have actually increased some since coming to the Wild. I agree. One thing I've noticed since the trade deadline deals is we have younger faster guys, Especially Donato. Which in turn has now made Suter and Staal Look slower than ever. Maybe it's just the illusion and Suter is going the same pace as always...(ok, Staal seems to have slowed much more since last season but still ) With Kunin, Greenway, Ek, and a couple of the new guys playing more and faster has messed with what we've been used to seeing pace wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynxrattle Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 There is an alternative way of getting rid of Koivu, Suter, Parise and any other expensive liability with a NTC/NMC. Sometimes these vets near retirement want to have a chance to win the Cup and are ready for a trade if they get traded to a contender. The organisation should make it clear that we are not aiming at the Cup for some years now. The vets' TOI should be cut a lot for two reasons: first to give TOI for any youngsters that make clear they deserve it, secondly to send the message that the vets should start looking for a new home if they want to have a run at the Cup before retirement. In our situation all vets regardless of how they play are at least partly liabilities, as they take away money and TOI that should be allocated to prospects that might help us win the Cup in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomdog Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 6 hours ago, ClusterChuck said: I agree. One thing I've noticed since the trade deadline deals is we have younger faster guys, Especially Donato. Which in turn has now made Suter and Staal Look slower than ever. Maybe it's just the illusion and Suter is going the same pace as always...(ok, Staal seems to have slowed much more since last season but still ) With Kunin, Greenway, Ek, and a couple of the new guys playing more and faster has messed with what we've been used to seeing pace wise. Suter has never been considered fast, and it's hard to tell with the way he coasts. This year though when he coasts players are wise to it and have pressured him and won. Also this year his lateral movement has become non-existent. He seems to be extra pylony, and the speedier players all know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Villette/Lavaux said: I'm lacking knowledge about all these contract aspects and specificities, but do you think a buyout is feasible/reasonable/doable ? No, not now. Suter has $27M and 6 years remaining on his deal. To buy him out, 2/3 of the remaining salary is spread out over twice the remaining length of the deal. So $18M is spread over the next 12 years for a cap hit of $1.5M per year until 2031. Maybe a buyout is possible in a couple of years (21-22) when his salary drops to $6M. Then he has $10M left over four years. So 2/3 of $10M is $6.7M spread out over the next eight years (twice the remaining length of the contract) for a cap hit of about $840K per season. That's still a lot of dead space on the cap. Would be the same with Parise since they have identical contracts. If the Wild buy out both of them in 21-22, they would have $1.7M in dead space on the cap. And that's saying no one else has been bought out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 6 hours ago, lynxrattle said: There is an alternative way of getting rid of Koivu, Suter, Parise and any other expensive liability with a NTC/NMC. Sometimes these vets near retirement want to have a chance to win the Cup and are ready for a trade if they get traded to a contender. The organisation should make it clear that we are not aiming at the Cup for some years now. The vets' TOI should be cut a lot for two reasons: first to give TOI for any youngsters that make clear they deserve it, secondly to send the message that the vets should start looking for a new home if they want to have a run at the Cup before retirement. In our situation all vets regardless of how they play are at least partly liabilities, as they take away money and TOI that should be allocated to prospects that might help us win the Cup in the future. Well, not sure this would work. Toronto tried that years ago with Mats Sundin. They were in a rebuilding mode and wanted to unload Sundin to get prospects and draft picks to start the rebuild. The even told Sundin they would trade him to a contender so he would have a better chance at a Cup. But Sundin wouldn't budge. He refused to waive his NTC and played out the rest of his contract with the Leafs and then retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, IllaZilla said: Well, not sure this would work. Toronto tried that years ago with Mats Sundin. They were in a rebuilding mode and wanted to unload Sundin to get prospects and draft picks to start the rebuild. The even told Sundin they would trade him to a contender so he would have a better chance at a Cup. But Sundin wouldn't budge. He refused to waive his NTC and played out the rest of his contract with the Leafs and then retired. Did he have a bone to pick with the Leafs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, sweetshot said: Did he have a bone to pick with the Leafs? Not that I’m aware of. I seem to recall that when the Leafs approached him he made some comment on the order of “the Leafs have honored the contract to this point and I’m going to honor the contract as well” or something like that. I’m wondering if Sundin had played so long in Toronto that he didn’t want to upset his family with a move out of Toronto and told Toronto “No”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetshot Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, IllaZilla said: Not that I’m aware of. I seem to recall that when the Leafs approached him he made some comment on the order of “the Leafs have honored the contract to this point and I’m going to honor the contract as well” or something like that. I’m wondering if Sundin had played so long in Toronto that he didn’t want to upset his family with a move out of Toronto and told Toronto “No”. I'm sure your right about that--I'd forgotten how long he played for Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandron Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, sweetshot said: I'm sure your right about that--I'd forgotten how long he played for Toronto. He played 13 seasons for Toronto. Actually he played after Toronto one season for Vancouver and in playoffs with it before retirement according to hockey elite prospects: https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/467/mats-sundin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynxrattle Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 The vets have the keys here. The Fletcher heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ0226 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 14 hours ago, IllaZilla said: Well, not sure this would work. Toronto tried that years ago with Mats Sundin. They were in a rebuilding mode and wanted to unload Sundin to get prospects and draft picks to start the rebuild. The even told Sundin they would trade him to a contender so he would have a better chance at a Cup. But Sundin wouldn't budge. He refused to waive his NTC and played out the rest of his contract with the Leafs and then retired. I think Parise would consider. Suter, I don't think he gives two chits about a championship and loves that he is considered a leader by the team and has no expectations or consequences for not performing. I think he would laugh at the thought of him being asked to waive his NTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Maybe it's a simplistic point of view, but it's a vicious circle. If you pay guys like Parisé or Zucker 7.5M/yr or to top-6 forwards, you are paying them to produce. And to produce, hence to justify their salaries, you have to give them TOI because you know that these guys are able to produce (they have "earned" their paycheck according to that)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ0226 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, Villette/Lavaux said: Maybe it's a simplistic point of view, but it's a vicious circle. If you pay guys like Parisé or Zucker 7.5M/yr or to top-6 forwards, you are paying them to produce. And to produce, hence to justify their salaries, you have to give them TOI because you know that these guys are able to produce (they have "earned" their paycheck according to that)... Not that I don't disagree with guys needing the TOI but earned is where I draw a line. Zucker in no way "earned" the contract he got. All of a sudden his contract year is happening he produces his best season ever. Signs a bloated contract and goes back to the Zucker we actually know. Parise can be argued he might have earned it. Disappointingly his best season with the Wild is still 32 points off from his best in New Jersey. Hell his second best season with NJ is 20 points better then with the Wild. His third best season with NJ is 7 points ahead of the best with the Wild. His fourth best season with NJ is 3 points better then his best here. You have to get his fifth best season with NJ which ties his best here. His other two seasons with NJ is his rookie year with 32 points and a season of 13 games. The Wild gambled big time and the payoff was a big decrease in production. Whatever he had in NJ was left there sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, EJ0226 said: Not that I don't disagree with guys needing the TOI but earned is where I draw a line. Zucker in no way "earned" the contract he got. All of a sudden his contract year is happening he produces his best season ever. Signs a bloated contract and goes back to the Zucker we actually know. Parise can be argued he might have earned it. Disappointingly his best season with the Wild is still 32 points off from his best in New Jersey. Hell his second best season with NJ is 20 points better then with the Wild. His third best season with NJ is 7 points ahead of the best with the Wild. His fourth best season with NJ is 3 points better then his best here. You have to get his fifth best season with NJ which ties his best here. His other two seasons with NJ is his rookie year with 32 points and a season of 13 games. The Wild gambled big time and the payoff was a big decrease in production. Whatever he had in NJ was left there sadly. Yes, makes perfect sense. The "earned" was a bit too much. I wanted to point put that in all teams you have a correlation between salary vs TOI. You can have a young stud playing nearly 20mn with an entry-level contract, but the other way around is less true. In Montréal they waited like 70 games to finally cut Drouin ice time as he sucked pretty much the whole season. All the payers should be given opportunities as a function of their current performances, not their paycheck, and that where it comes to ownership/DG involvement into the coaches' stuff which should be separated with a red line. Making Parisé play 5 mn. per game, as necessary as it could be, is somehow admitting your management failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, EJ0226 said: Not that I don't disagree with guys needing the TOI but earned is where I draw a line. Zucker in no way "earned" the contract he got. All of a sudden his contract year is happening he produces his best season ever. Signs a bloated contract and goes back to the Zucker we actually know. Parise can be argued he might have earned it. Disappointingly his best season with the Wild is still 32 points off from his best in New Jersey. Hell his second best season with NJ is 20 points better then with the Wild. His third best season with NJ is 7 points ahead of the best with the Wild. His fourth best season with NJ is 3 points better then his best here. You have to get his fifth best season with NJ which ties his best here. His other two seasons with NJ is his rookie year with 32 points and a season of 13 games. The Wild gambled big time and the payoff was a big decrease in production. Whatever he had in NJ was left there sadly. It's called "youth"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClusterChuck Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, IllaZilla said: It's called "youth"... Simply put. When we signed #11 and #20 they were both some would say 'At peak'. I pretty much saw it as some vets who just stepped over the tip of the mountain. I'll give Parise credit this season tho, He's playing now as I'd hoped he would during those years except a bunch more goals would be nice. After the first 2 seasons here the age and back issue was creeping in and it showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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