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EJ0226

A quick look at Kuemper vs Dubnyk

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After seeing how the Coyotes have been doing I decided to see the goalie differences. Of course their starter goalie is our old back up goalie, Kuemper. Here is the stats:

 

Kuemper

GP          GS           W            L              OT          SA           GA          GAA       S              SV%       SO          MIN

44           44           23           16           5              1361       109         2.51        1252       .920        3              2603 

Dubnyk

GP          GS           W            L              OT          SA           GA          GAA       S              SV%       SO          MIN

58           57           27           23           6              1617       144         2.60        1473       .911        2              3323

Looking at this it does draw up some questions. My biggest two is did the Wild give up on Kuemper to fast and he never got a chance to get enough games to really show what he could do? After all he only had two seasons where he had over 25 games played with the Wild.

The second question is why do the Wild continue to run Dubnyk into the ground? When has this ever worked for the Wild? Kuemper is looking better on a very arguably worse team compared to the Wild and he isn't being ran into the ground.

I only bring this up as I believe the Wild and Coyotes are going to be fighting it out for that last WC spot. What does everybody think of the stats of a goalie we let go and the continue of how we play our Goalie?

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I think we may have given up on kemper more because of his contract and yes dubnyk plays way too much. 

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Kuemper was never able to take that #1 job. He couldn't beat out Niklas Backstrom in 12-13. Then he couldn't beat out Josh Harding in 13-14. Then in 14-15 they traded for Dubnyk because again, Kuemper couldn't get it done. At some point teams cut bait with players because there are others moving though the system that are overtaking them, or they see an opportunity to get someone better. Just because Kuemper figured it out this season doesn't mean he ever would have figured it out here.

 

Devan Dubnyk basically did the same thing Kuemper is doing now. The Oilers drafted him in the first round and then cut him loose five years later because he was never better than a .500 goalie. The Wild give up a third round pick for him in 14-15 and he outplayed Kuemper and saved the Wild's season. The Oilers loss was the Wild's gain.

 

And yes, I do think the Wild plays Dubnyk too much. But that is because they haven't had a decent back-up goaltender in years. Every year they find themselves on the fringes of the Playoffs, so they play their #1 into the ground in order to get into the Playoffs. Then once they are in the Playoffs, the #1 is worn down (and the forwards forget which end of their sticks to hold) and they exit in the first round. And then we all hear the promises of lightening Dubnyk's workload "next season" to keep him fresher for the Playoffs, and when "next season" rolls around, once again, the team is on the fringes of the Playoffs and plays Dubnyk into the ground in order to get into the Playoffs...wash, rinse, repeat...

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Posted (edited)

If I remember right they even had to bring in Bryzgalov because Kuemps just  wasn't reliable on a consistent basis with the Wild.. he had games here and there where he would look like a NHL starter and then stretches where he would let in plenty of softies and looked like an AHL backup.

Edited by Gnarkill
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I don’t know how they think the backup will ever be reliable when he only gets to play once a month plus relief games when dubnyk melts down and the game is all but lost. 

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@IllaZilla's post is pretty much spot on.

Kuemper DID get his chances...could just never lock down the starter's job. Plain n simple.

Also, the Coyotes, for those that don't know, actually play a pretty good defensive game.
To say they are "worse than the Wild" is too broad.

Arizona plays a very good solid, defensive structured type game (sound familiar Wild fans? Something the Wild were known throughout the league before on?)….and the goalies reap the benefits of that.
Granted, the goalie STILL has to be good...and yes, Kuemper has been that as well......finally.

 

Coyote's biggest issue is goal scoring. They  just don't have enough guys that can give Kuemper leads, and thus he HAS to play like he is trying to shut out the other team every single time out.
Also, Arizona had Adin Hill playing some games when Darcy failed....took LOTS of pressure off Kuemper while he rounded his game, then when he finally did, Adin Hill (a very good goalie himself, IMO) was sent back down to the minors to await his next opportunity...whether with Arizona or someone else.

 

Bottom line is... Kuemper simply was NOT this good in Minnesota, he has had a decent defense in front of him all year, has had help in the crease in the form of other goalies, and well, goalies are just weird.  They can be lights out....then look like complete imbeciles.....then back to lights out......or just OUT of the league entirely.
So after awhilie, like Illa said..... teams cut bait with the ones who just look like they aren't hacking it...……… ala Dubnyk of the Oilers, Dubnyk of the Coyotes before he became a Wild mainstay.

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Posted (edited)

20/20 hindsight.  Darcybaby was horrible for the Wild.   Obvious no brainer he had to go at the time.  LOTS of players suck with one club and need to move.  Darby a good example.  So is Doobie.  Tarded to moan about it WAY after the decision had to be made.

 

Fact is, goalies go from sugar to chit AND chit to sugar frequently.  Any long time Wild or NHL fan has seen it multiple times.

 

Ever heard of Jim Carey?   NOT the actor, the goalie...   Hell, look at our minor league goalie Hammond...

 

People who tout short term goalie success don't know the game.

Edited by Fargocase

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10 hours ago, Fargocase said:

20/20 hindsight.  Darcybaby was horrible for the Wild.   Obvious no brainer he had to go at the time.  LOTS of players suck with one club and need to move.  Darby a good example.  So is Doobie.  Tarded to moan about it WAY after the decision had to be made.

 

Fact is, goalies go from sugar to chit AND chit to sugar frequently.  Any long time Wild or NHL fan has seen it multiple times.

 

Ever heard of Jim Carey?   NOT the actor, the goalie...   Hell, look at our minor league goalie Hammond...

 

People who tout short term goalie success don't know the game.

 

Yeah I remember Jim Carey. Played like a brick wall and saved the Capitols season in 94, won the Vezina in 96 and was out of the NHL by 99.

 

Andrew Hammond was another one. Went 20-1-2 for the Sens, in 2014 and has pretty much been in the AHL ever since.

 

Jake Allen looked like a brick wall a couple of years ago in the Playoffs against the Wild and now appears to have lost his job to Jordan Binnington.

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Someone obviously might want to explain why Kuemper plays better behind a much less talented roster than Allstarnyk?

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That's a good question but at least one thing comes to my mind. Tocchet said their players take a lot of pride on defending. We don't look like the epitome of pride in pretty much anything right now.

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On 3/14/2019 at 12:27 PM, IllaZilla said:

 

 

And yes, I do think the Wild plays Dubnyk too much. But that is because they haven't had a decent back-up goaltender in years. Every year they find themselves on the fringes of the Playoffs, so they play their #1 into the ground in order to get into the Playoffs. Then once they are in the Playoffs, the #1 is worn down (and the forwards forget which end of their sticks to hold) and they exit in the first round. And then we all hear the promises of lightening Dubnyk's workload "next season" to keep him fresher for the Playoffs, and when "next season" rolls around, once again, the team is on the fringes of the Playoffs and plays Dubnyk into the ground in order to get into the Playoffs...wash, rinse, repeat...

Doesn't Boudreau see that he's creating this scenario time after time?!?

Stalock could be decent, Not challenging for #1 but look at Dallas and how freakin' Ben Bishop has been doing having Kudoobies play a solid amount of games.

Stalock could be that backup if he played more consistently. There's no reason why in Oct-Dec he doesn't play in every 1/3rd game.

 

We hear..."The Wild are playing Playoff Hockey right now", While the other's are gearing up For Them.

3 weeks of this and of course we're burned out and can't even take it up a needed notch for the PO's.

 

Bruce, This ins't a good plan !!:bonkingheadonwall:

 

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On 3/16/2019 at 10:42 AM, Hockey-78 said:

Someone obviously might want to explain why Kuemper plays better behind a much less talented roster than Allstarnyk?

 

Well, for one, it is likely that the Coyotes aren't necessarily "much less talented" than the Wild. Some good players on that team and they play as a unit, a solid overall defensive game.

Secondly, as was already stated several times, Kuemper may simply have finally come into his own in a situation where the Coyotes didn't have much else to lose by putting him in when Raanta went down and they opted Adin Hill to the minors.

 

Again, the Wild, when Kuemper was here, were not in a position to continue to be patient with Darcy when the team was still pushing to be a legit playoff and Stanley Cup contender. He WAS given opportunity....he could neither seize it, nor look like he was going to anytime soon.

Arizona gave him the shot ONLY after Antii Raanta went down for the season....and it worked out great for them.

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6 minutes ago, ClusterChuck said:

Doesn't Boudreau see that he's creating this scenario time after time?!?

Stalock could be decent, Not challenging for #1 but look at Dallas and how freakin' Ben Bishop has been doing having Kudoobies play a solid amount of games.

Stalock could be that backup if he played more consistently. There's no reason why in Oct-Dec he doesn't play in every 1/3rd game.

 

We hear..."The Wild are playing Playoff Hockey right now", While the other's are gearing up For Them.

3 weeks of this and of course we're burned out and can't even take it up a needed notch for the PO's.

 

Bruce, This ins't a good plan !!:bonkingheadonwall:

 

 

I don't disagree with you.  I think Dubnyk is getting to an age where he probably does need more rest. And the last two seasons we keep hearing Stalock is going to get more games, but in the end, it's generally around 20 games, which is not going to help either goaltender...

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38 minutes ago, ClusterChuck said:

Doesn't Boudreau see that he's creating this scenario time after time?!?

Stalock could be decent, Not challenging for #1 but look at Dallas and how freakin' Ben Bishop has been doing having Kudoobies play a solid amount of games.

Stalock could be that backup if he played more consistently. There's no reason why in Oct-Dec he doesn't play in every 1/3rd game.

 

We hear..."The Wild are playing Playoff Hockey right now", While the other's are gearing up For Them.

3 weeks of this and of course we're burned out and can't even take it up a needed notch for the PO's.

 

Bruce, This ins't a good plan !!:bonkingheadonwall:

 

Time and time again the word has been that Dubnyk dictates his starts.

 

So much for the team first, me second attitude... LOL, Dubnyk even went to the all-star game to make a fool of himself.

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20 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

I don't disagree with you.  I think Dubnyk is getting to an age where he probably does need more rest. And the last two seasons we keep hearing Stalock is going to get more games, but in the end, it's generally around 20 games, which is not going to help either goaltender...

 

While I certainly agree that Dubnyk simply can't be run out there game after game like he has been, the bolded scares me.

I know there are some Stalock fans out there who feel "Just give him more of a shot!" (especially after seeing how Darcy is doing in the desert), but I don't happen to be one of them.

There is a reason Stalock was never fully given the nod while in San Jose, there is a reason why the Wild had him as a backup making close to NHL minimum...and there is a reason why they RE-SIGNED him to that almost that same near minimum NHL wage.

Granted, at the time the Wild signed him, and given their current situation (contender or not? rebuilding or not? trending up, trending down?) they didn't have many good options, but still, Stalock simply isn't the answer...never has been.

 

I know, I know....Wild may as well give him more games because if someway, somehow, they manage to sneak into the top 8, they will need a rested, healthy Dubynk to see them through that.
Well, errrr, I am not so sure the Wild CAN sneak into the top 8 relying heavily on Stalock….so they are back to running Dubnyk into the ground hoping he has enough to get them there....and enough once there.
Pretty bleak situation either way.

 

I just feel that if the Wild really feel that the team can still compete next season, they will have to finally decided on a real team identity, who will actually be calling the shots behind the bench (I think BB's days may be numbered) AND what goalie they can get to do a timeshare (yes, a freakin TIMESHARE) with Dubnyk in net, if their current "minor league superstar" goalie isn't quite ready.

If NONE of those things are accomplished, then we can expect more of the same from this team next year....or worse...

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35 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Well, for one, it is likely that the Coyotes aren't necessarily "much less talented" than the Wild. Some good players on that team and they play as a unit, a solid overall defensive game.

Yes...actually you contradict yourself in that paragraph. This much less talented squad compensates its shortcomings by playing as a unit, team first attitude. That's their only chance. I've watched them enough this season, there just are NOT players who can make the headlines. Ekman-Larsson maybe the only exception.

 

Yotes even pay $11 mil. a year to players who are never going to play again! Funny how paying so much less to your ACTIVE players gets you a so much better TEAM than the Wild. Wild's play as a team has been inferior; it's been up and down all season depending on if the Wild stars feel like giving their all on the ice.

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45 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

I don't disagree with you.  I think Dubnyk is getting to an age where he probably does need more rest. And the last two seasons we keep hearing Stalock is going to get more games, but in the end, it's generally around 20 games, which is not going to help either goaltender...

After looking at the wild website it looks like stalock will start about 15 games this year.

That's based on his 6 - 6 + 2 record

Can't really count relief appearances because he wouldn't have played if dubnyk had performed.

No stalock isn't the answer, but dubnyk can't play as many games as he does, even if they are in a race.

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24 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

Yes...actually you contradict yourself in that paragraph. This much less talented squad compensates its shortcomings by playing as a unit, team first attitude. That's their only chance. I've watched them enough this season, there just are NOT players who can make the headlines. Ekman-Larsson maybe the only exception.

 

Yotes even pay $11 mil. a year to players who are never going to play again! Funny how paying so much less to your ACTIVE players gets you a so much better TEAM than the Wild. Wild's play as a team has been inferior; it's been up and down all season depending on if the Wild stars feel like giving their all on the ice.

 

No contradiction at all.

Who says talented players can't ALSO play as a unit and be successful? The league has teams that resemble that...easily.

OEL is certainly a good player, but so are guys like Hjalmarsson, Goligoski, Demers and young up n comers like Chycrun...and this is all just on the back end. Granted, some of those guys are no top of the line players, but good players none the less, and outside of maybe Mat Dumba, Spurgeon, or Suter (yes, most Wild fans on this board's favorite whipping boy), I think the Arizona defense compares pretty favorably in terms of overall talent.

And the Yotes front lines the same.....some good players dotting their lineup and some up n comers that compare, again, pretty favorably to what the Wild are icing these days.

 

As for "headliners"...since when does a guy who is considered a "headliner" (and THAT is laughable by many league standards) necessarily equate to being "better" than others on another team?

If that were true, with the way the league hypes the holy hell out of certain teams (whether they deserve it or not) and do NOT hype the Wild, then the Wild would have ZERO headliners!

 

We got away from the spirit of this thread here, but I just got to wondering what is it exactly that you see on the ice, because it doesn't seem to fit in very well with what is actually going on....my opinion of course, but I am pretty confident in it.

 

To your original query...Kuemper was just not working out in Minnesota, and the Wild at the time, didn't have the time, nor inclination to wait on him to "figure it out".
Arizona wasn't going to do that either, but only the downfall of their preferred guy, Raanta, forced them to give Kuemper extended looks, and, credit to Kuemper and whomever worked with him, he finally did seem to figure things out.

 

Can he continue to do that moving forward beyond this year? Or did he just expend all his "skills" behind that "untalented" group in front of him, and he will be forgotten next year, ala Hammond, ala Talbot, ala Mason?
That, my friend, is the big question, isn't it?

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1 hour ago, Hockey-78 said:

Time and time again the word has been that Dubnyk dictates his starts.

 

So much for the team first, me second attitude... LOL, Dubnyk even went to the all-star game to make a fool of himself.

Yeah, It's well known Dubs Wants to start every game. That's a great attitude and should be for a #1.

But that's so unrealistic in today's game.

This is where Boudreau needs to do his job and not rely on Dubs wishes. Too easy for BB.

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Good points.

Also remember this, the wild were desperate for goaltending when kuemper showed promise, and yes he did show promise.

They overpaid him because they had few options, then he got concussed, and never really looked the same.

Also remember, all big name talent starts out as up and comers.

I believe Arizona is at that stage with some of its players.

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Could it be a vicious circle?

 

The Wild plays inconsistently -->

the backup goalie needs to be able to rescue the game -->

doomed to fail now and then -->

the number one goalie needs to play in order to get the points -->

gets tired and/or injured...

 

If this is the case, the end of lackadaisical play against weaker opponents would help a lot in solving the backup goalie problem.

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Darcy played 5 seasons(total 102 GP) in a Wild team and a half of the season (19 GP) in Los Angeles before he was traded to Arizona last season where played 10 games. Initially for all three teams he showed inconsistent play. This season he already played plenty of games (46) for Arizona and probably was less stressed as he had in a Wild or Kings uniforms, plus as usual goalies gained more confidence as well experience with an age and more games played during the season. Or maybe goaltending training there(in Arizona) is different too?

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7 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

Time and time again the word has been that Dubnyk dictates his starts.

 

So much for the team first, me second attitude... LOL, Dubnyk even went to the all-star game to make a fool of himself.

At least you are consistent with your silly player dictating to Coaches conspiracy theories.  🙄

 

Go back 10, 20 years.   Goalies starting 60 games a year was common.  I know you HATE Doobie, but if you'd get over your irrational hate of him, it should be obvious the Wild has a much better chance to win with Doobie in net.  Stalock is a fringe guy all the way, lucky to even have an NHL gig.

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My point is that maybe if they gave stalock a start, where he came in with the game even, maybe once every 9 or 10 days both goalies would be better.

But we'll never know because they won't try it.

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14 hours ago, Tomdog said:

My point is that maybe if they gave stalock a start, where he came in with the game even, maybe once every 9 or 10 days both goalies would be better.

But we'll never know because they won't try it.

Truth, As long as BB is here.

More so than most teams the Wild live and die with their goalie(s).

If the O could dominate more of the games and score enough to overcome a not so good outing by Dubs or Stalock, We'd be in much better shape. And I have to think that would ease the pressure on our goalies as a result.

 

But since that's not the case, Maybe that's why BB goes with 'his best chance' with Dubnyk night after night.

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      Post
      Well, for one, it is likely that the Coyotes aren't necessarily "much less talented" than the Wild. Some good players on that team and they play as a unit, a solid overall defensive game. Secondly, as was already stated several times, Kuemper may simply have finally come into his own in a situation where the Coyotes didn't have much else to lose by putting him in when Raanta went down and they opted Adin Hill to the minors.   Again, the Wild, when Kuemper was here, were not in a pos
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      If I remember right they even had to bring in Bryzgalov because Kuemps just  wasn't reliable on a consistent basis with the Wild.. he had games here and there where he would look like a NHL starter and then stretches where he would let in plenty of softies and looked like an AHL backup.
    • 2
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      I don't disagree with you.  I think Dubnyk is getting to an age where he probably does need more rest. And the last two seasons we keep hearing Stalock is going to get more games, but in the end, it's generally around 20 games, which is not going to help either goaltender...
    • 2
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      Good points. Also remember this, the wild were desperate for goaltending when kuemper showed promise, and yes he did show promise. They overpaid him because they had few options, then he got concussed, and never really looked the same. Also remember, all big name talent starts out as up and comers. I believe Arizona is at that stage with some of its players.
    • 1
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      Kuemper was never able to take that #1 job. He couldn't beat out Niklas Backstrom in 12-13. Then he couldn't beat out Josh Harding in 13-14. Then in 14-15 they traded for Dubnyk because again, Kuemper couldn't get it done. At some point teams cut bait with players because there are others moving though the system that are overtaking them, or they see an opportunity to get someone better. Just because Kuemper figured it out this season doesn't mean he ever would have figured it out here.  
    • 1
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      Truth, As long as BB is here. More so than most teams the Wild live and die with their goalie(s). If the O could dominate more of the games and score enough to overcome a not so good outing by Dubs or Stalock, We'd be in much better shape. And I have to think that would ease the pressure on our goalies as a result.   But since that's not the case, Maybe that's why BB goes with 'his best chance' with Dubnyk night after night.
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