Morin not getting in a game this year

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Oh I beg to differ there is a lot to be desired in Hagg's game.

 

He gets turned around so easy and chases the play when he should maintain his position.

 

He will take his self out the play to make the hit to. 

 

And he just looks sometimes to be thinking too much like he doesn't know what or who is his guy.

 

And loses rebounds a lot.

 

He is I'm afraid the weakest link with Mcdud out the lineup.

 

It is why I think he could be the piece Fletcher uses to make a move with.

 

Especially if Morin is going to be a part of the lineup next then someone needs to go.

 

Friedman will be trying to get a spot too next year.

 

Ivan/Myers

Sanheim/Gudas

Ghost/Morin

Friedman

 

That could be the D pairs till they land a vet D man.

 

Hagg who does have trade value will be the oddman out.

 

 

I was being generous to him.

 

I too think he will be the one Fletcher will TRY to move and I'd be good with that, but I don't know what kind of 3RW (or 3C) you're going to get for Hagg.  Unless you want Nylander, which I don't... certainly not on his fat contract.  

 

Even if Morin wasn't better, it'll be more difficult to move the guy who essentially hasn't played in a year and a half.

 

Assuming they waive McDonald and trade Hagg, there's room to sign a vet and have Morin as your #7.  

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

I was being generous to him.

 

 

 

I get and I am not trying to rag on him either.

 

Just pointing out that he is now the weakest link with Mcdud out the lineup.

 

Now when I say that too I'm not saying the other defenseman don't have flaws because they all do they all have a lot to get better at some more than others.

 

But i am judging by upside too and Hagg's is limited.

 

So he is the odd man out when the time comes.

 

It is why i would love to get a look at Friedman if Morin isn't going to play this year.

 

Friedman is a more rounded two way guy who would add another right hand shot so you could actually have one on each pair.

 

Not sure how good he can be but next year he will require waivers. I'd like to know more of what they have before risking something like that.

 

Maybe they try and move 2 defenseman.

[Howie58]

I wonder if we will ever see him in a Flyers uniform?  I think he is jinxed.  

[Poulin20]

3 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I wonder if we will ever see him in a Flyers uniform?  I think he is jinxed.  

 

Kevin Marshall 2.0?  Darren Rumble 3.0?

[brelic]

On 3/23/2019 at 4:23 AM, Poulin20 said:

 

Kevin Marshall 2.0?  Darren Rumble 3.0?

 

Quite possibly.

 

He's the last of the Homer era picks. Big, lumbering defenseman with little offensive upside.

 

Marshall was picked two spots ahead of PK Subban... Morin was picked a few spots ahead of Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov.

 

The following year, Hextall drafted Sanheim. 

 

Now what's Fletch gonna do? Draft all the Finns?

 

SMH at this organization.

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

36 minutes ago, brelic said:

Now what's Fletch gonna do? Draft all the Finns?

 

 

Well the Flyers are Finnless maybe it's why they are winless...HA look at me busting rhymes...

 

..who knew...

[brelic]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well the Flyers are Finnless maybe it's why they are winless...HA look at me busting rhymes...

 

..who knew...

 

I mean, I've had my Snortin' Finn quota with Lehtera. I'm all good lol! 

 

The lone exception is Kaapo Kakko.

[OccamsRazor]

12 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I mean, I've had my Snortin' Finn quota with Lehtera. I'm all good lol! 

 

The lone exception is Kaapo Kakko.

 

He really was the Anti Finn those guys are known skaters with speed like Obama I need to see Jori's birth certificate...

 

 

[brelic]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He really was the Anti Finn those guys are known skaters with speed like Obama I need to see Jori's birth certificate...

 

 

 

Haha Frost better be worth it!

 

The Flyers couldn't even make it through 2 seasons of Jori. 

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Haha Frost better be worth it!

 

The Flyers couldn't even make it through 2 seasons of Jori. 

 

Farabee may sign his entry level deal this week from reports, so yeah Frost and Farabee will be worth it...hopefully...

[OccamsRazor]

On 3/22/2019 at 11:45 AM, King Knut said:

Well, they must have plans for him then.  

 

 

• Dave Isaac

   

  @davegisaac

   

Just gonna pin this tweet because I must’ve posted this 50 times. Scott Gordon said he’ll play Morin when/if the Flyers are officially eliminated. Not when it *appears* they’re done, not when it’s the fans’ opinion they’re done. Not endorsing it, just saying that’s the plan.

 

 

[King Knut]

9 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Farabee may sign his entry level deal this week from reports, so yeah Frost and Farabee will be worth it...hopefully...

 

Didn’t realize that Farabee would be able to circumvent the under 20 rule. Forgot that was an agreement with the junior leagues.  

 

Hope it works. 

[brelic]

13 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Didn’t realize that Farabee would be able to circumvent the under 20 rule. Forgot that was an agreement with the junior leagues.  

 

Hope it works. 

 

Yup. I wish that rule didn't exist for the Canadian junior circuit. It's frustrating for teams who have prospects too good for junior but not quite ready for the NHL. 

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Yup. I wish that rule didn't exist for the Canadian junior circuit. It's frustrating for teams who have prospects too good for junior but not quite ready for the NHL. 

I might sound like a broken record here, but the NBA's labor structure has an "out" for nearly everything. They call it "hardship".

This could be something the NHL could negotiate with the CMJHLs. Where a team is allowed 2 "exceptions" for 19 year olds, that way those leagues still have top end talent and the drafting organization could have more of a say in developing their top talent. 

I understand the economics and the role of MJH in Canadian culture, so with an exception rule those leagues aren't decimated by the exodus of top talent and guys who are ready to make a move to better competition but not the best competition have a path also. 

 

I would also like to see some mid level exceptions in the NHL that allow for the retention of homegrown talent. I think about how Chicago had Saad and Panarin in their system but couldn't keep them because the guys they drafted and developed before them were still on the team and commanding large salaries. That isn't fair, the 'Hawks scouts found those guys and the coaches developed those guys and the team misses out on reaping those benefits. 

I mean everyone hates Bettman anyway, he came from the NBA. Why not embrace the good structural things that that league has going for it and work them into this league.  There's more to being successful than marketing the stars.

 

[brelic]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I might sound like a broken record here, but the NBA's labor structure has an "out" for nearly everything. They call it "hardship".

This could be something the NHL could negotiate with the CMJHLs. Where a team is allowed 2 "exceptions" for 19 year olds, that way those leagues still have top end talent and the drafting organization could have more of a say in developing their top talent. 

I understand the economics and the role of MJH in Canadian culture, so with an exception rule those leagues aren't decimated by the exodus of top talent and guys who are ready to make a move to better competition but not the best competition have a path also. 

 

I wonder why it couldn't work the same was as with the NCAA? Junior-level players could no longer sign any professional contracts if they want to retain their eligibility. Once they sign, they are no longer junior eligible, and can thus play in the AHL or NHL. 

 

I still think it would be a small minority of players that would go that route and would have minimal disruption on the junior circuit. 

 

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I would also like to see some mid level exceptions in the NHL that allow for the retention of homegrown talent. I think about how Chicago had Saad and Panarin in their system but couldn't keep them because the guys they drafted and developed before them were still on the team and commanding large salaries. That isn't fair, the 'Hawks scouts found those guys and the coaches developed those guys and the team misses out on reaping those benefits. 

I mean everyone hates Bettman anyway, he came from the NBA. Why not embrace the good structural things that that league has going for it and work them into this league.  There's more to being successful than marketing the stars.

 

 

I mentioned something very similar in a general NHL thread not that long ago... I'll try and dig it up.

 

But basically, I suggested that each team can select two homegrown players (drafted by that team and that has remained with the organization) that do not count against the cap. That would help teams build a stronger support system around their one or two core players without worrying about their cap hits. 

 

 

[King Knut]

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I wonder why it couldn't work the same was as with the NCAA? Junior-level players could no longer sign any professional contracts if they want to retain their eligibility. Once they sign, they are no longer junior eligible, and can thus play in the AHL or NHL. 

 

I still think it would be a small minority of players that would go that route and would have minimal disruption on the junior circuit. 

 

 

Because those junior teams in those tiny towns desperately need the star power for as long as they can get it.  Or at least so goes the argument.  

 

Frankly, if I were in MJH in Ca, I'd be a little concerned about the NCAA.  They're not there yet AT ALL, but they're getting better and more and more teams are getting good and this will increase competition for talent overall and eventually they will recruit in Canada far more than they do now.  

 

13 minutes ago, brelic said:

I mentioned something very similar in a general NHL thread not that long ago... I'll try and dig it up.

 

But basically, I suggested that each team can select two homegrown players (drafted by that team and that has remained with the organization) that do not count against the cap. That would help teams build a stronger support system around their one or two core players without worrying about their cap hits. 

 

It could work almost like an NFL Franchise tag, except it wouldn't count against the cap.  I'd hope however that it could be reached mutually.  

 

It would suck for a team to tag a guy that really didn't want to be someplace and trap him there for his entire career.  

 

The major danger I'd see is that teams would have even more reason to intentionally tank to get top notch talent coming out of the draft.  But the league doesn't seem to have any qualms about that any more.  They almost seem to encourage it these days.  

 

 

[brelic]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

It could work almost like an NFL Franchise tag, except it wouldn't count against the cap.  I'd hope however that it could be reached mutually.  

 

It would suck for a team to tag a guy that really didn't want to be someplace and trap him there for his entire career.  

 

The major danger I'd see is that teams would have even more reason to intentionally tank to get top notch talent coming out of the draft.  But the league doesn't seem to have any qualms about that any more.  They almost seem to encourage it these days.  

 

 

 

I don't know anything about football... how does that work?

 

The way I imagine it is independent of the player and doesn't affect his ability to leave at the end of a contract, nor does it affect the team's ability to trade him. It's just a designated exemption. So, for example, Edmonton could not use it on Lucic but they could use it on McDavid. As long as he remains with the team, and as long as the Oilers designate his cap hit for exemption, he doesn't count against the cap. 

 

Say they've already got two 'exempt' hits - McDavid and Draisatl. And let's say they draft Hughes. In five years, Hughes gets a $12M contract. They could choose to now exempt his contract in lieu of Draisatl - and Draisalt would immediately count against the cap again. So teams still need to be smart about cap management.

 

I'm not sure I understand your tanking comment... is that in relation to the NFL? 

 

Also, the NHL has done really well at mitigating the appeal of a tank. If you finish dead last, there's an 18% of you getting 1st overall, and a 51% chance of getting 4th overall. I still think it can be better (mini tournament for non-playoff teams) but it has removed a lot of the certainty. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I might sound like a broken record here, but the NBA's labor structure has an "out" for nearly everything.

 

There already is an out for the players.

 

The junior teams just have the first choice with them...all they have to do is say no we don't need him and you guys can take him they have the right to first refusal to him and all they have to do is exercise it...but that is the problem when have you ever heard a junior team say no we don't need him you guys take him...they don't or at least i have never heard it happen.

 

But it would seem the NHL team should have a right to trump the junior teams who want the kid who may think it's best for the kid to up the competition level to play in the AHL....you have to think this rarely would happen but the NHL club needs to be able to decide over the junior team who own his rights.

[brelic]

55 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

The junior teams just have the first choice with them...all they have to do is say no we don't need him and you guys can take him they have the right to first refusal to him and all they have to do is exercise it...but that is the problem when have you ever heard a junior team say no we don't need him you guys take him...they don't or at least i have never heard it happen.

 

I don't think that's quite how it works. 

 

If a player is drafted from a CHL club, then the rule applies. It's either the CHL or NHL until he's 20. The player can also join the AHL on an ATO after the CHL season is over, but the next season, it's either CHL or NHL again. 

 

What we were suggesting is that junior players no longer be allowed to sign ELC, just like in the NCAA right now. And, like Farabee, if they choose to sign a professional contract, they are no longer eligible for the CHL. Their route is now AHL or NHL. 

 

Sounds reasonable to me, especially because I think it would only happen in a small number of cases.

 

They could certainly pilot it in some way (e.g. limit it to 1st round draft picks, or have a limit per NHL team) to see how it works in practice

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

If a player is drafted from a CHL club, then the rule applies. It's either the CHL or NHL until he's 20.

 

Yeah it may be the rule i can't remember the most of the CBA but the AHL requirement is that have to be 18 years of age.

 

So if the kid is turning 20 before the end of the year he can play in the AHL at the start of the season at 19. I can't remember if he has to have played two years of CHL or not.

 

However if they were drafted out of another league and loaned to an CHL club then they can be assigned to the AHL like the Flyers almost did to Rubtsov who was drafted out of the MHL and loaned to the QMJHL.

[elmatus]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I understand the economics and the role of MJH in Canadian culture, so with an exception rule those leagues aren't decimated by the exodus of top talent and guys who are ready to make a move to better competition but not the best competition have a path also. 

 

My colours may show here, but I actually think this makes sense and probably should be preserved. I think there's a very good reason the CHL churns out NHL players like maple syrup and back bacon, and it's in no small part because of the culture and the talent level that remains in those leagues for longer periods of time. The better the competition; the better the sport.

 

I do get the desire to see top flight players playing in professional leagues, but I'm not convinced it would actually be what's best for development of those players. This is all without noting the massive impact competence can have on someone's sense of self-worth. We're working into dev psych 101 here, but it's entirely possible that having a guy dominate a league is actually very good for their long term growth. Perceived competence is a very strong indicator of future success.

[brelic]

32 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah it may be the rule i can't remember the most of the CBA but the AHL requirement is that have to be 18 years of age.

 

So if the kid is turning 20 before the end of the year he can play in the AHL at the start of the season at 19. I can't remember if he has to have played two years of CHL or not.

 

However if they were drafted out of another league and loaned to an CHL club then they can be assigned to the AHL like the Flyers almost did to Rubtsov who was drafted out of the MHL and loaned to the QMJHL.

 

Just to clarify, it's the end of the *calendar* year, not the hockey year.

 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

 

I don't know anything about football... how does that work?

 

The way I imagine it is independent of the player and doesn't affect his ability to leave at the end of a contract, nor does it affect the team's ability to trade him. It's just a designated exemption. So, for example, Edmonton could not use it on Lucic but they could use it on McDavid. As long as he remains with the team, and as long as the Oilers designate his cap hit for exemption, he doesn't count against the cap. 

 

Say they've already got two 'exempt' hits - McDavid and Draisatl. And let's say they draft Hughes. In five years, Hughes gets a $12M contract. They could choose to now exempt his contract in lieu of Draisatl - and Draisalt would immediately count against the cap again. So teams still need to be smart about cap management.

 

I'm not sure I understand your tanking comment... is that in relation to the NFL? 

 

Also, the NHL has done really well at mitigating the appeal of a tank. If you finish dead last, there's an 18% of you getting 1st overall, and a 51% chance of getting 4th overall. I still think it can be better (mini tournament for non-playoff teams) but it has removed a lot of the certainty. 

 

 

 

In the NFL, if a team is about to lose a player to UFA, they can stamp a tag on him as a "Franchise" player and they have to pay him no less than the average of the top five salaries.   Each team can do it once a year.  

 

Franchising a player only lasts a year though, after that you have to keep them for real.  

 

What you're talking is very different in that it wouldn't cost against the cap and could be for more than a year.  However it's similar in that the team is calling out a player it basically says it can't afford to lose in Free Agency and the league gives that team an avenue to retain them.

 

My tanking comment isn't related to the NFL, it's related to the NHL exclusively.

 

In your scenario, if retaining superstar young talent doesn't count against the cap, teams (especially like Edmonton, or like the Penguins 15 years ago who did this without your incentive) would have even more motivation to lose games on purpose in order to get better draft positions for years like this year.

 

Edmonton's got McDavid and Draisatl like you say... the fact that they may have to pay them both big dollar long term deals mean the idea of having to pay a THIRD player of that quality another big dollar long term deal is a big problem going forward.  

 

I don't think this idea would fly.  You're essentially giving teams $20 million+ off the cap if they want it and you're allowing them to move it around on top of that. 

 

This is in fact the exact position Toronto is in this summer.  THey have a BUNCH of homegrown talent that they will simply not be able to afford (mostly because they signed Tavares last year).  Even without Tavares, they'll have a hard time paying everyone their market value.

 

In giving them a pass on Marner and Matthews, you're essentially letting them have Tavares without it counting against the cap.  It's not fair.  

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

35 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

My colours may show here, but I actually think this makes sense and probably should be preserved. I think there's a very good reason the CHL churns out NHL players like maple syrup and back bacon, and it's in no small part because of the culture and the talent level that remains in those leagues for longer periods of time. The better the competition; the better the sport.

 

I do get the desire to see top flight players playing in professional leagues, but I'm not convinced it would actually be what's best for development of those players. This is all without noting the massive impact competence can have on someone's sense of self-worth. We're working into dev psych 101 here, but it's entirely possible that having a guy dominate a league is actually very good for their long term growth. Perceived competence is a very strong indicator of future success.

 

 

It's really about us, not the players or the teams.  Fact is Patrick would have benefitted from a year or two in the minors.  But he wouldn't have benefitted from another year in juniors.  So he came to the big club.

 

It's been a harder road for him as a result and a lot of us have been agitated that he isn't a superstar yet.  But we're witnessing the development of such a player.  The Flyers didn't plan to compete for a year or two anyway, so they could afford to bring him along slowly.  

 

Would Frost have been a better player next year if he'd been able to play this year in the AHL?  

Maybe.  I can't say.  

 

End result is though that Frost is bigger and he certainly should have confidence.  Maybe there's a middle ground in which MJH can take two weeks off in the middle of the season and draft plus one players can go practice with their NHL teams for a couple of weeks without playing?  

 

I only think the junior leagues should care because at some point (maybe 5 years from now or more) the NCAA might start to poke around in their talent pool and start offering scholarships to kids that would have become MJH superstars instead and those kids might start taking those scholarships just because they'll know they can quit school and go to the NHL sooner. 

 

They're not there yet.  But it's changing. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

24 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Just to clarify, it's the end of the *calendar* year, not the hockey year.

 

 

Yes. If your birthday is on January 1st your not eligible back to juniors.

 

What I am not sure of those is do you have to have at least two years of CHL completed?