Voracek and Your Basic Choking Situation

[radoran]

https://www.philly.com/flyers/flyers-nhl-playoffs-chances-choked-jake-voracek-20190324.html

 

Echoing his inner Terry Murray, Voracek says the team choked down the stretch.

 

"We had a good push, but unfortunately, anytime we got close - three points, five points - and we played those big teams in front of us (in) those four-point games, we choked,"

 

"I don't want to take anything out of this season, to be honest," said Voracek. "I had way higher expectations. I think everybody did before we walked into the locker room in training camp. It's really disappointing. We have to have a good look in the mirror and straighten some things out before we come in next year."

 

So they didn't expect to stumble out of the gate (again), get the GM and coach fired, and then rely on a 20-year-old rookie goalie to make them even remotely competitive?

 

Good to know.

 

The inconsistent way they play, they're simply not good enough to compete with the actual Stanly Cup competitors on a regular basis. After six years.

 

Yep, gotta "straighten some things out" before next year. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, radoran said:

We have to have a good look in the mirror and straighten some things out before we come in next year.

 

I got no problem with him saying this because it is true.

 

However he has to admit HE was a huge part of the choking process.

 

I don't know how many times (it was countless) i seen him trying to do too much, carry the puck into the zone and get swarmed by the opposition and instead of him making the smart play getting rid of it before they converged on him, he would keep it and sloppily turn the damn thing over and then he would half ass make a weak attempt to back check and it ends up in the damn net.

 

So he was a huge contributor in the choking. It was/is one of the main reasons i have been campaigning for them to get rid of his ass.

 

And it hasn't been just this season it has been going on for a few and i have had my fill of it...move his ass and turn him into the vet defenseman the team needs.

 

Find someone willing to take him....Voracek for Jared Spurgeon and a pick since Chuck is familiar with him (more for just an example).

 

But back to the point....yes they have choked and it is a team burden....starting from the goal out. Hart i think is the right guy to lead them out the darkness...Elliott i' sorry isn't...too many times they have needed hi and he has come up small.

 

Good riddance. Not sure if Talbot is the guy who can help but Elliott ISN'T.

 

There is a reason Coots was given the A and not Jake because he takes many plays off and is a culprit of the losing.

 

Maybe a change of address will wake him up.

 

31 minutes ago, radoran said:

The inconsistent way they play, they're simply not good enough to compete with the actual Stanly Cup competitors on a regular basis.

 

This is why sure i have like that Gordon has helped turn things around there is stink this stink on them that i see still in their play that continues...it is why a clean sweep of the club of all it's coaches needs to happen.

 

From the AHL down.

 

GONE! REBOOT!

[pilldoc]

50 minutes ago, radoran said:

https://www.philly.com/flyers/flyers-nhl-playoffs-chances-choked-jake-voracek-20190324.html

 

Echoing his inner Terry Murray, Voracek says the team choked down the stretch.

 

"We had a good push, but unfortunately, anytime we got close - three points, five points - and we played those big teams in front of us (in) those four-point games, we choked,"

 

"I don't want to take anything out of this season, to be honest," said Voracek. "I had way higher expectations. I think everybody did before we walked into the locker room in training camp. It's really disappointing. We have to have a good look in the mirror and straighten some things out before we come in next year."

 

So they didn't expect to stumble out of the gate (again), get the GM and coach fired, and then rely on a 20-year-old rookie goalie to make them even remotely competitive?

 

Good to know.

 

The inconsistent way they play, they're simply not good enough to compete with the actual Stanly Cup competitors on a regular basis. After six years.

 

Yep, gotta "straighten some things out" before next year. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

 

Isn’t that like calling the kettle black... Vorachoke needs to take a good look in the mirror. 

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Vorachoke needs to take a good look in the mirror. 

 

[vis]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Yep, gotta "straighten some things out" before next year. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

That's the most frustrating part.  It's the same refrain for the past several years with this core.  So little progress has been made.

 

To be clear: I don't doubt their desire to win.  I just don't think they know how to win. 

 

They need help in the leadership/experience department.  Not saying Giroux/Voracek/Couturier aren't good leaders.  But they need outside perspectives.  Aside from Giroux's early years, they have not had a legit veteran mentor.  Justin Williams would have been a good signing last offseason.  Problem is that they have a crowded roster and prospect pool as it is.  Bringing in a veteran would would further complicate that.  Unless you move another vet (or two) out.  But I really don't want to blow things up.  There is talent among the forwards.

 

It's not ideal, but a strong coach could be the leader they need.  To me, the next coaching choice shouldn't just be about system and X's and O's.  The coach must be able to guide this team and lead it and command the respect of his players.  I'm not sure Hakstol had those capabilities, which may be why this team (and Berube before him) has been stuck in neutral and, at times, in reverse.  It may be why Quenneville would be a better fit for this team, rather than a guy with a fresh perspective but perhaps paling in comparison to Quenneville's experience and cache.

 

As far as what Jake said, yeah, they choked in those games.  But the damage was done way earlier in the season and there is fault across the board for that.  The early part of the season was a complete organizational failure (except Gritty).

 

I don't think this core can straighten it out themselves.  I think the right coach can help fix that.

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, vis said:

Justin Williams would have been a good signing last offseason.  Problem is that they have a crowded roster and prospect pool as it is.  Bringing in a veteran would would further complicate that.

 

JVR says "hello"

 

I kinda wonder if Williams would have wanted to come back.

 

10 minutes ago, vis said:

The coach must be able to guide this team and lead it and command the respect of his players.  I'm not sure Hakstol had those capabilities, which may be why this team (and Berube before him) has been stuck in neutral and, at times, in reverse.

 

Well, this is kinda part-and-parcel with the decision to a) go with a guy with no NHL head coaching experience and then follow him up with b) a guy with no NHL head coaching experience.

 

11 minutes ago, vis said:

But the damage was done way earlier in the season and there is fault across the board for that.  The early part of the season was a complete organizational failure (except Gritty).

 

And Gritty wasn't a slam dunk out of the gate.

 

But, yeah, six points from earlier in the season wold look pretty damn big right now, wouldn't they? Second year in a row the team has needed to go on a near-miraculous turnaround just to be in the conversation for the playoffs. And we're now one playoff round win in eight years - and that was eight years ago.

 

The freaking Carolina Hurricanes and the goddamn New York Islanders are in the playoff this year. And the Philadelphia Flyers are six points behind the ninth team in the Wild Card forty two points behind the Conference leader.

 

14 minutes ago, vis said:

I don't think this core can straighten it out themselves.  I think the right coach can help fix that.

 

I've stopped speculating. I don't care if they "think" they can do it - or if anyone else does, for that matter. Good for them. Good for you.

 

I'm just tired of hearing about how good they could be. I'm with you - I don't think they know how to win. Until they show me they're consistently winning games on the ice, I'm sick and tired of this "core." Every year it's the same damn thing. Take out the "choking" and you can recycle quotes from the past six years from this team saying the same things over and over again and getting zero results from it.

 

“We're gonna keep building here and we're going to come off strong next year,” Giroux said. (2018)

 

"If we would have played like that all year we would be more successful than we are right now. But at the same time, I really think we're going in the right direction. We have a lot of good pieces here, but it's definitely frustrating."  - Giroux (2017)

 

"He's very likable from the player' standpoint and we had a good year last year," Jake Voracek said Monday. "We lost in Game 7 against the Rangers. This year we didn't make the playoffs, so it wasn't good enough." (2015)

 

''Game 7, lose 2-1, it doesn't get any closer than that,'' Giroux said. ''We did a good job staying in the battle. We have a lot of character in this room, and for a young team I think it's great. This is only going to make us stronger.'' (2014)

 

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

I don't think they know how to win.

 

Yeah only two guys on the squad who knew what that was like by that i mean going to the Cup in 2010. They truly don't know what it is like or what it requires i think. And at times those two guys who do know aren't consistent on showing up on a nightly basis.

 

And most there know who those two guys i am referring to are...one of them has been on a tear for a good part of the last month and a half...the other shows here and there but still inconsistent......they will remain nameless for now to protect their identity. 

[vis]

26 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

JVR says "hello"

 

I kinda wonder if Williams would have wanted to come back.

Exactly re: JVR.  Not a player I think of as someone who brings that "winner" mentality.

 

Williams has ties to the area and believe he has a residence, or maybe his wife's family does, in Ventnor.  I bet he would have come back.

 

Quote

Well, this is kinda part-and-parcel with the decision to a) go with a guy with no NHL head coaching experience and then follow him up with b) a guy with no NHL head coaching experience.

Exactly.  I get why Berube got a shot when Laviolette was canned in season.  The decision to hire Hakstol was and remains a major head scratcher.  I don't recall who else was available, but I'm sure someone with professional hockey head coaching experience was available.

 

Quote

And we're now one playoff round win in eight years - and that was eight years ago.

Not sure if that's a sobering thought or one that makes me want to drink.

 

Quote

The freaking Carolina Hurricanes and the goddamn New York Islanders are in the playoff this year. And the Philadelphia Flyers are six points behind the ninth team in the Wild Card forty two points behind the Conference leader.

To be fair, the Hurricanes and Islanders have exceeded anyone's expectations.  The Islanders have rallied around losing Tavares.  I'm sure a strong, credible GM and head coach go a long way for them as well.  Curious if either team can sustain success into next season.  That's not to say the Flyers are a major disappointment.  Would trade rosters with Carolina or the Islanders?  I probably wouldn't.

 

Quote

“We're gonna keep building here and we're going to come off strong next year,” Giroux said. (2018)

 

"If we would have played like that all year we would be more successful than we are right now. But at the same time, I really think we're going in the right direction. We have a lot of good pieces here, but it's definitely frustrating."  - Giroux (2017)

 

"He's very likable from the player' standpoint and we had a good year last year," Jake Voracek said Monday. "We lost in Game 7 against the Rangers. This year we didn't make the playoffs, so it wasn't good enough." (2015)

 

''Game 7, lose 2-1, it doesn't get any closer than that,'' Giroux said. ''We did a good job staying in the battle. We have a lot of character in this room, and for a young team I think it's great. This is only going to make us stronger.'' (2014)

Holy crap.  That's amazing and sad.  

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

Would trade rosters with Carolina or the Islanders?  I probably wouldn't.

 

Honestly? I'd probably trade the current roster for Carolina, but not the prospects... They're playing their butts off in front of Petr Mrazek and Curtis McElhenny. No, seriously. And they've actually got a "former Flyer" who can coach.

 

And the Islanders got Trotz. I'd love to see this Flyer squad with Trotz on the bench. He has a TON to do with the Islanders. Maybe Quenneville brings that. He certainly has the "winning" pedigree.

 

 

I do get the whole "goalies make teams better" aspect and I do think that Hart can lift them into the "make the playoffs" conversation. But I don't know that he makes them automatically competitive than the serious Cup competitors.

 

5 minutes ago, vis said:

Holy crap.  That's amazing and sad.  

 

Wasn't even that hard to find. 2016 turned out to be a bit of a hunt so I gave up, but you can find "we're going in the right direction/lot of talent/feel good" at the end of the season year after year after year. And I vivdly remember 2014's Game 7 loss to the Rangers being held up as a "good sign" - especially after the Rags made the Final.

 

Whooop-de-effin'-do. You know what? Don't feel good about where you are. Feel bad about it. You think Sidney Crosby at the end of a non-Cup-winning season goes "well, we have some good players in the room and I'm happy about where we're going?" No, he doesn't. He's pissed off. He wants to win. He hates to lose. And he's actually won something in his career.

 

So I like Voracek spitting nails. It's about damn time.

 

Maybe this year is Jake finally getting a fire lit under him. But does that actually change the way he plays, or does it make him play the way he plays harder? Occ notes he tries to be like a Jagr on the puck, but he lacks Jagr's finesse, not to mention ability. (Oh, and Jagr scored goals).

 

So if all Voracek's going to do is try harder I'm not sanguine on the results. He's got to play better and different.

 

And this team needs to learn how to hate losing. Not how to "feel good" about where they're going after they accomplish nothing.

 

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

So they didn't expect to stumble out of the gate (again), get the GM and coach fired, and then rely on a 20-year-old rookie goalie to make them even remotely competitive?

 

Good to know.

Well to be honest, who would have ?

 

I don't mind Jake saying those things, if this is him attempting to become more of a leader, good. 

There is truth to what he said.

 

I find myself agreeing with @vis 1st post, they let Jagr slip away, Pronger got hurt, Briere was bought out, Timonen got old...The strong vets were never replaced and the in house guys are maybe only now growing into those roles.

 

I also think your point about replacing a coach with no NHL head coaching experience with a guy with no NHL experience hasn't been helpful either.

That's 5 years of being "unled" so if the boys aren't buying into what the coach is cooking that's a long time to be the buffer if you're in the leadership group.

 

I don't want to be too Pollyanna here either, I am disappointed with this season's results. 

 

That said, this year started poorly with injuries to the big FA acquisition and all the goalies. 

I don't think Hakstol was a very good coach, I do think this group quit on him in large part because he wasn't setting them up for success. 

 

Back to Jake, I hope he starts holding people accountable, I do think as others (Ruxpin I think) have said that voice is missing.

 

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

That said, this year started poorly with injuries to the big FA acquisition and all the goalies. 

 

Yeah, and before the injury the "big FA acquisition" was playing on the third line with Wayne Simmonds and Mikhail Vorobyev - as if someone thought that was a good idea.

 

3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think Hakstol was a very good coach

 

Oh, right, the guy who thought that was a good idea.

 

3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Back to Jake, I hope he starts holding people accountable, I do think as others (Ruxpin I think) have said that voice is missing.

 

I don't want to harp on it, but Giroux having no experience as a captain at any level wasn't a great choice to "learn on the job" in the NHL.  And that on top of "here, lifelong playmaking wing, play center". He's an exceptional player, but "leading by example" only takes you so far. I do think if he had had a Pronger (as was, of course, "the plan") to learn from, he might have been a good choice after 3-5 years of that. But we'll never know... And I'm not sure how much "teaching" Pronger did.

 

And this is where I don't solely hold players "responsible" - the organization as a whole has been pretty "fat and happy" for far too long. I understand Hextall made them uncomfortable, but I think they need to be uncomfortable. And that's not just the players, that's the "ownership group." (When I was digging up the player quotes, the number of times they have Holmgren saying "we want/are trying to win" is just as prevalent).

 

I just feel like they're always looking for the silver lining in a grey cloud and missing the Katrina-sized storm surge.

 

Zero playoff round wins in seven years. That has never happened before to the Philadelphia Flyers. Ever. In fact, the previous record was five in the Jay Snider Years and Just After Expansion.

 

And every year we hear that the future's so bright... I refer you to my avatar.

[mojo1917]

24 minutes ago, radoran said:

And every year we hear that the future's so bright... I refer you to my avatar.

I'm glad they're not saying this though.

 

[radoran]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm glad they're not saying this though.

 

How did you get video of Homer and Scott discussing firing Hextall?

 

 

[vis]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Honestly? I'd probably trade the current roster for Carolina, but not the prospects... They're playing their butts off in front of Petr Mrazek and Curtis McElhenny. No, seriously. And they've actually got a "former Flyer" who can coach.

Yeah, Carolina has some good young talent.  That team has latched onto something.  I think Williams is getting some of the credit for leading that group.

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

And the Islanders got Trotz. I'd love to see this Flyer squad with Trotz on the bench. He has a TON to do with the Islanders. Maybe Quenneville brings that. He certainly has the "winning" pedigree.

Exactly.

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

But I don't know that he makes them automatically competitive than the serious Cup competitors.

Nope.  They need more.  And it wouldn't be right to lay that responsibility solely at Hart's feet.

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Whooop-de-effin'-do. You know what? Don't feel good about where you are. Feel bad about it.

Yep.  This team claims far too many moral victories.  I don't think the bar has been set high enough for them, at least not day to day.  It's one thing to say at the beginning of the year that they expect to make the POs.  Well, when they aren't playing like a PO team and/or aren't getting points, someone needs to hold them accountable and tell them it's not good enough.  Results matter.

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

But does that actually change the way he plays, or does it make him play the way he plays harder?

Honestly, I don't think you'll see Jake change much, unless the next coach really spends time on him (and maybe limiting minutes).  He certainly won't play mistake- or turnover-free hockey.  High reward players make high risk plays and sometimes those plays don't work out.  I'm OK with that.  But I'm not OK with lazy or stupid play.  Not sure Jake can eliminate those types of plays.  As frustrating as he is at times, he does generate an awful lot of opportunities.  Not every player is Patrice Bergeron.

[mojo1917]

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I don't know how many times (it was countless) i seen him trying to do too much, carry the puck into the zone and get swarmed by the opposition and instead of him making the smart play getting rid of it

 

See I think this is part of the problem, when the Flyers make the "smart play" and get "rid of it"they don't retain possession.

This is a bigger problem, I would actually prefer more people try to "hang on to it" rather than dump and chase.  

Against the stinkin' Habs-Price killed the Flyers by handling the puck & making a pass to a defensman. Rush over before it got started.  

would it kill Jake's line-mates to drive the net ? how about get to an open area to receive a pass?  

 

We see him all the time so we're familiar with the bone headed plays, everyone makes them, I think Voracek is a significant play driver and wouldn't mind seeing more Flyers enter the zone with speed and the goddamned puck on their stick the way he does. 

 

I don't think you'll have a hard time finding a team to "take him". His contract is mostly in line with his production and he has been durable for the most part through out his career, availability being a pretty decent "ability" to have. 

 

Now, I am willing to go down the road of "he's not a guy you build around- he's a complementary player" I think that argument has more validity than he blows let's ditch him for some practice pucks. 

I find it laughable so many people think 93 sucks. 

He doesn't. 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

See I think this is part of the problem, when the Flyers make the "smart play" and get "rid of it"they don't retain possession.

 

First off i'm not saying get rid of it just to get rid of it. And yes try to maintain possession of it as best you can.

 

27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I would actually prefer more people try to "hang on to it" rather than dump and chase. 

 

That isn't what Jake will do though he will go as @radoran put it go into a spot where three guys can easily converge on him with the intentions of pulling off this amazing Jagr like stick work through these guys hoping to make the Sportscenter highlight reel.

 

Instead of making the smart play protecting it until help arrives.

 

Sure if he pulls it off he will make the top 10 highlights of the night but who really gives a f**k about that if it goe the other way and they give up a goal??

 

27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

would it kill Jake's line-mates to drive the net ?

 

Well they have to many perimeter plays for that. Only a few like to do that...Coots, JVR and Coots.

 

Sure Giorux and TK might drive the net if they have it but they ain't hoping for a rebound. And even if they did they would just get the damn thing in close and look to pass it again.

 

27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I find it laughable so many people think 93 sucks. 

 

Yeah he doesn't suck he has some good moments however he has his bad ones too and the more he has to handle the puck the more the chances go up that he will turn it over lately than make something good happen....if he was better at helping out when he does cause a turnover it would make it more tolerable. However the only one who floats more than him was Simmer and JVR.

 

 

[MaineFlyFan]

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

they let Jagr slip away, Pronger got hurt, Briere was bought out, Timonen got old...The strong vets were never replaced and the in house guys are maybe only now growing into those roles.

We forget how important those guys were....remember Briere in the post-season?!?!......Timonen's warrior like status on and off the ice?!.....jagr showing the kids how to work out and eat right!!?

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I also think your point about replacing a coach with no NHL head coaching experience with a guy with no NHL experience hasn't been helpful either.

That's 5 years of being "unled" so if the boys aren't buying into what the coach is cooking that's a long time to be the buffer if you're in the leadership group.

very good point....there have been some "coaching decisions' in the last 5 years that have left me scratching me noggin.....(things like who dresses, player's minutes, timeouts (or lack thereof), handling of injuries, goaltending........ and how bout that Peco Power Play........

 

I think this team needs new coaching throughout (Gord has done alright for a guy with no NHL experience), a true veteran leader/warrior type, and maybe a sniper forward who can shoot the puck really well and does not look to pass......

 

Is it Sept yet?........

[OccamsRazor]

My biggest issue with Gordon is we seen the Phantoms have some of the same issues we see with the Flyers.

 

In consistent play. Underachieving and he never really won anything there.

 

Sure he eventually got them to the playoffs last year the conference finals were they were swept but i just don't think he has enough experience to fall back on.

 

So i think yes he may eventually get the Flyers to the playoffs but that isn't good enough for me i want to win it all.

 

I like at least in Tampa Cooper made his rounds in hockey even coaching in the NAHL and USHL but when he got to the AHL he won the Calder Cup. So that at least shows me he knows how to guide young men a team to the ultimate goal.

 

It's something to draw back on. Sorry but Gordon just doesn't have that. Nor do i believe he will.

 

But yeah if you just want to get to the playoffs then i guess he is your man. But i want a Cup before i die so i think it needs to be someone else.

[brelic]

17 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Sure if he pulls it off he will make the top 10 highlights of the night but who really gives a f**k about that if it goe the other way and they give up a goal?

 

Since January 1, Jake has 34 points in 32 games. 

 

He frustrates me just as much as everyone else.... but we can't just ignore that production. He makes things happen - good and bad - on every shift. 

 

Say you trade Jake - how do you replace a PPG player? 

 

I don't think you'd get a 1 for 1 trade. It would be Jake for a package with multiple pieces. Probably a middle 6 roster player, a draft pick, maybe a prospect. 

 

I go back and forth on Jake. Pre-Christmas, I think he would have been the perfect candidate for a shake-up trade. But now, I'm back to thinking he does a lot for this team, and deserves another year.

 

 

[radoran]

 

11 minutes ago, brelic said:

Say you trade Jake - how do you replace a PPG player? 

 

Voracek's been a PPG player once (almost twice) over the course of a season in his career. Last year (85 in 82) and 14-15 (81 in 82) that got him the contract. He's a .88 per game player over his career with almost a third coming on the PP.

 

He's potted just 20 goals in each of the past three seasons and has never scored more than 23.

 

But I'll tell you how to easily replace him - sign Artemi Panarin. .98 point per game player over his career, and has never scored less than 26 in a season with just 1 in 4 points on the PP.

 

Done.

 

 

 

[brelic]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 

Voracek's been a PPG player once (almost twice) over the course of a season in his career. Last year (85 in 82) and 14-15 (81 in 82) that got him the contract. He's a .88 per game player over his career with almost a third coming on the PP.

 

He's potted just 20 goals in each of the past three seasons and has never scored more than 23.

 

But I'll tell you how to easily replace him - sign Artemi Panarin. .98 point per game player over his career, and has never scored less than 26 in a season with just 1 in 4 points on the PP.

 

Done.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. I'd love for the Flyers to sign Panarin. If they can get Panarin, then they have the luxury of being able to move someone out... though why would you unless what you get addresses a clear need?

 

Get Panarin, keep Voracek, you've added 85 points for nothing more than money and term. 

 

Get Panarin, move Voracek, it's basically a wash and the balance of it comes down to what you were able to get for Jake.

 

 

[radoran]

Just now, brelic said:

 

Absolutely. I'd love for the Flyers to sign Panarin. If they can get Panarin, then they have the luxury of being able to move someone out... though why would you unless what you get addresses a clear need?

 

Get Panarin, keep Voracek, you've added 85 points for nothing more than money and term. 

 

Get Panarin, move Voracek, it's basically a wash and the balance of it comes down to what you were able to get for Jake.

 

 

 

Yeah, I get you. I'm just more ready to move on from the "Won The Trades" legacy. Won the Trades - haven't won a playoff round in seven years.

 

Honestly also not sure they can also fit Panarin/Voracek under the cap and address Proviewit, Sanheim, Konecny. Not crunching numbers at the moment.

[elmatus]

32 minutes ago, brelic said:

Say you trade Jake - how do you replace a PPG player? 

 

He's a streaky player currently on a good run, but he's really not a PPG player. We can't let recent history cloud our judgment of the guy imo.

 

That said, I do get your point. While he's definitely overpaid for what he brings, he's still a top six NHL player in his prime. To trade one of those away we would have to be getting a very good return.

 

I'd be interested in looking at what such a return could be though. I don't know that I'd be shopping him around at all costs, but I'd probably put out a feeler in the off season and see what calls I get. I would do the same with Ghost for that matter. In both cases, these are players who do some things well and other things very poorly and who can't seem to pull it all together when it counts.

 

That said, if we keep those guys for another year then whatever. Coaching is the word of the year. That's really the only thing I need to see a huge splash about in the off season. The rest is gravy to me, and i can understand staying the course to see what a new coach can bring to the team.

[brelic]

5 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

He's a streaky player currently on a good run, but he's really not a PPG player. We can't let recent history cloud our judgment of the guy imo.

 

That said, I do get your point. While he's definitely overpaid for what he brings, he's still a top six NHL player in his prime. To trade one of those away we would have to be getting a very good return.

 

I'd be interested in looking at what such a return could be though. I don't know that I'd be shopping him around at all costs, but I'd probably put out a feeler in the off season and see what calls I get. I would do the same with Ghost for that matter. In both cases, these are players who do some things well and other things very poorly and who can't seem to pull it all together when it counts.

 

That said, if we keep those guys for another year then whatever. Coaching is the word of the year. That's really the only thing I need to see a huge splash about in the off season. The rest is gravy to me, and i can understand staying the course to see what a new coach can bring to the team.

 

The bottom line is that if we don't sign Panarin, I'm not sure how Fletch can move Jake and think this team will be better next season. This is not a Brayden Schenn scenario. Schenn was basically invisible. Jake is the opposite of that. He's a high event player and gets things moving. 

 

Our already-thin RW would be even weaker without a very very good replacement (i.e. top 6 winger).

 

 

 

[elmatus]

3 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

The bottom line is that if we don't sign Panarin, I'm not sure how Fletch can move Jake and think this team will be better next season. This is not a Brayden Schenn scenario. Schenn was basically invisible. Jake is the opposite of that. He's a high event player and gets things moving. 

 

Our already-thin RW would be even weaker without a very very good replacement (i.e. top 6 winger).

 

Honestly even if we do sign Panarin, that doesn't mean we should just be shopping Jake around for whatever. As you say, they don't play the same position. Why not have both on the roster?

 

When I speak of trading a guy like Jake or Ghost, it's much like someone being open to selling their house if an offer comes along that seems great. I'm not necessarily putting the house on the market or pushing the sale. I'm just open to it given that part of me thinks we probably could find a better house.