2019 Off-Season

[AJgoal]

10 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Kapanen at 22 is essentially where Voracek was at 22.

 

At that point in his career Voracek hadn't come anywhere near to "Voracek"'s production, either...

 

And Voracek wouldn't outpace "Ghost"'s production - shortened season excepted - for 2-3 more years.

 

Right. But right now he'd be on your third line. Maybe he becomes Voracek in 2-3 years, and that would be great. Let's remember that the Flyers traded Jeff Carter (admittedly more valuable at the time than Ghost, but that gap is pretty close in the modern NHL) for a young Voracek, with a better NHL pedigree at the time, who projected to the Flyers 2nd line, AND a first (Sean Couturier). The fact is that when it comes to positions of value, Center and Defense >>>>>>>>>> Wingers. Equal production between a wing and a center/defenseman going in opposite directions means the team sending the winger needs to add. If Fletcher trades Ghost straight up for Kapanen, he's not doing his job right. Especially since 3RW isn't a particular area of need. It's a nice upgrade, but C is the biggest need at the moment.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

Right. But right now he'd be on your third line. Maybe he becomes Voracek in 2-3 years, and that would be great. Let's remember that the Flyers traded Jeff Carter (admittedly more valuable at the time than Ghost, but that gap is pretty close in the modern NHL) for a young Voracek, with a better NHL pedigree at the time, who projected to the Flyers 2nd line, AND a first (Sean Couturier). The fact is that when it comes to positions of value, Center and Defense >>>>>>>>>> Wingers. Equal production between a wing and a center/defenseman going in opposite directions means the team sending the winger needs to add. If Fletcher trades Ghost straight up for Kapanen, he's not doing his job right. Especially since 3RW isn't a particular area of need. It's a nice upgrade, but C is the biggest need at the moment.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating Ghost straight up for Kapanen. I've said many times that Ghost - especially on that contract - is a very valuable commodity. More "adding Kapanen" given the Leafs current cap problems.

 

There are many ways to accomplish this.

 

That said, Voracek was seen as something of a disappointment for the Blue Jackets - topping out at 50 points and 16 goals over three seasons. And his first full NHL season (9g, 28a, 38p) was slightly less impressive than Kapanen just put up (20/24/44) albeit at a year or so younger.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to project Kapanen into a 20+g 60+ point guy.

 

As for "third line" the team signed arguably the second-ranked UFA last season with a 30+ goal pedigree and stuck him on the third line for much of the season...

[AJgoal]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I'm not necessarily advocating Ghost straight up for Kapanen. I've said many times that Ghost - especially on that contract - is a very valuable commodity. More "adding Kapanen" given the Leafs current cap problems.

 

There are many ways to accomplish this.

 

That said, Voracek was seen as something of a disappointment for the Blue Jackets - topping out at 50 points and 16 goals over three seasons. And his first full NHL season (9g, 28a, 38p) was slightly less impressive than Kapanen just put up (20/24/44) albeit at a year or so younger.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to project Kapanen into a 20+g 60+ point guy.

 

As for "third line" the team signed arguably the second-ranked UFA last season with a 30+ goal pedigree and stuck him on the third line for much of the season...

 

All true. I think you and I are actually on the same page here. If you're lucky, Kapanen picks up the slack as Voracek begins to decline. I'm just looking at things from a value perspective.

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I can't say I know too much about Kapanen. I haven't watched him much, nor have I heard much about him. So it's hard for me to say.

 

I will say this though, if Ghost is involved, we better be getting a top six guy back. He's worth that much in this league. If we trade for someone who caps out on the third and fourth line, it'll mean we've likely lost the deal.

 

I don't dislike trading Ghost mind you. I've mentioned it here before. I don't know that I'd shop him around mind you. I'm pretty worried Fletch is going to undersell him in the off season actually. I'm not very trusting of Fletch's trade savvy.

I think I agree with this for the most part. I see Kapanen as top 6, personally. But not "AllStar." 

 

I agree get as much for Ghost as you can, but I think the return shrinks over time as the world slowly realizes he's just not that good. 

[AJgoal]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

I think I agree with this for the most part. I see Kapanen as top 6, personally. But not "AllStar." 

 

I agree get as much for Ghost as you can, but I think the return shrinks over time as the world slowly realizes he's just not that good. 

 

Remember what I told you about Gudas last summer? I'm telling you that about Ghost this summer.

[elmatus]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think I agree with this for the most part. I see Kapanen as top 6, personally. But not "AllStar." 

 

I agree get as much for Ghost as you can, but I think the return shrinks over time as the world slowly realizes he's just not that good. 

 

Isn't he? I mean, he is pretty good at a lot of things. Plenty of NHL players have solid careers as offensive dmen and pp specialists, which is essentially the role he can play. I'm also not a big fan of trading players when their stock is low. After the year we've had, I would consider Ghost's value as being lower than it should be. He may not be the second coming of Orr, but he's definitely an above average offensive dman in the NHL. If we trade him now, I think we'll have a hard time getting the return he warrants.

 

Also, what's the worst case scenario here? More than likely he'll be at least somewhat better next year, probably enough better that Seattle would consider grabbing him. While losing him that way would suck, at least it wouldn't mean losing someone more integral to the future of the team.

 

That or Fletch then trades him -- probably for something similar to what he could get this off season anyway.

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I see Kapanen as top 6, personally. But not "AllStar." 

 

I see Kapanen as a valuable long term piece. It took Voracek five years to eclipse 20 goals in the NHL. Kapanen did it in his first full season.

 

If you mean "All Star" in terms of "one of the top eight wingers in the league" he's likely not on that level. But it's a hard term to define with the way the league is playing around with the "All Star" game these days...

[elmatus]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I see Kapanen as a valuable long term piece. It took Voracek five years to eclipse 20 goals in the NHL. Kapanen did it in his first full season.

 

If you mean "All Star" in terms of "one of the top eight wingers in the league" he's likely not on that level. But it's a hard term to define with the way the league is playing around with the "All Star" game these days...

 

So, say we traded Ghost for Kapanen (and whatever it would take for it to make sense). Would your thinking then be to move Voracek as well? What would you be looking to get for Voracek in this case?

 

Or are you fine with having Kapanen linger on the third line for the next while? And is that worth losing Ghost over, when we really kind of need a top six guy who can shoot right now.

[radoran]

Just now, elmatus said:

 

So, say we traded Ghost for Kapanen (and whatever it would take for it to make sense). Would your thinking then be to move Voracek as well? What would you be looking to get for Voracek in this case?

 

Or are you fine with having Kapanen linger on the third line for the next while? And is that worth losing Ghost over, when we really kind of need a top six guy who can shoot right now.

 

Again, not necessarily advocating to trade Ghost. Just to get Kapanen.

 

So much depends on what happens and how. Is it an offer sheet that gets him in at $4.2M and they spend a 2nd to do it? I think that's a solid investment. Going into the 1st and 3rd territory? Not sure that's as attractive.

 

Is that plausible? Probably not. More so because teams don't offer sheet.

 

I'm on AJ's side of this in terms of Ghost's value, no matter what I say when posting as @ruxpin

[ruxpin]

27 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Remember what I told you about Gudas last summer? I'm telling you that about Ghost this summer.

So, am I to assume you considered yourself right about Gudas?  

[AJgoal]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

So, am I to assume you considered yourself right about Gudas?  

 

I know it doesn't say much, but the team did ;).

 

Stats do, too.

[ruxpin]

17 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I see Kapanen as a valuable long term piece. It took Voracek five years to eclipse 20 goals in the NHL. Kapanen did it in his first full season.

 

If you mean "All Star" in terms of "one of the top eight wingers in the league" he's likely not on that level. But it's a hard term to define with the way the league is playing around with the "All Star" game these days...

Yeah, that's what I meant with "AllStar."  Sure, he could make an AllStar team.  I'm just not putting him on the level of Laine or Marner, etc.  

 

I do think he's going to be a very good long term player. 

[ruxpin]

I'm actually on @AJgoal's side in terms of Ghost' s value.

 

Currently. 

 

I'm not bullish on his value in a year or two. 

 

So, if you're going to trade him now, yeah, you don't trade his previous production (this past season still possibly an aberration) for a second line winger.  

 

I'd be tempted given that I don't think it was an aberration (though it's highly possible Gord Murphy screwed him up and it's fixable).  

 

I think it's possible to get Kapanen without giving up something many would be upset about. 

[AJgoal]

@ruxpin the problem is that Dubas is the one GM in the league that I am pretty sure would have zero interest in Hagg.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, brelic said:

 

That's the thing. Trading Ghost doesn't have to mean the organization "gave up" on him. You can have smart hockey trades that are just smart hockey trades. It's not always about being down on a player.

 

Sure but 60+ scoring D men are harder to find than 60 point forwards.

[ruxpin]

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure but 60+ scoring D men are harder to find than 60 point forwards.

Man, hope you're right that that's what Ghost is. 

 

Remember to tell me I was wrong. 

 

I don't think he is. 

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Man, hope you're right that that's what Ghost is. 

 

Remember to tell me I was wrong. 

 

I don't think he is. 

 

They fix this stinking power play he can do it again.

[AJgoal]

I haven't watched much of Kevin Hayes, but looking at his numbers, I'm coming around a bit on the idea of trying to add him as a FA. Last season he put up 1.96 P/60 and 1.01 G/60 at even strength in 13:19 minutes/game, this season he was at 2.24 P/60 and 0.6 G/60 with the Rangers in 13:40 of ES time/game, and those numbers ticked up a bit with the Jets. And his raw goal/point totals have been consistently in the 19/45 area, so it isn't as if he's trading off of a career year - you can reasonably expect him to put up similar numbers going forward. Adding him gives you flexibility at 2C with Patrick, and he can shift to RW should Patrick and Frost solidify themselves into the 2C/3C roles at some point. 

[Digityman]

On 5/6/2019 at 11:28 AM, ruxpin said:

 

I'm not bullish on his value in a year or two. 

 

So, if you're going to trade him now, yeah, you don't trade his previous production (this past season still possibly an aberration) for a second line winger.  

 

I read this article on Ghost today.  I really think (like you) he got messed up by coaching but his raw talents are still there.   I believe Yeo has the dmen this year and I wonder if he will be able to coach out that bad stuff Ghost picked up.   He has the speed, hands and brains to be where he was a just 2 seasons ago.   Add to that they he runs to PP#1 and without him, it's maybe Sanheim...not sure who else.   

 

I'd like to see if Ghost, and even Provorov can return to their glory with some proper (non-Hack) coaching.    And if they do, their value will grow to never being higher----- next year

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

7 hours ago, Digityman said:

 

I read this article on Ghost today.  I really think (like you) he got messed up by coaching but his raw talents are still there.   I believe Yeo has the dmen this year and I wonder if he will be able to coach out that bad stuff Ghost picked up.   He has the speed, hands and brains to be where he was a just 2 seasons ago.   Add to that they he runs to PP#1 and without him, it's maybe Sanheim...not sure who else.   

 

I'd like to see if Ghost, and even Provorov can return to their glory with some proper (non-Hack) coaching.    And if they do, their value will grow to never being higher----- next year

 

Good coaching makes all the difference in the world. I still never understood why Haktard and Murphy tried to completely change Ghost's game. You've got a fantastic offensive defenseman. He was never going to be a thumper or a defensive stalwart, but they tried to alter his game into being a two-way defender. It was never going to work. They needed to put Ghost with a very good defensive defenseman and let him run on offense. They neutered his game so much. You're talking about a defenseman who could lead rushes and make things happen and they ripped that out of him.

 

Vigneault will see Ghost for what he is - a damn fine offensive defenseman and he'll use Ghost in situations that will only enhance his strengths, which is what a good coach does. Mike Yeo will help fine tune the other areas of his game that require some work. I'll give Yeo his due - he's done a good job in terms of helping develop defensemen, so he's got something going on there. And you can bet that there will be times Yeo will discuss things with Therien, who in his own right is a good coach with regards to getting the best out of defensemen. 

 

Now, if the Flyers do decide to move Ghost, I have no issues with Kapanen coming back the other way. It's possible that we could eventually see a Farabee - Frost - Kapanen line that could give the opposition fits. Having those three fly around the ice could be lots of fun and they play that high tempo game that Vigneault wants to coach.

 

As for Voracek, I doubt the Flyers move him. Let's be honest, even though Jake doesn't necessarily play big, he's got very good size, something the Flyers need in the lineup. Until Ratcliffe, Allison and Bunnaman are ready, the Flyers will need to make do with Voracek, JVR, and Lindblom in the lineup as the size guys. Also, seeing as to how most of the forwards in this draft are under 6'2 and 190 pounds, I think Fletcher will try to move the pick to acquire some much needed size on the wings. For instance, a guy like Alex Tuch in Las Vegas would be a great acquisition for the number 11 pick. We're talking a 6'4, 225 pound forward with some skill and is only 23. That's the type of trade they'll need to make.

[radoran]

9 hours ago, Digityman said:

 

I read this article on Ghost today.  I really think (like you) he got messed up by coaching but his raw talents are still there.   I believe Yeo has the dmen this year and I wonder if he will be able to coach out that bad stuff Ghost picked up.   He has the speed, hands and brains to be where he was a just 2 seasons ago.   Add to that they he runs to PP#1 and without him, it's maybe Sanheim...not sure who else.   

 

I'd like to see if Ghost, and even Provorov can return to their glory with some proper (non-Hack) coaching.    And if they do, their value will grow to never being higher----- next year

 

I get the theory and all, but the fact remains that both his breakout rookie season and his 60+ point season happened under Hakstol.

 

Is it that Hakstol gets all the blame and none of the credit?

 

Could be. Could also be that Ghost is an inconsistent player a la a Keith Yandle type.

 

We'll find out soon enough...

[CoachX]

With all the chatter about how often the Flyers deal a player, only to have him go on to huge success, I think dealing Ghost would be a disaster. 

 

Two seasons ago he was untouchable and projected as an NHL great. They should keep that in mind

[Digityman]

On 5/10/2019 at 11:25 PM, radoran said:

 

I get the theory and all, but the fact remains that both his breakout rookie season and his 60+ point season happened under Hakstol.

 

Is it that Hakstol gets all the blame and none of the credit?

 

Could be. Could also be that Ghost is an inconsistent player a la a Keith Yandle type.

 

We'll find out soon enough...

Legit point but I wonder how long it took for Hak to start making his stamp on the team.  Meaning, implementing his style over the course of time thus slowly chipping away at what makes Ghost....Ghost.

[Digityman]

On 5/10/2019 at 11:25 PM, radoran said:

 

I get the theory and all, but the fact remains that both his breakout rookie season and his 60+ point season happened under Hakstol.

 

Is it that Hakstol gets all the blame and none of the credit?

 

Could be. Could also be that Ghost is an inconsistent player a la a Keith Yandle type.

 

We'll find out soon enough...

Legit point but I wonder how long it took for Hak to start making his stamp on the team.  Meaning, implementing his style over the course of time thus slowly chipping away at what makes Ghost....Ghost.

[radoran]

Just now, Digityman said:

Legit point but I wonder how long it took for Hak to start making his stamp on the team.  Meaning, implementing his style over the course of time thus slowly chipping away at what makes Ghost....Ghost.

 

I appreciate the concept - and don't necessarily disagree.

 

What we need from Ghost is what we need from the team in general - more consistency on a regular basis.