flyer4ever Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Pass on Subban. He gives the puck away. We already have that. Also he is on the downside of his ability. Would prefer a solid physical stay at home type player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted April 9, 2019 Author Share Posted April 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said: If you're looking for a right-handed top pairing defenseman, what about going the trade route and talking to Nashville about P.K. Subban. He has 3 years left at $9 million cap hit and Fletcher could offer something around Gostisbehere who has 4 years left at $4.5 million per year and a 2020 1st round pick. This would give Poile $4.5 million in cap space to resign Josi to a new contract. Thoughts? No to Subban. If the Flyers are moving Ghost and a 2020 1st, it best be for someone like Seth Jones or Jacob Trouba. I'm certainly not moving Ghost and a 2020 1st for a 30 year old defenseman making $9 million for the next three seasons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: No to Subban. If the Flyers are moving Ghost and a 2020 1st, it best be for someone like Seth Jones or Jacob Trouba. I'm certainly not moving Ghost and a 2020 1st for a 30 year old defenseman making $9 million for the next three seasons. I would love Seth Jones. I think he's the next best dman in the league, likely as soon as next year. Hell, he may well have been the best this year really. Trouba I don't like nearly as much. But yeah, I would easily move Gost and a pick for Jones. I cannot imagine why Columbus would do that though. Ghost is great, but Werenski is a very similar player anyway. Jones is the most complete dman by far imo. The fact they managed to get him in the first place was striking. It would seem extremely unlikely they'd trade him now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted April 9, 2019 Author Share Posted April 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, elmatus said: I would love Seth Jones. I think he's the next best dman in the league, likely as soon as next year. Hell, he may well have been the best this year really. Trouba I don't like nearly as much. But yeah, I would easily move Gost and a pick for Jones. I cannot imagine why Columbus would do that though. Ghost is great, but Werenski is a very similar player anyway. Jones is the most complete dman by far imo. The fact they managed to get him in the first place was striking. It would seem extremely unlikely they'd trade him now. Oh, I don't expect to get Jones for that, but that's the kind of package I'm moving Gostisbehere for. I could live with Trouba because I think he's really scratching the surface of his potential and that there are issues with Paul Maurice (not the first time I've heard of a player who has had issues with Maurice). I think packing Gostisbehere and the pick, especially to teams that don't have a first in the draft, is very clever and could be a way of getting a very good player back and possibly a 2nd to go along with said player. For instance, Gostisbehere and Philadelphia's 1st for Colton Parayko and St. Louis's 2nd round pick. That still gives Philadelphia a chance to package both 2nd round picks and move up into the first and grab someone. There's flexibility there and more important, it adds a legitimate top pairing right side defender. Picture this: Provorov - Parayko Sanheim - Gudas Morin - Meyers That's a very good looking defense with the potential to be one of the best in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 11 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Oh, I don't expect to get Jones for that, but that's the kind of package I'm moving Gostisbehere for. I could live with Trouba because I think he's really scratching the surface of his potential and that there are issues with Paul Maurice (not the first time I've heard of a player who has had issues with Maurice). I think packing Gostisbehere and the pick, especially to teams that don't have a first in the draft, is very clever and could be a way of getting a very good player back and possibly a 2nd to go along with said player. For instance, Gostisbehere and Philadelphia's 1st for Colton Parayko and St. Louis's 2nd round pick. That still gives Philadelphia a chance to package both 2nd round picks and move up into the first and grab someone. There's flexibility there and more important, it adds a legitimate top pairing right side defender. Picture this: Provorov - Parayko Sanheim - Gudas Morin - Meyers That's a very good looking defense with the potential to be one of the best in the league. Honestly, I don't see Trouba or Parayko as big improvements on Ghost. They would be lateral moves to me. Jones sure, but that seems highly unlikely. Trouba and Parayko are good but not good enough for me to be moving a very good offensive dman and a pick on top of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 1 hour ago, elmatus said: Honestly, I don't see Trouba or Parayko as big improvements on Ghost. They would be lateral moves to me. Jones sure, but that seems highly unlikely. Trouba and Parayko are good but not good enough for me to be moving a very good offensive dman and a pick on top of that. Agreed. I think it's paramount that this coaching staff and Ghost himself figure out what's not working in his game to the point where he can have these wild swings year to year. I would much rather keep him and use another defenseman as a trading chip if we need to - I would think Myers is the only one that would be moved because Sanheim and Provy aren't going anywhere. Ghost was drafted in 2012. How many players do you think have a better points per game average than he does? I'll tell you. One. One player from the 2012 draft year has a higher points per game average than Ghost. 1. Filip Forsberg 2. Shayne Gostisbehere 3. Everyone else 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 1 hour ago, brelic said: One. One player from the 2012 draft year has a higher points per game average than Ghost. 1. Filip Forsberg 2. Shayne Gostisbehere 3. Everyone else Teuvo Teravainen's current season moved him to .6277 points per game while Ghost has .6275 but your point is well taken in any event - especially for the 24th defenceman taken only being "outscored" by two top six wingers. Like you, I'm honestly more concerned with his consistency. Not only the 39/65/37 points over the past three seasons but the +8/-21/+10/-20 swing in +/-. An imperfect stat, but still an indicator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, radoran said: Teuvo Teravainen's current season moved him to .6277 points per game while Ghost has .6275 but your point is well taken in any event - especially for the 24th defenceman taken only being "outscored" by two top six wingers. Like you, I'm honestly more concerned with his consistency. Not only the 39/65/37 points over the past three seasons but the +8/-21/+10/-20 swing in +/-. An imperfect stat, but still an indicator. Yes, my bad. I noticed that after I did the initial calculation. He's 3rd by a nose pimple lol. So I definitely don't want to give him away. He's not a 'problem' even if he's experiencing maddeningly inconsistent seasons. In the right environment, when the team itself is not in disarray, he's a game breaker and has that kind of swagger and energy that is rather uncommon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, brelic said: In the right environment, when the team itself is not in disarray, he's a game breaker and has that kind of swagger and energy that is rather uncommon. I would caution that he's unlikely to repeat his rookie season with an 11.2% shooting rate. That said, if he can be a consistent 60-point defenceman at $4.5M per for the next four, he's obviously a valuable asset. I'm not looking to "give" him away - but if something makes the team better I'd seriously consider it. I do not have such a move in mind and would not move him for Subban, for example. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, radoran said: I would caution that he's unlikely to repeat his rookie season with an 11.2% shooting rate. That said, if he can be a consistent 60-point defenceman at $4.5M per for the next four, he's obviously a valuable asset. I'm not looking to "give" him away - but if something makes the team better I'd seriously consider it. I do not have such a move in mind and would not move him for Subban, for example. I agree. I think he'll be a consistent 50-60pt defenseman when his game evens out, and I'm sure he's got another career year in him. I wouldn't be looking to move him for Subban, but if such a deal were on the table, I'd consider it for sure. I'd prefer a better top pairing mentor for the whole blueline, but you could do worse than PK. Jay Greenberg posted a great article on HB about the Flyers' needs. https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Jaybr-Greenberg/Flyers-Search-for-the-Right-Guys-Need-Not-Extend8230/251/98829 Quote Shayne Gostisbehere has been frustrating, including to himself, but beware of moving this kind of talent to make room for the defensive type needed to steady things down. Even if Fletcher is able to find a taker of Andrew MacDonald’s final year on his contract or chooses to buy him out, the Flyers still will have too many young defensemen for six slots. This is a good problem to have as long as you make the right choice as to who goes. Fletcher said Monday he was willing to take that risk but also cited the 200-game threshold for fairly evaluating a young defenseman. All true, as even a guy who had virtually bulletproof freshman and sophomore years, Ivan Provorov, took a dip this season. How much to pay him now that his entry-level deal is up is a good question among many, but you can assume he and Travis Sanheim are untouchable and everyone else in play to get the right guy.But it has to be the right guy. Hextall, accused of inertia even though he successfully added James van Riemsdyk last summer, was acutely aware of the need for a steadying veteran defenseman who can handle big minutes and pursued a deal for Calgary’s Travis Hamonic last summer. When that couldn’t happen, the GM didn’t just go to the next guy on the list because such a list is short. Among the choices this might be defenseman Jacob Trouba, a restricted free agent on the cap-strapped Jets. Up front, the Flyers have some interest in the Blue Jackets’ Alexander Wennberg, who is signed for a $4.9 million cap hit through 2020-21, very attractive indeed, as would be the Islanders’ Brock Nelson, who will be unrestricted on July 1. He also echoes what Fletch, Meltzer, and others have said - they need to strengthen the C position because Nolan isn't there yet. I'm glad it's being recognized and not left to "someone from within" to fill that role, like Hextall thought. That's just asking for trouble because you ain't got no Plan B. It's always better to have TOO MUCH talent than TOO LITTLE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, brelic said: He also echoes what Fletch, Meltzer, and others have said - they need to strengthen the C position because Nolan isn't there yet. I'm glad it's being recognized and not left to "someone from within" to fill that role, like Hextall thought. That's just asking for trouble because you ain't got no Plan B. Well, Hextall was looking around for other options, but wasn't willing to "sign a guy to sign a guy" (i.e. as Meltzer says "move to the next guy on the list because such a list is short"). Priorities: Head Coach 2C/3C veteran defenceman possible scoring help 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 25 minutes ago, brelic said: I wouldn't be looking to move him for Subban, but if such a deal were on the table, I'd consider it for sure. I'd prefer a better top pairing mentor for the whole blueline, but you could do worse than PK. I'd rather have Ekholm for Ghost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindbergh31 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: I'd rather have Ekholm for Ghost. For sure, but Fletcher can't sit on his ass like Hextall did last summer, he has to shore up the 2/3C position, a veteran D to play with Provorov, a backup goalie unless he's already decided on Talbot and most of all a head coach who will take this team to the heights fans want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Just now, Lindbergh31 said: For sure, but Fletcher can't sit on his ass like Hextall did last summer, he has to shore up the 2/3C position, a veteran D to play with Provorov, a backup goalie unless he's already decided on Talbot and most of all a head coach who will take this team to the heights fans want. Yeah the 2nd line center you can sign in free agency. Ekholm could be your vet D man unless you feel that guy has to be a right hand shot. And the goalie can be solved by reupping Talbot or see if the Canes let Mcilhenney walk then I would maybe sign him to back Hart up. If you don't want to trade for your vet D man then you could sign Meyers or even a Stralman to fill that need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucson83 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 in my opinion, i think the flyers should do the tampa model, strengthen the blueline and let the younger forwards play, trade the high paid forwards for defensemen accept giroux, sign a cheaper second line center and backup goalie. you look every team that's in the playoffs is that they have a strong d core and goalie, we have a good goalie in hart but the flyers need a stronger blueline behind provy and ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 One thing for sure i don't want Mcdud on the squad. You don't have to buy him out but you need to bury him. I am fine getting the 1 mill cap relief and letting him be the "vet" D man down there for the rest of his tenure. Time to move on. Provorov - Myers Sanheim - Gudas Ghost - Morin Hagg - Friedman That is the D at this point. If they acquire a vet for the blueline then 25 year old Hagg making 1.15 mill next year would make a nice trade piece. Sorry someone has to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 13 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: One thing for sure i don't want Mcdud on the squad. You don't have to buy him out but you need to bury him. I am fine getting the 1 mill cap relief and letting him be the "vet" D man down there for the rest of his tenure. Time to move on. Provorov - Myers Sanheim - Gudas Ghost - Morin Hagg - Friedman That is the D at this point. If they acquire a vet for the blueline then 25 year old Hagg making 1.15 mill next year would make a nice trade piece. Sorry someone has to go. They definitely need to improve the D. Some of it will happen over time, but we are talking several years down the road, which is not Scott's timeline. There have been a few articles breaking down Provorov's season, his numbers, and his fancy stats. Bottom line is that they are not good, and guys like Charlie O'Connor are concerned. Could just be bumps in the road... could be that he's been overvalued. That is the danger, because if he doesn't grow into a true #1, then we still don't have one. Maybe Sanheim is that guy? Whatever the case, I like that Fletch has been anti-Hextall in the sense that he openly recognizes that Patrick is not yet a 2C and the blueline needs quality veteran help. How he goes about fixing that is a different story.. we'll see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 @brelic Watching Provorov play this year I couldn't help but think there was/is something physically wrong with him. Did he ever take a slap shot this year? He fumbled the puck, a lot, even when he wasn't under pressure. His legs and skating looked pretty good to me, but I though his hand/eye and upper body were "off". I know he didn't get surgery on his shoulder after the Pens series. My shoulder is screwed up from a middle aged injury after 20 years of baseball/volleyball...and it's affecting me in all kinds of ways, including inhibiting my sleep. Can the Flyers insist he get that thing scoped ? Also, I am glad that Fletcher appears to have a vision for the team, and sees where there are "opportunities for improvement" to synergize with Scott's "bias for action". For some of what I would like to see, some teams need get smoked in the playoffs early...No deep runs for San Jose or Columbus but there they were winning game one of their series. Atkinson and 65 ... Go Knights Go! Go Bolts ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Watching Provorov play this year I couldn't help but think there was/is something physically wrong with him. So if that is the case why is he about to play in the Worlds tournament?? His problem mostly but not only reason is he was with guys who don't know WTF they are doing in their own end. Ghost and Sanheim who has very nice tools in the toolbox when he comes to adding offense leave a lot to be desired when it comes to play around their own net...know where to be and who they should be covering along with knowing WHEN to pinch....countless times this year they have been burnt pinching at bad times...then being weak on the play around the goal. Please they have to eliminate all this stick checking...they have to use their body legally of course to check the puck carrier. You don't have to blow the guy up but they need to learn to slow them down impede his path straight to the net. That is included of know when to challenge guys and when not too. Many times they have done it flat footed and the puck carrier just skates around them. This will come in time with more experience and more coaching but a lot of it is being able to process stuff out on the ice quickly and they are just thinking to damn much and not using instincts. Will they get there?? I have to think they can....if not the Flyers are in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: His problem mostly but not only reason is he was with guys who don't know WTF they are doing in their own end. No. Provorov was not very good this year, and that was on him. It doesn't mean he won't bounce back or get better... just that this year, he was not good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, brelic said: No. Provorov was not very good this year, and that was on him. It doesn't mean he won't bounce back or get better... just that this year, he was not good. I do not agree. Sure he wasn't as good as he was the last two years...but it wasn't all on him. Sanheim was very hard to watch play defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 At least they plan on having Ivan inked to a new contract before he plays for Russia... Defenseman Ivan Provorov will join the team after he signs a new contract with his club. http://en.fhr.ru/news/item/53360/ ...i hope he stays healthy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: I do not agree. Sure he wasn't as good as he was the last two years...but it wasn't all on him. Sanheim was very hard to watch play defense. Agree to disagree then. It wasn't all on him, of course... I just saw a LOT of unforced errors and puzzling decision-making. That, to me, was the most concerning part. But he's 21. Lots of time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: So if that is the case why is he about to play in the Worlds tournament?? What does my observation have to do with this. If anything this supports what I was saying. Playing in the worlds is an honor, if a guy is a little "nicked up" they think it's only two more weeks... Provorov wasn't good, it wouldn't have mattered if he was playing with Larry Robinson, he still wasn't taking slappers, displayed regression with is puck handling skill. His shoulder could also affect how he played physically, so he needs to improve I think a big part of what is needed is physiological and not cognitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Just now, brelic said: Agree to disagree then. It wasn't all on him, of course... I just saw a LOT of unforced errors and puzzling decision-making. That, to me, was the most concerning part. But he's 21. Lots of time. Sure but i don't know how you can watch that top pair and say one guys looked bad and the other didn't. Travis was very shaky all year. He had his moments where he provides offense. But to say one was not good and the other gets a bye is just terrible. They both struggled a lot this year. Ivan is 22 Sanheim is 23. They both have a ways to go in their own end. We have seen Ivan play well in his own end for a solid part of the season even though it was when he was younger. I haven't seen it much yet from Sanheim. And they are going to have to play defense. 4 minutes ago, brelic said: I just saw a LOT of unforced errors and puzzling decision-making. I guess you closed your eyes when it came to Travis then. He did as well. A lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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