A Night When CBJ and NYI Should Make us Mad

[Howie58]

The sweeps should make us angry.  They remind us of how incompetently managed this team has been for 15 years.  In a few seasons, Jarmo Kekalainen and Lou Lemoriello have reshaped their squads to compete with best-of-breed.  They hired top-tier coaches. They've made courageous trades.   They've built teams that are fun to watch, CBJ in particular.  I reflect on it and think of the last line of "The Sand Pebbles," when Steve McQueen asks "What the hell happened" just before being shot dead.  Why do I have my doubts about Fletcher and AV?  

 

 

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

The sweeps should make us angry.  They remind us of how incompetently managed this team has been for 15 years.  In a few seasons, Jarmo Kekalainen and Lou Lemoriello have reshaped their squads to compete with best-of-breed.  They hired top-tier coaches. They've made courageous trades.   They've built teams that are fun to watch, CBJ in particular.  I reflect on it and think of the last line of "The Sand Pebbles," when Steve McQueen asks "What the hell happened" just before being shot dead.  Why do I have my doubts about Fletcher and AV?  

 

 

Until proven otherwise, these other teams have scouts. We have Dave Brown, Gritty and the Nepotistic Kingdom of Snider. I have doubts, but at least they didn't recycle another Flyer from the ol' boy network for head coach or hire a college coach. Baby steps.

[Howie58]

Just now, FD19372 said:

Until proven otherwise, these other teams have scouts. We have Dave Brown, Gritty and the Nepotistic Kingdom of Snider. I have doubts, but at least they didn't recycle another Flyer from the ol' boy network for head coach or hire a college coach. Baby steps.

Agreed on scouting.  I've taken flak for it on the board, but I think Pryor's canning may have been more important than Hakstol's.  AV deserves a year to prove himself, maybe two.  Sadly, I worry about the clay he has to mold.  

[ruxpin]

Oh dear God. It only took Columbus a kazillion years. And we're negatively comparing flyers scouting to Columbus.   I mean look what they added at the deadline. 

 

There's negative, and then there's simply foolishness. 

 

Good lord. 

[yave1964]

I am just glad that CBJ had some success after going for it at the deadline, it is too easy to throw in the towel and give up, trading Bob and Bread would have been the easy thing to do but they went for it and while one round is still only one round it is miles ahead of anything they have ever done before. Hopefully it encourages others to do the same in the future. Teams that sell early or hold their hand and dont add need to take note.

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Why do I have my doubts about Fletcher and AV?  

 

Doubts are fine.

 

No sense till feel otherwise until the prove themselves.

 

Time will tell. All we can do right now is remain cautiously optimistic...I hope this is the right combo I am tired of not getting in the dance.

 

This club has a lot going right for it.

 

It just needs the right kick in the pants and guidance.

 

#fingerscrossed 

[pilldoc]

@Howie58

 

Though I appreciate your frustration, like @ruxpin mentioned, the Blue Jackets and Isles haven't exactly been relevant for years now.  They both had very nice dominating 1st round wins and if anything with the right coaching from AV and some well thought out additions and subtractions, it should give the Flyers some hope that a turn around could come sooner than later.

 

New York Islanders
2000–01	5th	Did not qualify
2001–02	2nd	Lost in Conference Quarterfinalsvs.Toronto Maple Leafs, 3–4[20]
2002–03	3rd	Lost in Conference Quarterfinalsvs. Ottawa Senators, 1–4[21]
2003–04	3rd	Lost in Conference Quarterfinalsvs. Tampa Bay Lightning, 1–4[22]
2005–06	4th	Did not qualify
2006–07	4th	Lost in Conference Quarterfinalsvs. Buffalo Sabres, 1–4[23]
2007–08	5th	Did not qualify
2008–09	5th	Did not qualify
2009–10	5th	Did not qualify
2010–11	5th	Did not qualify
2011–12	5th	Did not qualify
2012–13[h]	3rd	Lost in Conference Quarterfinalsvs. Pittsburgh Penguins, 2–4
2013–14	8th	Did not qualify
2014–15	3rd	Lost in First Round vs. Washington Capitals, 3–4
2015–16	4th	Won in First Round vs. Florida Panthers, 4–2
		Lost in Second Round vs. Tampa Bay Lightning, 1–4
2016–17	5th	Did not qualify
2017–18	6th	Did not qualify
2018–19	2nd	Won in First Round vs. Pittsburgh Penguins, 4–0
		Second Round vs. TBD, TBD
Columbus Blue Jackets
2000–01	13th	Did not qualify
2001–02	15th	Did not qualify
2002–03	15th	Did not qualify
2003–04	14th	Did not qualify
2005–06	13th	Did not qualify
2006–07	11th	Did not qualify
2007–08	13th	Did not qualify
2008–09	7th	Lost Conference Quarterfinals(Red Wings) 0–4[1]
2009–10	14th	Did not qualify
2010–11	13th	Did not qualify
2011–12	15th	Did not qualify
2012–13[c]	9th	Did not qualify
2013–14	7th	Lost First Round (Penguins) 2–4[2]
2014–15	11th	Did not qualify
2015–16	15th	Did not qualify
2016–17	3rd	Lost First Round (Penguins) 1–4
2017–18	7th	Lost First Round (Capitals) 2–4
2018–19	8th	Won First Round (Lightning) 4–0
		Second Round (TBD)

 

 

[brelic]

I'd say that seeing the Isles and Jackets win should make us happy. 

 

It means we're potentially not that far off! 

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

and here I feel conflicted!

 

I am actually happy for CBJ and the Isles.   

 

At least we have Taryn!

[RonJeremy]

On paper we are way more talented than the Isles, they had good goaltending , played as a team and had a good coach, we didn't until it was too late in the season. We have a coach and good goalie now...We have alot of talented young players that just need to be properly coached and utilized and they need some confidence. I predict we will blow by them in the standings next year.

[vis]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

I'd say that seeing the Isles and Jackets win should make us happy. 

 

It means we're potentially not that far off! 

Did you watch how they played?

 

And how the Flyers play?

 

Unless AV can inject some balls and determination into this team, I just don't see the Flyers competing like that any time soon.

[brelic]

31 minutes ago, vis said:

Did you watch how they played?

 

And how the Flyers play?

 

Unless AV can inject some balls and determination into this team, I just don't see the Flyers competing like that any time soon.

 

Yes, there's a stark contrast between those two teams and the Flyers. 

 

I think it comes down to two things - Columbus had the right game plan and they were able to execute that game plan. 

 

For the Flyers, I feel a lot of it comes down to execution. Sure, we need some better players, and probably need to tweak the roles expected of some of our players, but when I watch the Flyers, the majority of the time the execution is just poor. So many needless turnovers that cause a lot of pressure against us. 

 

And yes, this team needs more balls and determination without a doubt. 

 

The hockey I saw in the CBJ-TBL series is night and day from regular season hockey. So much hitting, aggression, and speed.

 

That's why playoff experience is important, even if you get swept. The younger players especially get to see what it's all about, and that regular season play just doesn't cut it come playoff time. 

 

[vis]

3 hours ago, pilldoc said:

Though I appreciate your frustration, like @ruxpin mentioned, the Blue Jackets and Isles haven't exactly been relevant for years now.

 

New York Islanders
2012–13[h]	3rd	Lost in Conference Quarterfinalsvs. Pittsburgh Penguins, 2–4
2013–14	8th	Did not qualify
2014–15	3rd	Lost in First Round vs. Washington Capitals, 3–4
2015–16	4th	Won in First Round vs. Florida Panthers, 4–2
		Lost in Second Round vs. Tampa Bay Lightning, 1–4
2016–17	5th	Did not qualify
2017–18	6th	Did not qualify
2018–19	2nd	Won in First Round vs. Pittsburgh Penguins, 4–0
		Second Round vs. TBD, TBD
Columbus Blue Jackets
2012–13[c]	9th	Did not qualify
2013–14	7th	Lost First Round (Penguins) 2–4[2]
2014–15	11th	Did not qualify
2015–16	15th	Did not qualify
2016–17	3rd	Lost First Round (Penguins) 1–4
2017–18	7th	Lost First Round (Capitals) 2–4
2018–19	8th	Won First Round (Lightning) 4–0
		Second Round (TBD)

 

It's not like the Flyers have been relevant in the last seven years:

 

In that time, CBJ has qualified for the playoffs in 4/7 years (including 3/3 in the last three and 3/4 since Tortorella was hired) and now have a series win.  NYI also qualified in 4/7 years and now have won two playoff series in that span.  Flyers are 3/7 with zero playoff series wins.

 

I think @Howie58 has a good point.  In CBJ's case, their GM was willing to make some bold moves to save their PO hopes and those moves have paid off.  He also hired a bona fide NHL head coach in Tortorella (who, I believe, was still available when Hextall hired Hakstol).  Yeah, this is his first PO round win with CBJ.  But, in 2017 and 2018, his teams lost to the eventual Cup champions.

 

The Isles went out and got a top flight GM and coach this offseason and, in a single year, have turned that team around -- after losing a star player in the offseason.  Pretty solid job.

 

So, it does make you wonder if the Flyers would have had a legit shot at the POs (and beyond) had some moves been made (or not) or a well-qualified coach with NHL pedigree been hired sooner.

[vis]

19 minutes ago, brelic said:

I think it comes down to two things - Columbus had the right game plan and they were able to execute that game plan. 

 

For the Flyers, I feel a lot of it comes down to execution. Sure, we need some better players, and probably need to tweak the roles expected of some of our players, but when I watch the Flyers, the majority of the time the execution is just poor. So many needless turnovers that cause a lot of pressure against us. 

Execution and team play are issues for sure.  But, the also play aggressive and physical.  Those are not attributes I'd associate with the Flyers over the past several years.

 

Maybe slightly off topic, but remember when Hakstol was hired there were articles saying his teams would be aggressive and physical?  And his practices would be tough?  I know it's irrelevant now, but I always wondered why his teams never displayed those traits.  Was it personnel?  A change in coaching style?  Failure to execute?

[yave1964]

I heard 3 different cBJ say they have no passengers and how rare that is.

[murraycraven]

25 minutes ago, vis said:

Was it personnel?  A change in coaching style?  Failure to execute?

 

all of the above!

[brelic]

22 minutes ago, vis said:

Execution and team play are issues for sure.  But, the also play aggressive and physical.  Those are not attributes I'd associate with the Flyers over the past several years.

 

Completely agree. We are a mostly passive team outside of Hagg and Gudas who hit with regularity. And if I had a nickel for every time Patrick peels off a check and just leaves the puck carrier alone, I'd be pretty full up on nickels. He's not the only culprit, just the one that frustrates me the most when I see him. DON'T STOP SKATING.

 

22 minutes ago, vis said:

Maybe slightly off topic, but remember when Hakstol was hired there were articles saying his teams would be aggressive and physical?  And his practices would be tough?  I know it's irrelevant now, but I always wondered why his teams never displayed those traits.  Was it personnel?  A change in coaching style?  Failure to execute?

 

Actually I do remember that... it's a great question. What is the issue? Personnel? Inexperience? Inability to execute? A mixture of everything?

 

[OH1FlyersFan]

Sand Pebbles = Awesome movie!

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Completely agree. We are a mostly passive team outside of Hagg and Gudas who hit with regularity. And if I had a nickel for every time Patrick peels off a check and just leaves the puck carrier alone, I'd be pretty full up on nickels. He's not the only culprit, just the one that frustrates me the most when I see him. DON'T STOP SKATING.

 

 

Actually I do remember that... it's a great question. What is the issue? Personnel? Inexperience? Inability to execute? A mixture of everything?

 

This is a direct result of the crap system Hakstol had them play. The Hakstol system was entirely perimeter-based hockey. Anyone else notice that as soon as Davey Dumb Dumb let them play in the middle, they often took it to the other teams? He was such a **** waffle that caused so much discord. 

[murraycraven]

7 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

This is a direct result of the crap system Hakstol had them play. The Hakstol system was entirely perimeter-based hockey. Anyone else notice that as soon as Davey Dumb Dumb let them play in the middle, they often took it to the other teams? He was such a **** waffle that caused so much discord. 

 

 

I think this is a large part of it as well.  You keep hearing Fletcher and Gordon talk about habits and net presence.   Hak loved to work the puck low to high and most times otherwise played outside the dots.  It was a passive dump and chase system that was soft.   I think this team is going to have to break some big "habits" and that starts the minute camp is underway.   AV has his work cut out for him and that is why I think you do need to find some different players via trade or FA.  

 

Changes are needed...

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, vis said:

So, it does make you wonder if the Flyers would have had a legit shot at the POs (and beyond) had some moves been made (or not) or a well-qualified coach with NHL pedigree been hired sooner.

Until this season, we were strapped by the cap, but I don't think there's any excuse for this past summer or even this deadline. The deadline I'll allow that we didn't want to give up the prospects it would have taken just for a big "if."   At the deadline, we still had a pretty big mountain to climb. But that doesn't excuse the cap room we left on the table last summer. Maybe the options just weren't there last summer. 

 

But definitely agreed on the coach thing. 

[brelic]

15 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Until this season, we were strapped by the cap, but I don't think there's any excuse for this past summer or even this deadline. The deadline I'll allow that we didn't want to give up the prospects it would have taken just for a big "if."   At the deadline, we still had a pretty big mountain to climb. But that doesn't excuse the cap room we left on the table last summer. Maybe the options just weren't there last summer. 

 

But definitely agreed on the coach thing. 

 

That's on Hextall. He was nothing if not dogmatic in his approach. 

 

Or, as Homer put it several times, unrelenting (or was it unwavering?). 

 

Now, imagine if the CBJ deadline gamble didn't pay off. How the story would be different - go all in, forsake a ton of draft picks, and likely lose FOUR major cogs in the offseason. Panarin, Bob, Duchene, and Dzingel.

 

Most of the time, that's what happens - deadline deals don't pan out. 

 

As for the summer, though, I agree, Hextall whiffed on getting a goalie, defenseman, and 2/3C. He was relying on Vorobyev and Patrick, our young D corps, and Elliott and Neuvirth. 

 

 

[ruxpin]

38 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

I think this is a large part of it as well.  You keep hearing Fletcher and Gordon talk about habits and net presence.   Hak loved to work the puck low to high and most times otherwise played outside the dots.  It was a passive dump and chase system that was soft.   I think this team is going to have to break some big "habits" and that starts the minute camp is underway.   AV has his work cut out for him and that is why I think you do need to find some different players via trade or FA.  

 

Changes are needed...

There's definitely all of this. 

 

I've been thinking about something else and I'll float it because I'm not sure whether it has merit. 

 

This might apply to slow starts to the season as well, in some way.  But I've been thinking about their slow starts to games the entire time Hakstol was here. 

 

Some players complained that there was too much thinking and that Hakstol was too complicated.  Is it possible that they started the games trying to do whatever insanity Hakstol wanted, which caused them to over-think and therefore be tentative and a step behind the game?  As the game went on they began reverting back to just reacting and playing hockey. 

 

The problems here would be many. First, they'd often be behind quickly and the game away from them before the revert. Second, players would revert at a different rate, so some would be playing while others were still thinking.  So you'd, in essence, have one team playing with multiple philosophies simultaneously. 

 

Just throwing that out there in the event it makes the slightest bit of sense. 

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

That's on Hextall. He was nothing if not dogmatic in his approach. 

 

Or, as Homer put it several times, unrelenting. 

 

Now, imagine if the CBJ deadline gamble didn't pay off. How the story would be different - go all in, forsake a ton of draft picks, and likely lose FOUR major cogs in the offseason. Panarin, Bob, Duchene, and Dzingel.

 

Most of the time, that's what happens - deadline deals don't pan out. 

 

As for the summer, though, I agree, Hextall whiffed on getting a goalie, defenseman, and 2/3C. He was relying on Vorobyev and Patrick, our young D corps, and Elliott and Neuvirth. 

 

 

Yeah, I agree. I can excuse the deadline. I really can't excuse last summer. 

 

Between coach and lack of anything last summer (JVR, but that shouldn't have been the beginning and end of it), that had to have been a negative message received by players. 

[brelic]

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

There's definitely all of this. 

 

I've been thinking about something else and I'll float it because I'm not sure whether it has merit. 

 

This might apply to slow starts to the season as well, in some way.  But I've been thinking about their slow starts to games the entire time Hakstol was here. 

 

Some players complained that there was too much thinking and that Hakstol was too complicated.  Is it possible that they started the games trying to do whatever insanity Hakstol wanted, which caused them to over-think and therefore be tentative and a step behind the game?  As the game went on they began reverting back to just reacting and playing hockey. 

 

The problems here would be many. First, they'd often be behind quickly and the game away from them before the revert. Second, players would revert at a different rate, so some would be playing while others were still thinking.  So you'd, in essence, have one team playing with multiple philosophies personalities simultaneously. 

 

Just throwing that out there in the event it makes the slightest bit of sense. 

 

Slight edit

 

You know, you might have a point. I don't know if that's why it was happening over and over, but it's a Hakstol hallmark way back to college. In fact, there was an article laying all of that out and almost touting it as a strength.

 

His clubs would always start slow, and ramp it up in the second half, exactly like we saw with the Flyers.